not seeing the difficulty with evilness

[Mighty Joe Young]

I've been playing RTS games for well over a decade now, AOE 1-4, Total Warhammer series etc.
not sure if it's just due to my experience, but how are you all struggling with gold and Evilness? It isn't difficult to manage both, you simply cause havoc on the surface while you strengthen your defenses and some units stay at your dungeon. I agree on hard difficulty it is difficult (but thats the point), but medium? it honestly isn't that bad. I typically start with the Undead and create the prison when possible. starting with horde is extremely easy, so undead is a decent buffer.

[KishiPhio]

Both sides are right on this, it's not 'hard' to have evilness but...
It's just busywork.
Most people just want to upgrade their dungeon but that's not possible in this game unless you're proactive about it.
It's controversial, but I see a lot of people that liked D3's evilness system where you could just chill and have an income of evilness. Prisons give so few evilness that they are barely worth it compared to the 1k evilness given with missions.

It's just unnecessary busywork where you could only have the rts part and nothing else and it would still work.

Yeah D3's evilness system was very simple and maybe boring, but leaving my dungeon litterally every 5 minutes with a timer telling me when to go just to get 750 evilness every 5 minutes and wasting time... It's kind of fun in the beginning but it gets very repetitive the 100th time in EVERY mission.

[AJ]

I think this is a leftover from the way many people played the original dungeon keeper games.
A lot of people used to bunker up and make the ultimate army before doing ANYTHING aggressive.

Most evilness comes from being aggresive on the overworld, so they just lose out on it due to their playstyle.

[KishiPhio]

Originally posted by AJ:

I think this is a leftover from the way many people played the original dungeon keeper games.
A lot of people used to bunker up and make the ultimate army before doing ANYTHING aggressive.

Most evilness comes from being aggresive on the overworld, so they just lose out on it due to their playstyle.

Yeah exactly!
The average joe of RTS is also exactly this way, we get pummeled if we don't turtle (I'm talking about most people, not pros and expert)
So turtling is like at least 50% of the playerbase... And it's normal in what we consider a 'dungeon building game'
It's just busywork you cannot go around even with things that generate evilness because they generate a trickle for 50 heroes killed.

[Thats How We do action in Uganda]

You should get some small passive evilness income for casual players, like maybe some building underground, while more hardcore players would go outside to get even more evilness, to not get outscalled by enemy heroes at hardest difficulty.

[NuraShiny]

I just wish the rewards were more consistent between levels. Some levels lack repeatable secondary objectives, some give you a pittance of evilness and some shower you in it for doing very little.

[400g]

In the beginning i was conflicted with the evilness change but somewhere halfway through the game i came to like it. That i don't have to wait for evilness to tickle in but can just go and grab it is more fun imo. I am more thoughtful on what i spent my evilness, instead of just building everything as in D3.

[MeGa]

Originally posted by KishiPhio:

Originally posted by AJ:

I think this is a leftover from the way many people played the original dungeon keeper games.
A lot of people used to bunker up and make the ultimate army before doing ANYTHING aggressive.

Most evilness comes from being aggresive on the overworld, so they just lose out on it due to their playstyle.

Yeah exactly!
The average joe of RTS is also exactly this way, we get pummeled if we don't turtle (I'm talking about most people, not pros and expert)
So turtling is like at least 50% of the playerbase... And it's normal in what we consider a 'dungeon building game'
It's just busywork you cannot go around even with things that generate evilness because they generate a trickle for 50 heroes killed.

Dungeons 3 evilness is very balanced. At start you must unlock one island asap, and you have small growth. It doesnt allow you to turtle and tech to the max, because that single evilness island gives a decent income only for things costing 200-300 evilness, which are the lower tier upgrades.

Then you get a little stronger, enought to conquer another island of evilness, which generates enough for higher upgrades, but nowhere enough to max all upgrades.

So again you get stronger, can conquer another source of evilness, and around that point you can begin to fully upgrade stuff. It has a clear progression and is enjoyable.

[KishiPhio]

Originally posted by MeGa:

Dungeons 3 evilness is very balanced. At start you must unlock one island asap, and you have small growth. It doesnt allow you to turtle and tech to the max, because that single evilness island gives a decent income only for things costing 200-300 evilness, which are the lower tier upgrades.

Then you get a little stronger, enought to conquer another island of evilness, which generates enough for higher upgrades, but nowhere enough to max all upgrades.

