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Furthermore I don't have any multitarget abilities that generate threat that _don't_ do damage (so as to not trigger Counter Mewl), so I have no way to pull threat off of my mages to prevent them from getting attacked. So while trying to keep my mages healed up while attacking the enemies, they poisioned everyone to death by spamming their Poison Kiss ability which does a bunch of damage AND poisons them.
As I mentioned above, this type of nasty auto-paralyze + poison combo is something that in other RPGs would only be on endgame enemies.. Not enemies 1/3rd of the way through.
So my options truly are to just go ahead and blow away all my mana, or die.
If I know ahead of time which flames contained these nasty enemies, I could simply avoid those flames specifically, but there's no way of knowing that so instead I just have to avoid every flame in the area, meaning I'm not gaining any XP, LXP, or Gold, meaning I'm not getting any stronger, meaning the game will just continue to be hard.
I just don't get it. I must be doing something wrong - I can't imagine the game is meant to behave this way.
What's your party composition? How much have you levelled other jobs than your main ones?
The fulcrum of my party is a Warlock/Fencer that has auto refresh and refresh (spell), and she keeps the party's mana topped and inflicts bleed and poison regularly, and my Wizard/Scholar has a torch equipped for Burn status on melee attack. Three DOTs = 45% max HP damage per turn, so usually with the damage added in most enemies will go down in two turns. Counter Mewl may paralyse the Wizard for a turn but the burn lasts for three, so it usually gets what it needs to done. She's also capable of clearing the board with the high tier AOE Fire spell, but I don't typically burn mana like that unless it's a boss fight. The other two members of the party are a Aegis/Warrior and Cleric/Monk for keeping the attention of enemies and keeping hit points topped.
I saw your reply in the other main thread though, and you're right around the spot where I also started to feel like the game was getting a little too difficult for its own good. All I can say is that some of the other areas coming up will start to normalize how the game feels, but you did hit in my opinion the first real difficulty spike.
For money. I finally broke down and doubled earnings in the accessibility menu. I had been hoping to find more gear or for money drops to increase... but prices just keep going up and up. Just buying maps alone is expensive as heck.
If you haven't been doing so already it's a very good idea to check what a monster can do the first time you run into it. As you noticed with "Counter Mewl" monsters sometimes have reaction abilities that counter a particular type of damage.
In regards to dealing with that encounter, I would go into town and purchase a Fang(?) Amulet for your tank so they have poison immunity (the town accessory vendor has them). Another option would be to change your physical DPS to a Rogue and have them stick to using the abilities that cannot be countered. Using a Rogue will also give you access to sleep bomb which is a nice way to buy yourself time at the start of a fight.
Your tank can make due with spamming taunt to avoid the counter reaction. If you aren't running a tank I would encourage you to do so. Being able to control who monsters target extremely useful through the entire game.
If you don't want to deal with the Charmion encounter yet you can head directly south after leaving the Capital. The encounters down that way might be easier for your party to deal with. I will also mention that there's another area you have access to besides the Fields. If you explore the Capital carefully there are hidden entrances to be found.
In regards grinding on normal difficulty, the game does offer an "Assist Option" to boost how much LXP you gain per battle if you feel it takes to long to learn new abilities. All the Assist Options exist to allow you to better tailor the game to your own taste. Please use them if you feel they would make the game more enjoyable. You can find these in the game options under "additional options".
That made it clear to me that physical counter really something you really have to focus on playing around; you can't be half-hearted about it. Maybe it helped I was already using the Rogue's abilities, so I didn't have to additionally deal with being attached to doing something else that doesn't work.
The Warlock passive abilities for regenerating MP and HP help a lot. They were some of the first things I went for when I started getting cross-class abilities in the starting area.
You gain LP much faster when you only have a few points in the class. Also, enemies in later areas will drop more experience towards LP.
That said, I did fight most enemies I encountered (and on Hard), and with my party build and tactics I didn't feel like I had to grind.
One way to deal with counter mewl is to run an Aegis and cover a party member that can use AoE. A unique trait of Aegis tanking is that they can cover counter attacks, and they will continue to cover even when paralyzed. I tried to design encounters such that each class will find use soon after obtaining them, at least for the first half of the game or so.
Of course, this kind of puzzle-like combat encounter is not enjoyable for everyone. Higher difficulties increase the amount that this kind of thing must be dealt with, but that can be considered a subjective preference more so than difficulty.
From reading what you wrote it sounds like you've got a few immediate problems to tackle with your strategies:
- You don't have an answer for MP economy problems and
- You don't have a strategy for dealing with physical countering and
- You don't have an airtight tanking strategy
There are other solutions, but here are a few ideas that might help you clean up your party's synergy to make stuff work.
* Sleep is a good way to take some pressure off and ensure that you can't be countered. Sleep an enemy that you want to stop harrassing you, or that you want to physical attack without reprisal.
* The Aegis passive that starts every fight with a little threat is a great way to get started in most multi enemy fights.
