[Mixed Input Bug] Audio Cue always plays whenever you switch input Methods

[AL2009man]

To explain this, I might need to give a bit of context:

Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse, or Mixed Input for short, is a controls method that allows you to use the Game Controller and Keyboard/Mouse at the same time. Normally: you would use a Game Controller on the Left Hand, and a Mouse Input on the Right side of Hand. similar to PS Move+DualShock 3 combo. However, you can achieve the same functionality with Gyro Aiming and/or Trackpad Aiming as a Mouse Input, Azeron Gaming Keypad, Analog Keyboard, etc.

Unfortunately: Most games will typically get confused with Mixed Input being used, as it will showcase Button prompt flickers, Camera Input behave erratically, Game Mechanics/UI get confused or get broken, etc. Button Prompt flicker is often the source of most Mixed Input Issues for most games. Valve Corporation specifically recommends developers (who plan to get their game ready for Steam Deck) to not tie KB/M button prompt switch by Mouse Movement and instead have it done by Keyboard Key/Mouse Click.

Thankfully, Unreal Engine 4-based games tend to be pretty good at handling both Input Methods simultaneously, with a caveat of Button prompts flickers. Returnal is one of those games that support Mixed Input [but with button prompt flicker], and it's also one of the reasons why I was looking forward to Returnal's PC Port: to play with my preferred method...

but what I did not expect was that it throw one additional wrench: UI Audio Cues.

Whenever the player switches Input Methods, an audio cue will be played as a...sorta indication that you switched from Controller-to-KB/M. But if a player is using Mixed Input: this audio cue will play every. single. time. During regular gameplay or traversal: this will become annoying.

to better illustrate: here's a quick, and rushed video: https://youtu.be/5fKdyTmNKus

As there isn't a "official" way to report bugs and feedback to the PC Version (unlike other Sony-developed games released on PC), I'll have to resort to this forum post as a way to hope that game developers who might lurk this forum to pass on to this feedback

Thus, my feedback would be this: find a way to Improve Mixed Input support by not tying KB+M button prompts based on Mouse Movement. Instead: the switch should be handled by KB+M Click/Press [as per Valve recommendations], or add a "Mouse glyph bypass" accessibility option. As the audio cue is tied to Input Switch, this should solve Audio UI cue issues when switching Input Methods,

In my personal opinion: Audio Cues being tied to Input Method switch is a cardinal sin in implementing Controller Support to your game, even bigger than having an Input Switch Notification on the screen, and this really shouldn't be implemented in the first place.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Xariot:

Originally posted by AL2009man:

Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse, or Mixed Input for short, is a controls method that allows you to use the Game Controller and Keyboard/Mouse at the same time.

Don't do this. Problem solved.

Yeah, how dare some people use more than one input device at a time. Go back to playing with wasd and arrow keys.

[Knto]

Originally posted by Xariot:

Originally posted by AL2009man:

Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse, or Mixed Input for short, is a controls method that allows you to use the Game Controller and Keyboard/Mouse at the same time.

Don't do this. Problem solved.

Thank you for contributing nothing to the conversation! :D

[Anna Rei Senpai]

Originally posted by Xariot:

Originally posted by AL2009man:

Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse, or Mixed Input for short, is a controls method that allows you to use the Game Controller and Keyboard/Mouse at the same time.

Don't do this. Problem solved.

Mixed input is very useful for lots of people. On the surface level, anyone with a gyro based controller (Dualshock 4, Dualsense, Switch Pro, Steam Controller/Deck) greatly benefits from mixed input.

It means you can have accurate mouse-like aiming and rely less on aim assist (which this game lets you decrease or turn off).

And on a deeper level this is very useful from the perspective of accessibility. It’s not one size fits all, so some people with certain physical disabilities rely heavily on mixing input devices so they can comfortably play a game. Why don’t you tell them to not do this?

[Mennenth]

Originally posted by Xariot:

Originally posted by AL2009man:

Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse, or Mixed Input for short, is a controls method that allows you to use the Game Controller and Keyboard/Mouse at the same time.

Don't do this. Problem solved.

I take it you don't play in a way that would require mixed input support, so this doesn't affect you. Cool! Play how you want, and have fun. Genuinely!

But here is the thing; the game supporting mixed input still wouldn't affect you, it would only make the game better for those who do play in a way that would require mixed input support.

Gyro controllers have already been mentioned, but it impacts more too. Azeron keypads, wooting analog keyboards, accessibility devices, etc.

We're on pc. When did pc stop being the "play how you want" platform?

Gatekeeping. Don't do that. Problem solved.

[MysticalPotato]

Originally posted by AL2009man:

To explain this, I might need to give a bit of context:

Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse, or Mixed Input for short, is a controls method that allows you to use the Game Controller and Keyboard/Mouse at the same time. Normally: you would use a Game Controller on the Left Hand, and a Mouse Input on the Right side of Hand. similar to PS Move+DualShock 3 combo. However, you can achieve the same functionality with Gyro Aiming and/or Trackpad Aiming as a Mouse Input, Azeron Gaming Keypad, Analog Keyboard, etc.