So again you get stronger, can conquer another source of evilness, and around that point you can begin to fully upgrade stuff. It has a clear progression and is enjoyable.

This does not mean at all that you do not turtle, however, that does mean the game incites you to go capture other points if you want your economy to be better so after turtling a bit and being a bit more comfortable, then you can capture these
But yeah, I agree that this system is more progression than "Go kill this. Good. Go kill this. Good. Repeat 5 times on the same ennemy"

[Thats How We do action in Uganda]

I think this game is just too much evilness centered, its not like i want the game to be easier or something, because i would like to get difficulty level higher than "difficult".

Its just feels like every resource other than evilness play way too niche role, in D2 You only needed evilness to unlock higher tier and thats it, all upgrades cost gold, mana, sometimes workshop item kinda like toolboxes.

Now if You dont get evilness, your entire progression just freeze, sure You can get more mana for spells, or more toolboxes for traps, but You cant unlock new things, or upgrade existing except for few first levels/rooms/units.

Raiding overworld should reward you with gold, mana, artifacts, toolboxes, perk potions, and many other different things, i would rather see evilness removed from the game completly or make it only required for some super late game unlocks like vault of might or frost tomb.

[Mighty Joe Young]

ahh okay makes sense guys, thanks for your input! I do like some of your ideas for sure. like in a skirmish match I do believe toggling a small trickle of evilness could be helpful to the average player. (since they give a score at the end i guess the trickle can like be a negative modifier)
Maybe they were trying to find a way to make you not bunker down, but as someone said earlier I suppose that's not how dungeon building games are intended to be (perhaps, again, I come from AOE and total warhammer, so I am not used to hunkering down especially PvP)
speaking on PvP I wonder if they'll add it to this game one day.

[Celery]

The problem with Evilness is;

1. It's needed for ALL research. When combined with..
2. The rate at which it's given to the player is incredibly low this means you spend a lot of your time just waiting for it to come in to tech up. It's a progression blocker.
3. It means every mission plays the same with a few modifiers. Defend an attack -> go to the surface to grind Evilness -> defend an attack -> go to the surface to grind Evilness. You just farm caravans and good beings over and over until you have enough to end the game. It's the same EVERY mission. Boring AF.
4. it also makes it very inefficient to tech into multiple trees. Most missions (if not all of them) you just go Horde or Demon or Undead, no mixing.


This game plays like a mobile game without the "time-skip" microtransactions. Every mission has pacing problems, every mission is dragged out for no reason other than to make the player wait with nothing to do, every mission is repetitious and all comes back to the same mechanic.. Evilness.

Also difficulty is a joke, even on "hard" the game is an AFK snoozefest.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally posted by Celery:

The problem with Evilness is;

1. It's needed for ALL research. When combined with..
2. The rate at which it's given to the player is incredibly low this means you spend a lot of your time just waiting for it to come in to tech up. It's a progression blocker.
3. It means every mission plays the same with a few modifiers. Defend an attack -> go to the surface to grind Evilness -> defend an attack -> go to the surface to grind Evilness. You just farm caravans and good beings over and over until you have enough to end the game. It's the same EVERY mission. Boring AF.
4. it also makes it very inefficient to tech into multiple trees. Most missions (if not all of them) you just go Horde or Demon or Undead, no mixing.


This game plays like a mobile game without the "time-skip" microtransactions. Every mission has pacing problems, every mission is dragged out for no reason other than to make the player wait with nothing to do, every mission is repetitious and all comes back to the same mechanic.. Evilness.

Also difficulty is a joke, even on "hard" the game is an AFK snoozefest.

I'm just not seeing if you say HARD difficulty is a snooze fest when you cannot attack bases. Why wait for a caravan? within the first 15mins of gameplay you should've destroyed at least one base and dispatched 1-2 caravans. just get more into micro battles. most people select all and right click, but you shouldn't be doing that. you need to micro. i never experience the wait for caravan experience on hard difficulty before. My only gripe is knowing i can complete a map with only just one tree half researched.

[Celery]

Originally posted by Mighty Joe Young:

Originally posted by Celery:

The problem with Evilness is;

1. It's needed for ALL research. When combined with..
2. The rate at which it's given to the player is incredibly low this means you spend a lot of your time just waiting for it to come in to tech up. It's a progression blocker.
3. It means every mission plays the same with a few modifiers. Defend an attack -> go to the surface to grind Evilness -> defend an attack -> go to the surface to grind Evilness. You just farm caravans and good beings over and over until you have enough to end the game. It's the same EVERY mission. Boring AF.
4. it also makes it very inefficient to tech into multiple trees. Most missions (if not all of them) you just go Horde or Demon or Undead, no mixing.


