Magic is Useless?

[PrawnWonton]

I certainly do not feel like a 'Master' of magic. It seems that the majority of magic is utterly useless. Please, someone, show me how I'm wrong. I was hoping to be a bad-ass mage, but it doesn't feel like it.

Specifically, offensive spells or debuffs are particularly useless. Most units have pretty high resists, which means the majority of your spells will fail. And despite owning a third of the entire map, still only really able to cast a few spells each combat. If offensive nukes or debuffs are used, most of those fail, which is a waste of time and mana and casting points. So you are left with just self-buffs. Which is lame.

What is the point of direct damage nukes or debuffs is the enemy resists them the majority of the time? There are tons of spells (mostly all reskins) devoted to offense, but I have been unable to make them useful aside from occasionally maybe helping to clear a node from neutral mobs here and there if RNG is on your side.

Only thing I can quasi-reliably do is cast counter-magic pumped up on the first turn, and hope it actually does anything. This is in an attempt to counter the enemy buffing their units repeatedly. Which leave not much casting points left over for any sort of offense or debuff spell, and they nearly always fail, regardless.

So it seems that counter-magic and buffing spells are the absolute way to go, and offensive spells should never be used. That just seems so wrong to me, but it appears that is how it works. I realize there are artifacts that pierce resistances, but the chances of getting a useful artifact that you can actually use is slim to none. And you shouldn't have to rely on artifact RNG to be able to drop a fireball reliably.

[archonsod]

Originally posted by PrawnWonton:

Specifically, offensive spells or debuffs are particularly useless. Most units have pretty high resists, which means the majority of your spells will fail

Generally, offensive spells roll against defence rather than resist, debuffs tend to target resist, though there's exceptions to either.

And despite owning a third of the entire map, still only really able to cast a few spells each combat.

That's controlled by your casting skill. You can increase it via the magic screen (the icon with three test tubes). Basically you generate power income each turn from nodes, religious buildings and for some races population. That's split between casting skill, research and mana income. You can play with the ratio's in the magic screen - it's fairly common when you want to cast the spell of mastery to ditch research entirely for example.
Though assuming they kept the same ratio's note that there's a diminishing returns effect on casting skill; in order to raise the skill by one point you need to invest double your current level in points.

What is the point of direct damage nukes or debuffs is the enemy resists them the majority of the time?

They don't? You need to make sure you're using the right tool for the job though; hitting a unit with Fire Immunity with a fireball isn't likely to do much good. Equally, check the spell description to see how it works - fireball for example does a strength 5 attack (with +1 strength for every 3 additional points) against every figure in a unit. Firebolt on the other hand is a single strength 5 attack (which increases by 1 for each additional point). There's some important ramifications with how each spell distributes it's damage; with firebolt, the top figure in the unit makes a single defence roll and then takes the damage; if the damage is sufficient to kill that figure then the remaining damage becomes a new attack on the next figure which gets a new defence roll. Fireball on the other hand hits each figure at the same time, so every figure rolls it's defence against the strength of the fireball attack, and any which take sufficient damage to die are removed.
Compare that to Doom Bolt, which does a flat 10 damage without a to hit roll and completely bypasses the target's defences (unless of course they have magic immunity).

So it seems that counter-magic and buffing spells are the absolute way to go, and offensive spells should never be used. That just seems so wrong to me, but it appears that is how it works.

Depends on how you're using them. The key thing to check is the attack strength - the only difference between a firebolt and a regular strength 5 bow attack is that one deals fire damage rather than ranged damage. It still has to roll to hit, the target still gets to roll their defence. So if the target has low defence it's usually fine; if on the other hand they have high defence you're unlikely to do much unless you boost the power of the spell.
Unless they've altered the combat algorithms note that it does skew towards defence; an attack has a base 20% to hit, while a block is at a base of 30%. So on average, a regular, unboosted fireball at strength 5 will roll 1 hit, which will on average be blocked by anything with a defence of 4 or higher (though even a defence of 3 will block the damage more often than not). At a full boost (60) that fireball becomes strength 25, doing on average 5 hits, so would require a defence of 17 to nullify.

[cmcinotto]

If you want more casting skill - run with alchemy and set your mana to near zero and lock it there - then you will get research and a higher casting skill - focus on gold and transmute every other turn for mana

[jephrey64]

Yeah, magic resistance concerns me a little. A resist of 5 is common, and that means a 50% chance to negate expensive spells. It's pretty easy to spend all your casting skill to no effect. The manual does not say if anything modifies that chance. But it makes me think casting a great big firebolt, say 20 damage, against swordsmen with one hp each, means the first swordsman is 50% likely to negate all of that damage. I can't be sure, but I've had spells fizzle and make me wonder if the poster is correct and I should just do buffs and non-offensive spells. I need more samples of the rng.