Unfortunately: Most games will typically get confused with Mixed Input being used, as it will showcase Button prompt flickers, Camera Input behave erratically, Game Mechanics/UI get confused or get broken, etc. Button Prompt flicker is often the source of most Mixed Input Issues for most games. Valve Corporation specifically recommends developers (who plan to get their game ready for Steam Deck) to not tie KB/M button prompt switch by Mouse Movement and instead have it done by Keyboard Key/Mouse Click.

Thankfully, Unreal Engine 4-based games tend to be pretty good at handling both Input Methods simultaneously, with a caveat of Button prompts flickers. Returnal is one of those games that support Mixed Input [but with button prompt flicker], and it's also one of the reasons why I was looking forward to Returnal's PC Port: to play with my preferred method...

but what I did not expect was that it throw one additional wrench: UI Audio Cues.

Whenever the player switches Input Methods, an audio cue will be played as a...sorta indication that you switched from Controller-to-KB/M. But if a player is using Mixed Input: this audio cue will play every. single. time. During regular gameplay or traversal: this will become annoying.

to better illustrate: here's a quick, and rushed video: https://youtu.be/5fKdyTmNKus

As there isn't a "official" way to report bugs and feedback to the PC Version (unlike other Sony-developed games released on PC), I'll have to resort to this forum post as a way to hope that game developers who might lurk this forum to pass on to this feedback

Thus, my feedback would be this: find a way to Improve Mixed Input support by not tying KB+M button prompts based on Mouse Movement. Instead: the switch should be handled by KB+M Click/Press [as per Valve recommendations], or add a "Mouse glyph bypass" accessibility option. As the audio cue is tied to Input Switch, this should solve Audio UI cue issues when switching Input Methods,

In my personal opinion: Audio Cues being tied to Input Method switch is a cardinal sin in implementing Controller Support to your game, even bigger than having an Input Switch Notification on the screen, and this really shouldn't be implemented in the first place.

Sounds like a very very strange way to play and as someone who is ambidextrous I do not see any advantage to using this method. Just use one or the other.

[Mennenth]

Originally posted by MysticalPotato:

Sounds like a very very strange way to play and as someone who is ambidextrous I do not see any advantage to using this method. Just use one or the other.

Ambidexterity has nothing to do with mixed input.

Using both gamepad and mouse inputs at the same time has the advantage of being able to use analog control (joystick for character movement, analog trigger actions such as acceleration and braking for vehicle controls, etc) alongside mouse aiming (which tends to be better than stick aiming).

It's a "best of both worlds" approach to game controls that many people enjoy, especially as gyro is becoming more and more popular.

[MysticalPotato]

Originally posted by Mennenth:

Originally posted by MysticalPotato:

Sounds like a very very strange way to play and as someone who is ambidextrous I do not see any advantage to using this method. Just use one or the other.

Ambidexterity has nothing to do with mixed input.

Using both gamepad and mouse inputs at the same time has the advantage of being able to use analog control (joystick for character movement, analog trigger actions such as acceleration and braking for vehicle controls, etc) alongside mouse aiming (which tends to be better than stick aiming).

It's a "best of both worlds" approach to game controls that many people enjoy, especially as gyro is becoming more and more popular.

It has something to do with it and I get it but I still don't really see the advantage when you can do the same with other perihperals but ok.

[13xforever]

interesting, I do not get any audio feedback when switching between kbm and controller.

Or actually I do, but it's weird, there seems to be some delay between the sound is played again. Like half a second maybe?

[Mennenth]

Originally posted by MysticalPotato:

It has something to do with it and I get it but I still don't really see the advantage when you can do the same with other perihperals but ok.

"ambidextrous
adjective
am·​bi·​dex·​trous ˌam-bi-ˈdek-strəs
Synonyms of ambidextrous
1
a
: using both hands with equal ease or dexterity"

Being able to use a mouse in either hand has nothing to do with whether or not a video game accepts commands from both a gamepad and a mouse at the same time.

Just because you don't see the advantages doesnt mean they dont exist. Telling people to stick to one or the other is dismissive at best, gatekeeping at worst.

[AL2009man]

Originally posted by MysticalPotato:

Originally posted by Mennenth:

Ambidexterity has nothing to do with mixed input.

Using both gamepad and mouse inputs at the same time has the advantage of being able to use analog control (joystick for character movement, analog trigger actions such as acceleration and braking for vehicle controls, etc) alongside mouse aiming (which tends to be better than stick aiming).

It's a "best of both worlds" approach to game controls that many people enjoy, especially as gyro is becoming more and more popular.

It has something to do with it and I get it but I still don't really see the advantage when you can do the same with other perihperals but ok.

