Escaping fights?

[Shotagonist]

I ran into a soldier I couldn't kill, so I retreated. he followed me over 2000 tiles and eventually I died because I couldn't do anything but run until I ran out of stamina.

[Captain Camper]

Nomad has a sprinting ability when reaching level two that allows you to move at 0.50 of a turn, so you can reach anyone and escape anyone. Found that out yesterday when trying the Nomad class.

I am not sure if this game is any good, so I'm not advocating this is a great solution, and still trying to decide if I should buy the game, but this ability I found in the demo seemed to stick out as extremely useful.

edit: As a side note, I don't know if skills are randomized so maybe I got lucky and that just showed up at level two for me, but it was classified as a Nomad skill.

[The Grand Mugwump]

Did your character have high endurance? I'm trying to figure it out, but it seemed like my troll with high endurance was easily outrunning most enemies, which made hit and runs very effective.

[Artur Smiarowski]

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

I ran into a soldier I couldn't kill, so I retreated. he followed me over 2000 tiles and eventually I died because I couldn't do anything but run until I ran out of stamina.

Some fights will be unavoidable unless you have proper skills or movement speed. There are quite a few to immobilize, speed up, fear, stun, hide, corrupt, and do other nasty things.

Sometimes the best way is to not engage a difficult enemy when unprepared. The very early enemies (level 1 - 3) are usually slower than the player character, the soldier is level 4 and comes from a particularly dangerous area marked on your map.

You can also try Rasimi, they are faster than regular characters, Lizardman (they are much faster on the river), or necromancers since zombies are a decent distraction.

[Mortomorto]

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

I ran into a soldier I couldn't kill, so I retreated. he followed me over 2000 tiles and eventually I died because I couldn't do anything but run until I ran out of stamina.

Some fights will be unavoidable unless you have proper skills or movement speed. There are quite a few to immobilize, speed up, fear, stun, hide, corrupt, and do other nasty things.

Sometimes the best way is to not engage a difficult enemy when unprepared. The very early enemies (level 1 - 3) are usually slower than the player character, the soldier is level 4 and comes from a particularly dangerous area marked on your map.

You can also try Rasimi, they are faster than regular characters, Lizardman (they are much faster on the river), or necromancers since zombies are a decent distraction.

The map isn't informative at all, you just get some question marks withoiut any more information... and I would have refunded the game for the exact issue of not being able to run away but i played 3 hours... i hope you will fix this. I loved the other parts of the game (except weapons breaking too fast)

[Shotagonist]

Originally posted by The Grand Mugwump:

Did your character have high endurance? I'm trying to figure it out, but it seemed like my troll with high endurance was easily outrunning most enemies, which made hit and runs very effective.

as far as I could tell in my playtime, the game is turn based and when I take a step, the enemies take one. I had 16 Endurance fyi

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

I ran into a soldier I couldn't kill, so I retreated. he followed me over 2000 tiles and eventually I died because I couldn't do anything but run until I ran out of stamina.

Some fights will be unavoidable unless you have proper skills or movement speed. There are quite a few to immobilize, speed up, fear, stun, hide, corrupt, and do other nasty things.

Sometimes the best way is to not engage a difficult enemy when unprepared. The very early enemies (level 1 - 3) are usually slower than the player character, the soldier is level 4 and comes from a particularly dangerous area marked on your map.

You can also try Rasimi, they are faster than regular characters, Lizardman (they are much faster on the river), or necromancers since zombies are a decent distraction.

in other words, use one of 2 builds or dont bother because they get killed by enemies in the starting area. Also what map markers, I walked like 20 steps with my second character and ran into a guy who smited me for 10 damage per hit. None of these skills you mention there are in any way feasibly attainable unless you start as Poacher, everyone else has ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and this game doesn't seem to have any useful consumables at all in the early game. Not even CDDA is this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ early on.

[Artur Smiarowski]

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

in other words, use one of 2 builds or dont bother because they get killed by enemies in the starting area.

If you look at the global leaderboards you'll see high scoring players from every profession, you could try asking on the discord channel, there are many experienced players there that could help you.