[Morgian]

And get your hero mages an item or to with a penalty to resists and let them cast the spells with resistance rolls. You can enchant them yourself, too.

Magic is more often resisted as not, as it was in the original. The idea is that it applies to the player, too. Nobody is happy, if his elite units get killed by a single bad roll...although there was Cracks Call, which did that (flat chance to kill your decked out arch hero).

Another thing is to cast attack spells overland right before the battle. You nuke the enemy stack and move in with yours the same turn, assuming you already have one of those spells. And take a look at global enchantments, some of them used to be quite powerful - or annoying if you were on the receiving end.

Buffs are always the best spells - in any game - because they don't get resisted and always work. It is inherent to the category to be that way, Just as attack spells will always have some form of defense against them. Sometimes there are ways to boost the attack, but not in all games. Games like Ultima, where a deathbolt simply was your end, were rare to begin with and non-existent by now.

[archonsod]

Originally posted by jephrey64:

But it makes me think casting a great big firebolt, say 20 damage, against swordsmen with one hp each, means the first swordsman is 50% likely to negate all of that damage.

Resistance doesn't affect damage. Resistance is used against things like Disintegrate, Holy Word, Banish and similar effects. Spells that do damage (life drain and one or two others apart) work in the exact same way a regular attack does, they roll to hit, the target rolls to defend. Your problem there is targeting swordsmen, since Firebolt counts as a ranged attack they get to use Large Shield (+2 defence). So on a 20 strength firebolt you'll average 4 hits, against a basic swordsman's defence of 4 (2 +2 from large shield) meaning on average, he'll block 1.3 of that damage (which in most cases, kills the first swordsman and then applies a 1.7 attack to the next swordsman, who'll usually block 1.3 and take the remaining .4 damage. Which is why fireball would have been a better option :P).

I can't be sure, but I've had spells fizzle and make me wonder if the poster is correct and I should just do buffs and non-offensive spells. I need more samples of the rng.

It's just the RNG. If the Firebolt is rolling 20 die it has the potential to generate anywhere between 0 to 20 hits; since ranged to hit by default is 20% then on an average distribution it'll generate 4 hits. Similarly, if you're rolling four defence die you've the potential to block anywhere between 0 to 4 hits, with the average distribution at the default 30% block chance being 1.3. Key thing to note there is the skew; the default block chance is 30% while your default hit chance is only 20%, or in other words you're 1/3rd more likely to successfully block a hit than you are to create a hit in the first place.

[jephrey64]

Okay, right. I think you said that before about defense for damage spells, and it didn't sink in. Thank you, good clarification.

[Owl->208]

I find magic to be very useful. Archonsod above mentioned the right tool for the job and that is a good way to look at it. Your magic is really most powerful as an enabler, assisting you in accomplishing a goal. At the earlier stages of the game, your magic is best used to buff your units, which are weak. This is surprisingly useful even endgame. Casting a spell like endurance for example is really helpful in exploring the map. Many spells like holy weapon, flame weapon, holy armor, stone skin, etc. all can buff your army units to significant strength, Many of these buffs stack, too. These buffed units allow you to clear ruins, temples and even dungeons around your capitol. This in turn gets your units extra mana, gold and xp. as well as your magician fame. Expansion is critical early in the game as well, so spells can help with that as well. The list is endless really. Take a good look at all the spells in the game manual and you'll see what I mean. I'd say at least 1/4 are unit spells. Much more effective to use these than say a damage spell which may be resisted by a node or be ineffective. Some though, like starfire, can be effective against the dead - and what do you find in ruins and dungeons? Again, the right tool for the job,

As for direct combat, early in the game, spells like web can also be incredibly useful. Web and Entangle holds enemies in stasis or reduces their movement while you pummel them or others and can grant you victory instead of defeat. Spells that alter the terrain makes it hard for melee enemies to get to your army units. Late game there are many powerful spells like cracks call, lightning, etc. etc. Its all about using the right spell in the right situation. Do not underestimate the power of ranged weapons like slings and bows. Adamantium Halfling slingers, for example, can ruin anyone's day. I know I've found mass healing to be very helpful and don't get me started on Summons. Torin the Chosen, anyone? You can only get him through magic. I've used magic spirits as scouts. Throw endurance on them. I even have them access a ruin or temple just to scout out what is in it, then leave. Very efficient and you can dispel the spirit at any time. How many times do you find empty ruins or lairs? Free gold or mana. Mana cost is certainly cheaper than gold and food that units cost you. You can also do it very quickly, Building units is slow at the start of the game and you need to be building other things, like settlers and expanding.

I think the best way to look at magic in MOM is that it is subtle. No atom bomb spells. Except for maybe Spell of Mastery, but that ends the game. I suppose that's the difference between a Master of Magic as opposed to say an Apprentice of Magic.