I think you misunderstood what "Simultaneous Controller+Keyboard/Mouse" can be used for.

for example: if I happen to have a PlayStation Navigation controller, I can combine it with a Mouse and use both hands for it. This is certainly a better than using a regular Game Controller for one handed.

https://youtu.be/pBFqjAbVZxc

But if you happen to have a Azeron Gaming Keypad or a Razer Tartarus v2: there's that Analog Joystick that allows you to move in a full 360 turn while keeping the "Keyboard-ness".

https://youtu.be/0xio4lr-mRU

But if you happen to have Keyboard that can output as a Analog, you can gain an advantage of Analog Movement controls in games while remaining the "KB+M" feel.

https://youtu.be/_yqgk9LRees

but the examples I listed requires you to buy....money? Don't worry! If you happen to have a PlayStation 4 or Nintendo Switch Controller: there this remapping feature your Steam Input has, and it's called Gyro Aiming. The way how Gyro Aiming works is that you tilt the Controller and the Camera/Cursor will move a bit. Think of it as a Air Mouse or a LG tvOS Remote Control, but better.

here's a quick gameplay footage from IDK:

https://youtu.be/RbdjQ1S-t_Y

you may have heard of this from a little "indie" game called Splatoon. if so: it's basically that: but better.

But we can go one step further: Steam Controller, The main purpuse of Steam Controller is to merge the complexicity of a KB/M and the simplifiicy of a Controller. While it's best suited for Keyboard/Mouse-only games: the Dual-Trackpad method allows you to get the precision of the Mouse...

https://youtu.be/8fs2Yh1PFwM

But combine that with Gyro Aiming: and you basically get pure Mouse-like Aiming controls on a Game Controller. In fact: Steam Deck's Inputs, despite having a Joystick: can be achieve the same way there.

But all of these stuffs I've highlighted? it works best if a game itself allows you to use both Controller and KB/M Inputs at the same time (or even better having either native Gyro Aiming support or Steam Input API Support /w Mouse-like Camera action), but not many games do, thus: we're have to workaround it.

This isn't primary aimed for "physically holding a Gamepad and a Mouse", it's about solving a specific issue that will retroactively allow players with various different setups to play a roguelike game without having to deal with the audio cues-based Input switch.

There's a reason a 17 page forum post [forums.cdprojektred.com]( and a 31.4k liked Reddit post ) managed to get CD Projekt Red to fix a Mixed Input issue* that prevent disabled players from playing Cyberpunk 2077 on their preferred method.

So yeah, maybe telling me to play with only a intended controls method is not a good look and is a antithesis of what PC Gaming is suppose to be all about.

[Colonel Angus]

Nice to know I’m not the only one who does this. It’s driving me nuts hearing that click every time I move. I don’t know anything about modding but if there is a way of finding the audio file that plays when the switch occurs and replacing it with a file of the same name and length but is in fact silent, could something like that work? Just throwing out an idea (albeit probably bad), please don’t shred me over it.

[Moskeeto]

I can confirm I have this issue as well. I've settled with right stick emulation for gyro through Steam Input which works "fine" but mouse gyro would be ideal with the on screen icons staying locked to controller icons.

[Jamiathan]

Yep, I'm playing on an azeron and also get this. Incredibly annoying. Plus you can't hold alt fire and move around normally with the analog stick either, as the game keeps machine-gun dropping and reregistering the input.

[AL2009man]

Originally posted by Jamiathan:

Yep, I'm playing on an azeron and also get this. Incredibly annoying. Plus you can't hold alt fire and move around normally with the analog stick either, as the game keeps machine-gun dropping and reregistering the input.

due to how they handle Input Switches, one of the KB/M-only Settings will conflict with mixed input. You might need to disable "Alt-Fire Toggle" so that it stops "machine-gun dropping".

This is the same type of issue Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2022 Video Game) has with their method of allowing Mixed Inputs.

[Jamiathan]

Originally posted by AL2009man:

Originally posted by Jamiathan:

Yep, I'm playing on an azeron and also get this. Incredibly annoying. Plus you can't hold alt fire and move around normally with the analog stick either, as the game keeps machine-gun dropping and reregistering the input.

due to how they handle Input Switches, one of the KB/M-only Settings will conflict with mixed input. You might need to disable "Alt-Fire Toggle" so that it stops "machine-gun dropping".

This is the same type of issue Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 (2022 Video Game) has with their method of allowing Mixed Inputs.

I'm guessing you mean enable toggle? I've currently got it disabled which is what's causing the issue, as I have to hold the alt fire button. Cheers though, I forgot about that setting.

Another issue I've noticed though is when mashing the "interact" button when running over an item to try and pick it up on the go, it seems to drop half the inputs, so I'll end up running right over it half the time. Haven't had this problem playing on keyboard, so pretty certain it's not just me.