'Challenge' Mode; am I missing something?

[Rewdalf]

I just got done with all of the Guild assignments. They were a very varied and interesting set of missions that felt rewarding to complete, and each one made you think and play differently.

Loved it.

Now, on to the 'challenge' modes, and-...
200-300% wave strength? 20-30 additional weight?
It feels extremely hefty. But then, they are meant to be 'challenge' modes. So, maybe I'm just doing something wrong. The strategies I used for the regular challenges just don't work.

If I focus on mining upgrades early, I get swamped by waves 4-5 cycles in because neither of the lightly upgraded 4 dome options can handle 6+ enemies on screen or dispatch any of the heavier ones in a timely manner.

If I focus on dome upgrades early, I end up high and dry on iron because the lower ground takes 20-30 hits to probe and without any mining profit I stagnate and get swarmed.

Even getting offensive drones early, and prioritizing additional defense, the swarms feel extremely punishing. The combination of ranged and melee enemies all coming at once and from opposite ends makes domes like the Artillery and Tesla dome extremely situational to use. I keep hearing people say just use laser dome for everything, and I guess it pulls ahead of the others in mid and late game, but it also tends to lack the raw monster killing power of a marginally upgraded Artillery or Tesla shot (not that I can even get to late game on challenge-...)

So, I just want to know, am I missing something?
Is challenge meant to be a grind-your-nose-against-the-stone, or get lucky with RNG cave gen giving you good early resource?
Should I just be using the same-y meta, and hope for good artifacts early on; and just restart if I can't find any?

I was having great fun up until now; and the only challenge mode I've completed is Iron Contribution, since it doesn't spawn any enemies-...

[Amplify]

Originally posted by Rewdalf:

I keep hearing people say just use laser dome for everything,

I've seen maybe two people here say that at all in weeks. Artillery and probably Tesla are good, the supplement is critical, Assessor has a higher skill ceiling than Engineer so you can get more out of it, and the 300%/30 assignments are generally agreed upon by people here to be a little overtuned for comfort.

[Rewdalf]

I did notice a trend just now, on my 4th consecutive loss.

Regardless of challenge, dome, or upgrades, the thing that ALWAYS kills me is the squid enemies that fly down from offscreen... They are absolute hell because they are an 'immediate priority' as soon as you hear them spawn; and your choices are either drop the group you're currently targeting and hit them before they do massive damage, but then the ground enemies are left unattended and start cracking your dome, or miss them and lose 1/3 of your dome health...

Even with upgraded dome armor and melee damage reduction, they still hurt for 1/4 of your level 2 health pool-... is that intentional?

For the record, I use drones upgraded offensively; they can really carry some of the early waves knocking out a couple enemies you aren't focused on or shooting the worm's projectiles when you get 2-3 of them and can't target them all... but they are never enough later on when waves are a complete washout...

[Rewdalf]

I went through a few more attempts, and my current conclusion is that I am not good enough for these modes.

I haven't even come close during any of the different challenges, it feels like a constant uphill battle that inevitably ends in a loss; and that isn't fun.

So I guess I'll stick to relic hunting, and forget the last few guild upgrades that are locked behind challenges.

[ninino]

Im not sure there are any more guild upgrades hidden behind "challenge" mode in Guild. Ive managed a few and havent unlocked anything new. But I agree in the time of writing they are too hard, not "get good" hard, but too hard. If you dont get incredibly lucky and get everything you need the minute you need it. Or waste 30 seconds to a minute not finding or getting what you need, it can just be over even if you have 20 minutes left of that challenge. Here Im speaking of Iron contribution on challenge specifically, but its more widespread than that.

If I search but cant find iron for just 30 seconds, its time wasted and game over. People will argue this and Im not here for that. The closest Ive come is 175 on challenge, and that is one time. Other than that Ive landed on 140-160 iron and that is with Iron worms and and resource changer working on high. Seems like whatever you choose, something else suffers and you loose. Same with many of the 300% challenges.

[SIUnit]

Normal mode is the fun mode where you can basically do whatever and still win every time. Challenge is the true roguelite mode where you kind of have to think about how to set things up, and even then a win is not guaranteed.

[MegaTrace]

They did nerf some of them and put them on like 200%, those are actually doable and a good challenge. The 300% ones are just plain stupid.

[Tenebris]

Well if you want and unlossable build there
Assesor
Artilery with upgrade tree that increases direct dmg (antiair gun is whatever you prefer)
Gadget Shield with upgrade that suits the challange most usually shock is a good one but on bullet hell def reflect
Hammers for second gadget if the game gives you choice, if not try to get them randomly
that's it, the thing you have to understand it is better to put in dmg first if you need and mine slower than put in mining and loose on next wave cause lack of power.
It's okay to take dmg on early waves but not to much, if you upgrade well you'll reach point in mid game where you take close to no or no dmg at all, i had a lot of times sitting on 1 hp with around 15 cobalt after waves 10 and feeling amazing.