[Act Chill]

At first you are weak just like your units. As you advance, your casting skill improves and so does the spells you know. You are the "master of magic" when you can win the game, not at the start...This game does have some hard counters, physical immune, magic immune, etc that you need to pay attention to.

[PrawnWonton]

Originally posted by Morgian:

And get your hero mages an item or to with a penalty to resists and let them cast the spells with resistance rolls. You can enchant them yourself, too.

Magic is more often resisted as not, as it was in the original. The idea is that it applies to the player, too. Nobody is happy, if his elite units get killed by a single bad roll...although there was Cracks Call, which did that (flat chance to kill your decked out arch hero).

Another thing is to cast attack spells overland right before the battle. You nuke the enemy stack and move in with yours the same turn, assuming you already have one of those spells. And take a look at global enchantments, some of them used to be quite powerful - or annoying if you were on the receiving end.

Buffs are always the best spells - in any game - because they don't get resisted and always work. It is inherent to the category to be that way, Just as attack spells will always have some form of defense against them. Sometimes there are ways to boost the attack, but not in all games. Games like Ultima, where a deathbolt simply was your end, were rare to begin with and non-existent by now.

- Get items for your heroes that negate resistance rolls. From what I've seen, this is entirely up to RNG on multiple fronts. You have to A) get offered heroes, B) get offered items to buy, C) pray that the item offered even has the ability to negate resistance, and D) pray again that your hero even has the applicable slot for said item. So yes, it happens, but not reliably. Requiring all the stars to align to make non-buff spells slightly more usable is not great...

- Magic is more often resisted as not. This is my issue, and makes no sense. The game is Master of Magic, and makes a big deal about spells being awesome. But if they are resisted the majority of the time, that means they are essentially trash, and you should instead just buff your own units. This makes many entire schools of magic useless. I picked Lo Pan as a mage, and guess what? No buff spells at all. Only debuffs (which are useless the majority of the time), and direct damage (which is also pretty trash), and a few summons. There might be some higher level spells I eventually get that could buff something, but so far nothing.

No wonder everyone loves life and nature magic. Those are where the buffs come from. And they are not always the best spells in any game, that is entirely due to the game mechanics. Master of Magic punishes you for casting anything but buffs, so buffs are best. Games like Warlock do not; direct damage spells and debuffs are amazing, and work just fine.

I wanted to know if I was doing something wrong, but it appears that the game is working as intended. So just buff or forget about it. Super disappointing, honestly.

[PrawnWonton]

Originally posted by Owl->208:

I find magic to be very useful. Archonsod above mentioned the right tool for the job and that is a good way to look at it. Your magic is really most powerful as an enabler, assisting you in accomplishing a goal. At the earlier stages of the game, your magic is best used to buff your units, which are weak. This is surprisingly useful even endgame. Casting a spell like endurance for example is really helpful in exploring the map. Many spells like holy weapon, flame weapon, holy armor, stone skin, etc. all can buff your army units to significant strength, Many of these buffs stack, too. These buffed units allow you to clear ruins, temples and even dungeons around your capitol. This in turn gets your units extra mana, gold and xp. as well as your magician fame. Expansion is critical early in the game as well, so spells can help with that as well. The list is endless really. Take a good look at all the spells in the game manual and you'll see what I mean. I'd say at least 1/4 are unit spells. Much more effective to use these than say a damage spell which may be resisted by a node or be ineffective. Some though, like starfire, can be effective against the dead - and what do you find in ruins and dungeons? Again, the right tool for the job,

As for direct combat, early in the game, spells like web can also be incredibly useful. Web and Entangle holds enemies in stasis or reduces their movement while you pummel them or others and can grant you victory instead of defeat. Spells that alter the terrain makes it hard for melee enemies to get to your army units. Late game there are many powerful spells like cracks call, lightning, etc. etc. Its all about using the right spell in the right situation. Do not underestimate the power of ranged weapons like slings and bows. Adamantium Halfling slingers, for example, can ruin anyone's day. I know I've found mass healing to be very helpful and don't get me started on Summons. Torin the Chosen, anyone? You can only get him through magic. I've used magic spirits as scouts. Throw endurance on them. I even have them access a ruin or temple just to scout out what is in it, then leave. Very efficient and you can dispel the spirit at any time. How many times do you find empty ruins or lairs? Free gold or mana. Mana cost is certainly cheaper than gold and food that units cost you. You can also do it very quickly, Building units is slow at the start of the game and you need to be building other things, like settlers and expanding.

I think the best way to look at magic in MOM is that it is subtle. No atom bomb spells. Except for maybe Spell of Mastery, but that ends the game. I suppose that's the difference between a Master of Magic as opposed to say an Apprentice of Magic.