* You can't counter a counter attack, and neither can the enemy. Having a focused target with Counter is a good way to deal physical damage to attackers without triggering their counter abilities
* Take a look at Shadow Cut in the Rogue job. It generates no threat and cannot be countered.
* DOT damage is a good way to save some MP.
* The warlock refresh spell and passive ability can really help with MP preservation.
* Wizards, in particular, are kind of an early game trap. Their spells are SO expensive at the start that, without an MP generation tool, they're flat out not worth using. Consider looking at the Innate Passive abilities of the jobs you have right now, and the warlock Refresh spell, to see if there's a way to tackle that problem if you're running a wizard. There are also some abilities that do MP draining. And using spellbooks as an equippable item can be a way to go if you just want a huge pool to draw from instead. No matter how you tackle it, Wizard isn't viable without a plan for MP economy. Think of it as a mid to late game job.
* Multi-target spells are a good way to get everybody looking at one person. In some instances, like with a spellcaster, that's not the attention you're looking for. In other cases, maybe it is. Think carefully before you use a multi-target spell. And as River Running mentioned, using Cover from the Aegis is a good way to put your tank in front of a very noisy mage and still benefit from your tanking abilities.
* Abilities that inflict attack/magic down on enemies or defense/resist up on allies are very powerful. In harder difficulties or when fighting orange flames those abilities become nearly mandatory.
If any of that helps and/or you want to probe deeper on something let me know. But I know the zone you're in-- that zone is kind of a "party comp check" zone that is going to knock some groups out. The difficulty stairsteps up a little after you've went up to the city. It does sound to me like your current party strategy isn't covering enough of the bases.
Added:
Oh, where money is concerned, I'd be willing to bet you have a trove of stuff you no longer need in your inventory. You mentioned playing a lot of JRPGS, which suggests to me that you probably don't like selling junk. Just a hunch. :D But you may find yourself flush with chedda if you sell off everything you don't immediately intend to use and turn that into some better weapons. Also consider selling things like potions and ethers, etc. The big ones aren't really any better than the small ones, (they all heal between fights one way or another), but they sell for a fair amount.
I think you certainly offered players the tools they needed, at least within the confines of the game itself. The difficulty of a given encounter was certainly conveyed to me, at least. Bigger monsters look meaner, the flame colors are plain indicators that do a great job of estimating your chances. Bosses are big flames and, if you've got a decent amount of gaming experience, you can almost always sniff them out from the level design (with a notable exception for world bosses that lurk in unexpected places).
Naturally you've got to balance teaching the player against the fear of over-tutorializing when it comes to the gritty details of difficulty. I don't think the ducks were a bad approach, myself.
In my estimation the deal on this one is that the Quintar Fields, in particular, are a tricky stairstep for incautious players that were utilizing basic burn strategies. Nothing before that area, even bosses, test your contingency planning in quite the same way.
I didn't get caught at that part because I make and play a lot of games and I recognized the makings of a high-strategy combat system (like sleep being very powerful, but only working once), so I planned for that kind of game. But players that don't have that breadth of gaming knowledge are like to be surprised at that point. Or so I'm alleging!
In my opinion, if there's anything to change here, it'd be forcing a few early, low stake fights that teach the player a lesson in contingency planning. I do think that the early bosses that apply DOTs, like the snail boss in the Delende cave, probably succeeded in teaching the player to have debuff removers.
I am using Shadow Cut with the rogue, in fact it seems like the only way a Rogue can consistently deal damage because its the only way to attack without generating threat. But I hadn't noticed that the target cannot counter if you use it, so that helps.
The other problem is tanking yeah. My tank dies pretty fast in multi-target fights. And then of course when the tank is dead, it takes time to revive it, during which time the enemies are beating up on the rest of my team. It gets out of hand really quickly.
I recorded a very simple encounter that I just went through. It's against two Moss mushrooms in the Quintar caves. I enter the encounter with full HP and MP. I almost wipe, and I finally escape the encounter with my mages completely drained of MP and need to run back to an Inn. I know I make a few mistakes during the fight, but I would expect that a couple small mistakes here and there should be tolerated and not result in a wipe - I shouldn't need to play 100% perfectly in all fights.
https://youtu.be/8D9MDfLKgfY
My party comp seems OK - Melee DPS (Rogue / Monk), Melee Tank (Aegis / Knight), Magic Healer / DOT (Shaman / Cleric), and Magic DPS (Warlock / Wizard). I get what you're saying about Wizard being a late game job, but it's a bit too late for that, I already mastered it on my magic DPS before switching him to Warlock. It could probably be improved a bit, but really, I think something that should be good enough to make it through......
You may wonder why I'm doing physical attacks with my mages at times, but the reason for that is because I need to conserve their mana because I know I'll need it later. Plus the damage they do is comparable to the damage my Melee characters are doing anyway. (Which seems like an indication of a problem...)
At the end of the day, enemies are just doing too much damage and I'm not doing enough. Seems like the solution would be "Upgrade your gear", but as mentioned it's so expensive, I've only got about 10 silver and probably am about to have to spend most of it on healing and mana restoration items to make it through the rest of this dungeon.