This game plays like a mobile game without the "time-skip" microtransactions. Every mission has pacing problems, every mission is dragged out for no reason other than to make the player wait with nothing to do, every mission is repetitious and all comes back to the same mechanic.. Evilness.

Also difficulty is a joke, even on "hard" the game is an AFK snoozefest.

I'm just not seeing if you say HARD difficulty is a snooze fest when you cannot attack bases. Why wait for a caravan? within the first 15mins of gameplay you should've destroyed at least one base and dispatched 1-2 caravans. just get more into micro battles. most people select all and right click, but you shouldn't be doing that. you need to micro. i never experience the wait for caravan experience on hard difficulty before. My only gripe is knowing i can complete a map with only just one tree half researched.

You get about 10 Evilness for clearing a wave/stack of enemies, it's nothing. You also get an insignificant amount of Evilness for destroying a camp/towers. The only real income for Evilness is completing objectives.. which are caravans and good beings.

There is also no micro involved beyond targeting Priestesses first. It can hardly even be called micro. If you think Dungeons 4 needs micro you're delusional and haven't played a real RTS game at any competitive level.

[Mighty Joe Young]

Originally posted by Celery:

Originally posted by Mighty Joe Young:

I'm just not seeing if you say HARD difficulty is a snooze fest when you cannot attack bases. Why wait for a caravan? within the first 15mins of gameplay you should've destroyed at least one base and dispatched 1-2 caravans. just get more into micro battles. most people select all and right click, but you shouldn't be doing that. you need to micro. i never experience the wait for caravan experience on hard difficulty before. My only gripe is knowing i can complete a map with only just one tree half researched.

You get about 10 Evilness for clearing a wave/stack of enemies, it's nothing. You also get an insignificant amount of Evilness for destroying a camp/towers. The only real income for Evilness is completing objectives.. which are caravans and good beings.

There is also no micro involved beyond targeting Priestesses first. It can hardly even be called micro. If you think Dungeons 4 needs micro you're delusional and haven't played a real RTS game at any competitive level.

lol read my o.p.
I have well more experience than you in RTS if you seriously think you cannot micro in this game. and targeting just priestess is NOT what micro means....you select all and right-click i am assuming....petty.
let me educate you since now i clearly know you are just bad at the game. Tents and bosses give enough evilness hands down. Micro is when you select pieces of your platoon/squad and tell them to do specific things like kiting while the other portion walks to an enemy's flank and pick them off.
long story short, microing is like 5-6 little battles going on across the battlefield, you DO NOT select more than 20% of your troops on the field when microing...hence the term "micro". please leave discussions to adults and quit raging due to your lack of experience.... "mad cause bad" again, try to get a few camps within 15mins. it is seriously easy.

[KishiPhio]

Originally posted by Mighty Joe Young:

*I am better than you at rts let me give you a lesson on smth you probably already know*

This is very petty. (I know, my abreviation is also very petty, let me have my fun)
We all know what micro means, but in this scenario ? It means nothing. Dungeons 4 does not have enough difficulty to need to do micro, a single normal hero and an 'elite' hero is not enough challenge for 30 units level 10 to not entirely stomp.

And I completely agree with him, the only good micro semi-needed is targeting the healers because they can be very annoying and drag fight for eternities. Apart from that ? Almost no micro needed.

Originally posted by Mighty Joe Young:

please leave discussions to adults and quit raging due to your lack of experience.

Very, very childish.
Also, you went on about your 'micro' talk by yourself since to us 'average joes' compared to you 'Mister Pro' micro at a single unit level is almost not required. You simply play faster than us and you know what ? Who f*cking cares, what I'm seeing myself is that most of the time I'll just chill in my ddungeon waiting for money to come in cause I just don't want to attack the overground.
Because if I do rush the mission ? The game has no replayability with no random skirmish maps so I'll just have to stop playing. You feel like you're a pro and you micro everything for a difficulty that's as hard or even less as D3's 'hard' when D3 even had a 'Brutal' difficulty, stop thinking you're the sh*t.

Go talk to some people better than you even, you might want to lower your ego a little. There's always better than yourself.