How evil is Sybil really?

[stone.fire.smoke]

So maybe Sybil has the "greater good" in mind; maybe the stakes are so high, the ends really do justify the means.....but how bad is it since she has already resorted to:

even if we assume she didn't know about the mine seal to warn you, she allowed her daughter and friends to go into a house she knew was haunted; she was not surprised by the possession or overly concerned about the damage to anyone, especially if you or Tabby had to sacrifice years of your life; if you used booksmart, she even tells you the outcome was unexpected.

She has no problem drugging people to do things against their will, make them exhausted or make them forget information.

Sybil knew about Reese's true condition and went to Dr. Kelly to offer her "help"; Dr. Kelly even admits to being on the receiving end of a bad one-sided deal, calling Sybil a snake.

Sybil purposely withholds information that could help you; a heads up about Reese could have avoided the whole situation; Wayne knew Charlie Jr. had no real power, why did Sybil not tell you the same thing earlier, as she even admitted it would be better for one of the Scarlets to give up life to put the spirit to rest, but that she could still get you out if you refused.

Lastly, she told us after the ghost hunt that she would give us answers the next day when we saw her for tea; all I got was more smoke and mirrors keeping me in the dark.

[Marshall]

I'm going to go with 'very evil', and to help explain why I'm going to quote myself from another thread where someone was wondering if you could date Sybil:

Originally posted by Marshall:

The devs teasing about this made me think about it a bit and.. I actually think we will be able to date Sybil. In a manner of speaking, anyway. Possible future spoilers to follow, as well as spoilers for the current four episodes.

See, I think Sybil is going to try to take over Kaneeka's body in a future episode.

Her tea seems to open up people to her psychic/magic influence as we see with the PC and Kaneeka. I suspect that the more tea consumed over time the more powerful the connection, and that she's can use this connection to drain other 'gifted' individuals of their power (which is why Kaneeka's Mystical trait is barely noticeable and why Sybil's is so much stronger than the PC) or aid them (why Mystical PCs need to drink the tea on Thursday to get the full clinic vision, and even non-Mystical PCs who drank the tea get more from the vision). She can also use this connection to mess with a persons senses, emotions and even memories (think of Kaneeka feeling ill and then deciding not to come with us to the clinic, or the PC being forced to trust/obey Sybil and blacking out when Doc Kelly talks about her).

If you'll follow me a bit into into 'Wild Mass Guessing' territory, I'd say that Sybil is the same witch who helped Enoch and Charlie Shaw. My theory is that she has been using her tea and other magic/psychic powers to body hop through her descendants, and that this is why she's preventing Kaneeka from leaving town.

So.. if you're dating Kaneeka and your PC doesn't prevent Sybil from taking over her latest daughter's body, then Sybil might continue dating you to keep up appearances and manipulate you further. Could be a real horror show for a PC who becomes aware of what has happened but can't do anything about it or even tell anyone due to tea-brainwashing.

Even if I'm wrong about that theory, her methods still put her solidly in villain territory to me. Sybil regularly magically drugs, manipulates, and brainwashes people, including her own daughter. She has withheld potentially life saving information from us at least twice now, and certainly still knows more than she is letting on. As things stand, Sybil is my best guess for the 'final boss' of the game, assuming our players don't drink too much of her tea or something and are forced to join her. (Perhaps the special trait option for the last Episode will be the Mystical trait allowing us to resist her.)

[whitneygal]

Originally posted by Marshall:

I'm going to go with 'very evil', and to help explain why I'm going to quote myself from another thread where someone was wondering if you could date Sybil:

Originally posted by Marshall:

See, I think Sybil is going to try to take over Kaneeka's body in a future episode.

...

If you'll follow me a bit into into 'Wild Mass Guessing' territory, I'd say that Sybil is the same witch who helped Enoch and Charlie Shaw. My theory is that she has been using her tea and other magic/psychic powers to body hop through her descendants, and that this is why she's preventing Kaneeka from leaving town.

YES. I am 100% behind this theory.

I wish the MC could get more information about Kaneeka's family history. "Sybil" wasn't always possessed by the Witch...who body-hopped to her? Her mother, her grandmother? Did the Witch intend to hop to Kaneeka's mother, but now that the mother is dead, she must use Kaneeka instead? Did Kaneeka's mother's death have anything to do with the Witch?

Originally posted by Marshall:

As things stand, Sybil is my best guess for the 'final boss' of the game, assuming our players don't drink too much of her tea or something and are forced to join her. (Perhaps the special trait option for the last Episode will be the Mystical trait allowing us to resist her.)

I think this is a solid guess. And it makes for a very good story.

Street Smart also lets you avoid drinking the tea before you go to the clinic. You have the option to pretend to drink it but then dump it into a plant when Sybil is distracted. This is pretty funny since Sybil will still read your tea leaves (surprise, surprise, it's always the same reading). You then get the option to tell her that you didn't even drink the tea and she's a fraud.

Also, depending on what choices you've made so far, you can get the following options with no special trait required: straight-up tell Sybil you don't trust her and you're not drinking her tea; smash the tea cup; or just walk out.

You can play through without drinking any tea, although I've yet to find a way to avoid eating the damn biscuit. Instead of tagging along with Stella after the Skunk Ape hunt, insist on going back to Tabitha's. Then when Sybil tries to read your tea leaves before you go to the clinic, choose one of the several options to avoid drinking the tea.