Everything you said highlights my issues. All the "great" spells you listed to use, those are all buffs that don't get resisted. If you pick a mage that has no buffs, guess what, you are up a creek without a paddle. Entire magic schools are basically useless when nearly all non-early game units have 5+ resist, which means the majority of any enemy-targeted spells will flat out fail.

So stick with buffs, heals, and summons, is what I'm hearing from everyone. That severely limits the game if you don't want to play life/nature every single time.

[archonsod]

Originally posted by Owl->208:

As for direct combat, early in the game, spells like web can also be incredibly useful. Web and Entangle holds enemies in stasis or reduces their movement while you pummel them or others and can grant you victory instead of defeat.

One of the best things about web is it also removes flying from the unit. Handy for those sprite traps ...

Originally posted by PrawnWonton:

- Get items for your heroes that negate resistance rolls. From what I've seen, this is entirely up to RNG on multiple fronts.

Unless you research Enchant Item or Create Artefact.

- Magic is more often resisted as not.

Depends on the spell. Quite a lot apply a penalty to the target's resistance before rolling, some don't, some let you spend extra mana to apply a penalty.
The main problem debuffs have always had is that units tend to be slightly better at resisting spells than damage, largely because resistance increases with level while block chance is much harder to come by. It's therefore fairly selective when a debuff would be more effective than simply hitting the unit with a direct damage spell.

Originally posted by PrawnWonton:

Entire magic schools are basically useless when nearly all non-early game units have 5+ resist, which means the majority of any enemy-targeted spells will flat out fail.

Depends on the spell. To take Lo Pan as an example, you've normally got access to the common Sorcery and Chaos spells. Of the two, Shatter and Warp Wood apply no penalty to the target, so that 5 resistance unit has a 50/50 chance of being affected. Warp Creature ha(d)s -1, so 60% chance of affecting the unit and 40% chance of being resisted. Sorcery is a much better option - Confusion applie(d)s -4 to the resistance roll, so 90% of the time it's going to hit that unit. So again, horses for courses.

[Waterd103]

Magic is not useless in my experience, but i agree only Buffs, and summons are good.
Direct damage spells are very mediocre/highly situational, and barring a few debuffs , they are also super situational or just weak.

In fact is more that Buffs/summons are "the game" and are more important than anything else in the game, so is definitly Master of enchantment and Conjuring magic game.
I do think Buffs and summons should be nerfed and Direct damage and specially debuffs buffed.

[Wilhelm]

found the Apprentice of Magic

[Thewizardlord]

Lots of misconceptions here, even the guy typing a lot to explain is wrong on some points but mostly correct.

And yes direct damage such as firebolt , fireball works against mundane defense not resist.

The point about units getting high resist is correct though it just means debuff spells mostly under death books are very weak.

In general, magic buff spells are slightly stronger (even if you discount outliers like heroism) particularly on high figure units than direct damage spells but there are some exceptions.

Mom Veterans learn to fear Jafaar because he just spams Psionic Blast which is a illusionary attack and ignore shields. 3 or 5 times in a row and even high level heroes die.

Spells like Flamestrike (hit all units on battle field), Doombolt (10 unlockable damage), Fireball hits all figures compared in a unit and does well against high figure units (hello halflings)

The rest you need to use the right direct damage spell in right situation like Starfires a 15 strength attack on death/chaos units is really efficient. Icebolt if you need Armor piercing etc. Remember to check elemental resistances/immunities!

I would personally balance it this way

1. Debuff, curse spells - add bigger penalties to save, maybe add effect even if successfully saved

2. Direct damage - make it cheaper/more effective

3. Buff spells - effect scales down with figure size. Eg a Bless costs less / is less effective when cast on a Unit with 8 figures Vs 1.

[Mqz]

All those things are easy to mod, so you can just easily change the spells if you think they are too weak.. Not really the fault of the new developers, they just copied the spells from old MOM that is a pretty unbalanced game.. :)

Just a note.. A spell has as standard 30% chance to hit for each "attack/sword", not 20%.. So a 20 fireball will on average give 6 damage towards each figure in a unit.. Dealing massive damage versus multi figure units..

But if you think that Fireball or Flame strike is underwhelming at the moment..
Then you are right.. (It will be fixed in a few days in the "Week one patch") :p

But offensive magic can be very strong, confusion, mind storm, banish, bind creature, doom bolt, disintegrate, web, cracks call, flame strike, fireball, possession, star fires, dispel evil, holy word, psionic blast, stasis, call of the void, shatter, warp wood, warp creature, weakness, wrack, drain life and lastly black prayer is amazing in combinations with many of the other spells..

I have used all of those spells to great effect, but many of them need specific situations to be powerful..