If I really do just have to turn down the difficulty to easy.........I hate playing on Easy, that feels like just admitting defeat and like I'm not even playing the real game at that point. Really don't want to have to do that.
Here's the big one that'll help:
--
Take a look at 0:50 and compare the attacks you took to the one you took at 0:30. The one at 30 dealt less than 100 damage on a crit. The ones after protect wore off dealt 170 with a normal hit and over 200 after a crit.
The difference between those came down to your protect buff, essentially. Reapplying protect before it runs out and using attack down stuff will really help you on that front. And using Power Break with your warrior (or at the cost of MP, using the same thing from your warlock) will help a lot.
--
Also, the direct damage from the Shroom Gaze certainly hurts in that fight. It might not be a bad idea, with those specifically, to split them up a little so the Aegis doesn't have to eat both of those non-mitigated 150 damage bursts. It looks like your rogue is part monk and has a bunch of HP to spare. For that one, maybe attacking one of them to draw threat, then using your sneak stuff on the other would help out.
I don't think that party comp has any huge problems on the face. I do wonder what your rogue is getting from monk (no weapons in common and, with a stealthy rogue, little call for self-regens and the like).
Character stat growth is bound to the job you're in when you level up, so it's possible that some of your stats haven't been growing in the ways your current jobs enjoy. That may or may not be the case, but that monk thing has me wondering about that. Just thinking out ideas. If that IS the case, you may be able to correct course by going to the relevel guy in the city. Though, coming from an old school D&Dish background, I hate doing that sort of thing, so I respect it if you're not into that.
One thing I would say is that I found there to be a 'right time' to decide to become visible with the rogue. They have a lot of abilities that do end up generating threat, but they're good. Eye Gouge, for instance, guarantees that the target's attacks will miss. Using that as a way to cover for your allies when they're in trouble can be a good idea. Like at 2:39 is a good example. There may have been times before that where becoming visible would have been a good idea, but this is a particularly good example. Your mages are in trouble, your rogue has full HP and high evasion-- you want them to be the off-tank while Omari is down, particularly when the only alternatives are your critical HP healers.
All things considered though, it DOES seem like you're taking a little more damage than I would expect, and dealing less than I'd expect on a Normal play. Could be gear or leveling path, or both. Something like that. Hard to be that specific with a diagnosis without seeing your levels/gear. :) But your first attack in the video, for instance? I would have expected that do to 300 or more. You ought to be DPSd through one of those mushrooms in, say, 2 or 3 rounds I would guesstimate.
Let me know how it progresses or if you have any other ideas about what it might be.
You are doing a number of things that are making your fights exponentially harder than they have to be. First, by trying to save MP you end up spending more than you would if you just used MP abilities from the start. Second, use blaze not fire. Blaze will cast the burn debuff for three turns and will end up netting you atleast 500 damage against these enemies. Third, use stat debuffs on the enemy. You should pretty much always be using break abilities (power/armor/magic/resist break) instead of bruiser crush. Fourth, get sleep bomb as soon as you can. in this fight you could sleep one mob while killing the other, greatly mitigating how much damage you take or interrupting build life. Fifth, when you are using an ability with CT, before selecting a target you should see on the character track when the spell will actually go off. You don't want to cast a heal on someone who is about to die. Sixth, use eye gouge to prevent damage, this will completely negate a physical attack. Seventh, Warlock passives will help with sustainability if this is something you are struggling with.
If nothing else, open fights by applying dots to the enemy, (burn from warlock and poison from shaman). This will do a ton of damage and continue to be a great way to kill things until the late game.
Where this is concerned, one possible option would be to take that axe off of Marcel and give them a book. You might have one you just found- or there's probably a cheap one in the city. Even a cheap one will add 50 MP to their pool. That doesn't help with Ether uses, obviously, but it does with longevity in a dungeon. And an Inn heals you to max. Also- there's a street vendor in the city that sells percentage-based HP and MP healing items.
I wouldn't consider this a failure, in my personal opinion. At no point in this game was I not provided with enough information to fully consider the opponent I was up against. The game lets you look at every combatants entire stat array, everything they can do with a full description of their details, etc. Maybe it's not for everyone, but I take the time to read everything that a new enemy can do when I first encounter them.
I think maybe the issue with Charmion and that area in general is that there is practically nothing BUT Charmion in that area. Almost every encounter in that zone is two Charmion and a Reginald, with the very occasional bout of two Reginalds. Easing players into Charmion's mechanics by having the closest flame to the zone line be just one Charmion would have been a great way for players that don't want to read the fine print to get an idea of what was going on, and diversifying the encounter pool with encounters that had maybe 1 Charmion and two Reginalds, 1 of each, etc would make the area feel like less of a slog. For me, at this point, moving around in this area has me side-eyeing any flame and prepare myself for the 30th time of doing the exact same sequence of moves to defeat the exact same group of enemies.