If you can ask politely.

[kevlap017]

Few tips: early game infinite durablity option are stones and candles, for strength or intelligence. Or just unequip your weapons. it can work and even increase your damage if you were using the wrong kind of weapon for your class (say a dexterity weapon like a dagger on strength class like fallen knight) You can move with some skills like that poacher skill that move you back 3 spaces or the berserker rush skill (you need a target, but a wall or tree works... easy fast travel). Pay attention to casting time, that may be an issue on necromancer for example, as raise zombie takes two turns, also simply turning your head to look around consume a fraction of a turn, so do it too much and a turn is consumed, the strafing keys are useful for that. Map markers show the most worthwhile places to go Xp wise, with the most creatures to kill,so towns mostly. exclamation marks denote overworld bosses locations. If you go far from those, you should be in the wilderness with way less enemies, for example the swamps to the southwest are relatively quiet, with few enemies. Most of the map is static but with slight variations there and there (example, one location i found always has a dwarven settlement, but it's shape is different run from run), so here are a few pointers, north west is the capital city, huge and not recommended before at the very least level 6. east is the desert. South west is the Swamp. the rest I leave to you to discover. an early game dungeon you should aim for is the graveyard near the village of ka-something.

[kevlap017]

Originally posted by Captain Camper:

Nomad has a sprinting ability when reaching level two that allows you to move at 0.50 of a turn, so you can reach anyone and escape anyone. Found that out yesterday when trying the Nomad class.

I am not sure if this game is any good, so I'm not advocating this is a great solution, and still trying to decide if I should buy the game, but this ability I found in the demo seemed to stick out as extremely useful.

edit: As a side note, I don't know if skills are randomized so maybe I got lucky and that just showed up at level two for me, but it was classified as a Nomad skill.

Skills on level up are partially randomised, you always get your class level option , plus two others that may be from another class or an universal skill pool. the variety of skills is good. on level two, i recommend either your class ability if you like it or one of the strong level two abilities of another class for movement if you are not playing berserker, poacher or nomad or frost bolt if you play a caster like necromancer or warlock (warlock especially appreciate the damage variety and a spell that cost no health) Classes I find strong early game: Inquisitor, Necromancer, Cultist, Warlock, Poacher, berserker (with an endurance build demon, it's great! Demon is great for physical builds). Note: inquisitor is OP at level one, unlike the others who get better at level two. Immolate leaves a burn debuff that DOES scale with your intelligence it seems. Its AMAZING for damage and kiting, despite it's low range.

[Briseti]

Why do enemies follow you for infinity. Doesn't seem to make sense.

[Shotagonist]

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

in other words, use one of 2 builds or dont bother because they get killed by enemies in the starting area.

If you look at the global leaderboards you'll see high scoring players from every profession, you could try asking on the discord channel, there are many experienced players there that could help you.

If you can ask politely.

I told you the issues I had with a specific character/build and everyone - including you, making this game - pretty much suggest to play a different character. That suggests to me the game isn't balanced for these options or that it isn't worth playing them. I don't particularly care discussing the balancing of the game, but let me address every point you made:

"Some fights will be unavoidable unless you have proper skills or movement speed. There are quite a few to immobilize, speed up, fear, stun, hide, corrupt, and do other nasty things."

I do not get to choose skills until I level up. And this game isn't nice enough to ensure I actually get to learn any skills before I run into bears/soldiers/acolytes that can (and will) kill me 1v1

"Sometimes the best way is to not engage a difficult enemy when unprepared. The very early enemies (level 1 - 3) are usually slower than the player character, the soldier is level 4 and comes from a particularly dangerous area marked on your map."

If I can see him, he can see me. Conversely, looking at the map the indications for "dangerous soldiers" vs. "harmless peasant" is the same exclamation mark. If I didn't go somewhere before, I can't see whats on the map. The UI could not give me an idea of the level of enemies I encounter (not that it matters because they will follow me forever as soon as they come in line of sight)

"You can also try Rasimi, they are faster than regular characters, Lizardman (they are much faster on the river), or necromancers since zombies are a decent distraction."