[Tenebris]

one more thing i dont recomend tesla cause it really wants you to invest in it befre starting to do something an you may just not survive early brutall waves of 300%/30

[InkDemon]

Agreed. You're not alone. I'm not a casual gamer by any means, but those are too much. I think you are right that it's more about luck than skill. Since I played one of them several times and got demolished in it every time.. Then played it "one more time", and beat it no problem. The reason? Nothing different other than I just got lucky with good resources early, finding upgrades quickly and getting good options. Which turned it from impossible to actually being a bit too easy. Once I got all the keepers guild rewards I wanted, i stopped bothering with those missions.

[Muppet]

They aren't easy, however I'm an old fart at 54 and have just completed them all using mainly engineer, laser drome, droneyard and shockwave hammer/missile launcher. Some of them were very hard e.g. upside down and they do test how efficiently you can mine and how well you time your attacking items i.e. shockwave/missiles. It's doable and respect to everyone that has a full set of badges

[phadin]

To get the last of the upgrades that matter (I skipped the 'mark the middle' and 'more battle stat' upgrades) I ended up doing two challenge modes. The 'get iron' one which has no combat, and the 'broken main weapon' where you depend on gadgets to do combat. I chose the iron one specifically because combat is out the window so it's entirely on how efficiently you can mine. The broken main weapon also removes a lot of the combat element as you rely on your gadgets to do the fighting for you. Yeah, it's a pattern for me, but it worked.

[Mutant Overlord]

Skill issue. Skill you are missing.

[Osprey]

I almost always choose the resource converter as my starting gadget and upgrade its water conversion as quickly as possible. That gives me enough iron to upgrade my suit to mine faster and upgrade my laser to handle the heavy waves, mostly solving the dilemma that the OP was having about having to choose between the two of them.

Also, finding gadgets and supplements in the mine sooner rather than later is very important for handling the waves. Since I usually play with laser, I'll usually choose double laser, since that makes it so much easier to handle enemies. I can't imagine beating a challenge mode with the laser without upgrading it to double laser. If it's not one of the options, I'll re-roll and hope to get it and may even spend water to re-roll again. This is where it pays to complete all of the challenges on normal mode first, so that you can unlock the rewards that allow you to re-roll and get 3 gadget offers, thus greatly increasing your chances of getting a gadget (like double laser) that you need.

I've also found that missile launcher is helpful with heavy waves, especially if you get the restock rockets supplement.

Finally, dome resurrection can help a lot, since it means full dome health twice after being upgraded and is like getting dozens of free cobalt. Ideally, though, you shouldn't take it until later in the run, after you've fully upgraded your dome health, so that you get the maximum benefit from it.

[Mutant Overlord]

Originally posted by Osprey:

I almost always choose the resource converter as my starting gadget and upgrade its water conversion as quickly as possible. That gives me enough iron to upgrade my suit to mine faster and upgrade my laser to handle the heavy waves, mostly solving the dilemma that the OP was having about having to choose between the two of them.

Also, finding gadgets and supplements in the mine sooner rather than later is very important for handling the waves. Since I usually play with laser, I'll usually choose double laser, since that makes it so much easier to handle enemies. I can't imagine beating a challenge mode with the laser without upgrading it to double laser. If it's not one of the options, I'll re-roll and hope to get it and may even spend water to re-roll again. This is where it pays to complete all of the challenges on normal mode first, so that you can unlock the rewards that allow you to re-roll and get 3 gadget offers, thus greatly increasing your chances of getting a gadget (like double laser) that you need.

I've also found that missile launcher is helpful with heavy waves, especially if you get the restock rockets supplement.
Considering that cobalt is very limited and often you may be very short or them due RNG or just being unlucky in finding them, getting that full health upgrade is a god sent.

Finally, dome resurrection can help a lot, since it means full dome health twice after being upgraded and is like getting dozens of free cobalt. Ideally, though, you shouldn't take it until later in the run, after you've fully upgraded your dome health, so that you get the maximum benefit from it.

Actually I take more often max health dome early because cobalt heals for fixed number PLUS % of your max health which meanns early upgrading max health = your current and future cobalt heals more and that is so much better than healing for less.

[Osprey]

Originally posted by Mutant Overlord:

Actually I take more often max health dome early because cobalt heals for fixed number PLUS % of your max health which meanns early upgrading max health = your current and future cobalt heals more and that is so much better than healing for less.

I agree with that, but no earlier than necessary. I wait until my dome health is near zero, then upgrade it once. That gives it some health, just like if I repaired with cobalt. Then, I wait until it's near zero again and I upgrade it again. By the time that I use my first cobalt to repair the dome, I'm getting the max repair because my dome health is maxed out. What I was recommending above is to wait to choose dome resurrection for the same reason, to get the most health out of it when it triggers.