Running away early has the risk of running into more enemies. The other thing is that of course that you can't see whats behind you, so its very difficult to confirm you lost an enemy until you turn around which costs you pretty much a full turn to do, So just being fast doesn't seem like the safest option, unless you already explored a large part of the map.

[Artur Smiarowski]

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

I do not get to choose skills until I level up. And this game isn't nice enough to ensure I actually get to learn any skills before I run into bears/soldiers/acolytes that can (and will) kill me 1v1

Yes, it's a truly open world, so you can go wherever you want to. But now you know where bears, soldiers, and acolytes are and that you shouldn't take them one-on-one on your first level. Dunno how you feel about roguelikes, but trial and error, learning, and overcoming challenges is often a big part of the experience.

If I can see him, he can see me.

That's not true, and it's precisely why there is a sight directional marker, and exclamation markers to indicate you hear someone.

Running away early has the risk of running into more enemies.

Yes, if you escape into the unknown. Clear easy areas first to create safe spots for your further expansions. Again, this is an open world, it is very "dense" with enemies and that makes it challenging, that's for sure, but the enemies don't respawn and I'm sure if you approach the game with a clear mind, without thinking about tactics from other games where mechanics work differently, you'll breeze through the first 6 levels in no time.

it's very difficult to confirm you lost an enemy until you turn around

One indicator that could help you with this is changing the music, when someone stops chasing you the combat music stops. It can still wander in your direction so just make sure to stay out of sight.

So just being fast doesn't seem like the safest option, unless you already explored a large part of the map.

To escape you need to break the line of sight for a couple of turns. That's really all there is to it. Run into a bush, then into another bush, and the third one. There's a lot of them in the forest. Run into the dark cave where enemies won't see you and hide, go upstairs or downstairs... Or maybe pick a character with nightvision and play only during the night?

I know that many of us are used to the basic "running away" tactic, where enemies just decide that the guy who's here to destroy the whole world is not really that important, but in Soulash that's just not going to be enough to win the game. There is some depth here and if you're willing to have an open mind and look for solutions then you'll have a good time, if not, then me dumbing down the game won't change anything, because after enemies start magically disappear you'll complain about the gods being impossible to kill.

[Shotagonist]

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

Yes, it's a truly open world, so you can go wherever you want to. But now you know where bears, soldiers, and acolytes are and that you shouldn't take them one-on-one on your first level. Dunno how you feel about roguelikes, but trial and error, learning, and overcoming challenges is often a big part of the experience.

I've played a fair number of Roguelikes into higher levels. ToME directly tells you the level span of stuff you get into. In Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, you have a plethora of consuamble options you can collect early on to pick your own fights. Also you can use stairs to lose aggro and rest outside of sight range without being able to abuse that for ranged attacks. Elden Ring is open world and lets you enter higher level areas, but you also have an item to restore health, enemies will not leave their general area even though pretty much everything save for a few NPCs will try to kill you on sight. CDDA starts you in a bunker, giving you initial supplies and a (somewhat) safe shelter to return to.

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

That's not true, and it's precisely why there is a sight directional marker, and explanation markers to indicate you hear someone.

Yeah and usually they hear and see you at the same time you spot them, save for when you try to stealth, which not everyone can do. Every enemy within your range will turn towards you and then try rushing you to kill.

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

Yes, if you escape into the unknown. Clear easy areas first to create safe spots for your further expansions. Again, this is an open world, it is very "dense" with enemies and that makes it challenging, that's for sure, but the enemies don't respawn and I'm sure if you approach the game with a little cleared mind, without thinking about tactics from other games where mechanics work differently, you'll breeze through the first 6 levels in no time.

You say its open world but in fact it is linear by means of "go here too early and you will die." - except I have not seen any indication of where you can go safely following all the in-game menus.

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

One indicator that could help you with this is changing the music, when someone stops chasing you the combat music stops. It can still wander in your direction so just ensure to stay out of sight.

The issue is that bloodthirsty goats will cause the same combat music as the things that can actually kill me, besides, I'm rarely listening to game music but I guess its required here.

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

To escape you need to break the line of sight for a couple of turns. That's really all there is to it. Run into a bush, then into another bush, and the third one. There's a lot of them in the forest. Run into the dark cave where enemies won't see you and hide, go upstairs or downstairs...

That is not possible if the enemy is already in melee range. It is not like I will know right away how beatable each enemy is. But I guess painfully grinding deaths in the first 10 minutes until you're allowed to do anything seems to be the M.O. of this game.

Originally posted by Artur Smiarowski:

I know that many of us are used to the basic "running away" tactic, where enemies just decide that the guy who's here to destroy the whole world is not really that important, but in Soulash that's just not going to be enough to win the game. There is some depth here and if you're willing to have an open mind and look for solutions then you'll have a good time, if not, then me dumbing down the game won't change anything, because after enemies start magically disappear you'll complain about the gods being impossible to kill.

I suggest you not responding to criticism if you think this lowly of everyone offering it. I've played very hard games before, but you seem to think unfun, punishing mechanics are the point of roguelikes whereas many other roguelikes - even very hard ones like Dungeon Crawl and CDDA - understand you need to give the player some footing to stand on starting out before you roll up the challenge. Instead, you shoot down everything that amounts to "this mechanic is too much" and will probably make this game harder because your ego doesn't allow you to open up your game to a wider playerbase. In fact, I think you are probably proud of how many people you repel with your game mechanics and its probably part of your established players fun to be smug about being able to navigate these unfair mechanics unlike people who came here to have fun.

[Total Oh No]

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

I suggest you not responding to criticism if you think this lowly of everyone offering it.

I'm honestly surprised the dev has been responding to you as helpfully and thoroughly as he has, because this thread reads to me a lot like you played the game for 1-2 hours, died to an early game enemy and then want to talk about game balance. I just started playing the game, too, and I agree that the early game is tough, but I'm already at a point where soldiers aren't a problem anymore, so it's not exactly insurmountable.

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

... even very hard ones like Dungeon Crawl ...

DCSS is very hard? I consider it one of the easier ones, but I guess you're talking about the more challenging character types and victory routes.

[AshaMarie]

Hmm, reading these forums and all had me on fence rather or not to try game myself. Couple buds of mine really like the game but money is a factor so I have to pick my apples carefully. Is the map static or random? It can be lot easier to learn if it's static.

[Shotagonist]

Originally posted by Total Oh No:

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

I suggest you not responding to criticism if you think this lowly of everyone offering it.

I'm honestly surprised the dev has been responding to you as helpfully and thoroughly as he has, because this thread reads to me a lot like you played the game for 1-2 hours, died to an early game enemy and then want to talk about game balance. I just started playing the game, too, and I agree that the early game is tough, but I'm already at a point where soldiers aren't a problem anymore, so it's not exactly insurmountable.

Originally posted by Shotagonist:

... even very hard ones like Dungeon Crawl ...

DCSS is very hard? I consider it one of the easier ones, but I guess you're talking about the more challenging character types and victory routes.

You have a 2 hour refund window so I have to go by that. Most games manage to show me something I'm looking forward to in 2 hours, this game didn't. I also didn't specifically talk about balance, and more about issues I have with the design. The "enemies mercilessly chase you down forever" mechanic would still be an issue if I was able to handle them, in fact its even more silly because everyone just runs into the meatgrinder, rimworld style.

DCSS isn't hard if you compare it to hardcore roguelikes like CDDA, but its certainly not an easy game if you compare it to games outside the genre. And yes, DCSS has ways to easily find your footing without making the game uninteresting to people seeking a higher challenge. I named it specifically because it makes you have interesting decision points even early on via consumables, prayers and of course your own player skills (which are by far more numerous in DCSS, but I'm not asking every game to have that amount of options, that'd be silly)

That's perhaps my main thing, there is a lot of unfun systems in this game but I'm not seeing anything that looks like it could be fun. At least, as fun as for me to overlook the glaring issues I have with the game. I'm willing to discuss what bothers me at length because I don't want to be like "your game sucks, ♥♥♥♥ you" and instead provide feedback. But right now it seems like its by design that the early game sucks to play.