[stone.fire.smoke]

IDK, I suspect based on the ghost hunt story info, the Forsythe's were always witches (look up the lineage on the family name); although if the theory holds, then maybe Kaneeka's mom interrupted or ruined the ritual (resulting in her death) which would have allowed "Sybil" to switch hosts.

Speaking of deaths, I don't remember if it ever mentioned how Kanneka's father died? Maybe a connection as well?

[Zarok]

I remember there was some combination with Mystical and another perk in the forth chapter that you can also say in the latest chapter that you sense some power within Kaneeka and ask if she's magical.

[Chillaxing]

Hmm, as much as I find Sybil to be major sus, I wouldn’t go as far as to call her the #1 Evil in this whole mess, more like one edge in a triangle that is her, Wayne and the past Scarlets, each following their own agenda.

With a reserve seat for a potential bigger evil that may or may not be revealed in the final episode.

[gruedragon]

Where are some y'all getting the idea that Kaneeka's mother is dead? Sybil is Kaneeka's mother. It's her father that's dead.

While Sybil is pretty sus, we simply don't have enough information to properly judge if she's outright evil or not.

[stone.fire.smoke]

Her mother is only "dead" if the theory of body-jumping is correct; I think I got myself confused when I typed out the previous post.

[whitneygal]

Originally posted by gruedragon:

Where are some y'all getting the idea that Kaneeka's mother is dead? Sybil is Kaneeka's mother. It's her father that's dead.

Originally posted by stone.fire.smoke:

Her mother is only "dead" if the theory of body-jumping is correct; I think I got myself confused when I typed out the previous post.

Yeah, I got myself confused too (I'm good at doing that to myself lol), between the body-hop theory and all the talk about the Dead Moms Club. My apologies! Thank you gruedragon for steering us right.

Originally posted by gruedragon:

While Sybil is pretty sus, we simply don't have enough information to properly judge if she's outright evil or not.

I 100% think she is evil and fully support the Main Villain theory. But I completely agree that, given what we have so far, there's no way to judge whether she's Very Evil, or to say how large her sphere of influence is and what her ultimate goal is.

However, I do think we've seen enough of her character and her decisions to know that she is far from benevolent. In fact, she is actively cruel. She treats people as playthings. She relishes having power over people and events.

It makes me think of one of my favorite quotes from the late, great Terry Pratchett (from his Discworld novel Carpe Jugulum):

Pastor Oats: "There are so many shades of grey..."

Granny Weatherwax: "There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."

Pastor Oats: "It's a lot more complicated than that--"

Granny Weatherwax: "No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."

Pastor Oats: "Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes--"

Granny Weatherwax: "But they starts with thinking about people as things."

IRL, I try not to use "evil" to describe humans. Calling someone "evil" is an easy out that lets people pretend that human cruelty is somehow alien and inhuman. It implies forces beyond human control, when the truth is that cruelty is always a deliberate choice.

Of course in Scarlet Hollow, inhuman evil actually exists. So I guess the question becomes - how much of any given character's "evilness" is their personality and intent, and how much of it is forced upon them?

Applying this to the body-hop theory... The real Sybil (pre-hop) was probably not a cruel person. She was probably a lot like Kaneeka, in fact. Which would make the whole thing even sadder.

Originally posted by Chillaxing:

Hmm, as much as I find Sybil to be major sus, I wouldn’t go as far as to call her the #1 Evil in this whole mess, more like one edge in a triangle that is her, Wayne and the past Scarlets, each following their own agenda.

I don't think Wayne is evil, really. I see him as a protective entity, and he'll go to great lengths to carry out his mission, which could include hurting people. But he doesn't seem to abuse his supernatural abilities. He doesn't actually hurt anyone. He allows the MC to make their own decisions (he warns them about danger but doesn't interfere with their free will) -- which is far more dignity and respect than Sybil affords anyone, even her own daughter.

I think the older Scarlets (especially Enoch) are villains who've committed evil acts. But I see them more as pawns. The family's "control" came from a pact they made with an entity of real power. The past Scarlets would have known the truth, and Enoch in particular would have actively engaged with the Ultimate Power. But as time passed, the pact and the entity behind it became more of an abstract idea, even "forgotten." Tabitha believes that the Scarlet family truly runs the Holler and is responsible for the town's very existence.

[stone.fire.smoke]

When it comes to Wayne, I think the jury is still out on that one; he is protecting you, but so is the rancher who keeps the goat out of trouble. Yea the goat can wander the pasture going wherever it wants, under a watchful eye....until its ready to be cooked.

While I will agree that except for some implied threats, he hasn't hurt anyone; it appears that the life or death of others is very inconsequential to him. Wayne basically tells you this during the ghost hunt as well as the MC status as "special".

[Marshall]

Originally posted by whitneygal:

(snip)

IRL, I try not to use "evil" to describe humans. Calling someone "evil" is an easy out that lets people pretend that human cruelty is somehow alien and inhuman. It implies forces beyond human control, when the truth is that cruelty is always a deliberate choice.

(snip)

Yeah, I generally agree with this statement, and with Granny Weatherwax. We're using 'evil' here as a short hand but I don't want to fall into moral absolutism, even when talking about characters I consider 'evil'. IRL, I think of it more as people doing good or evil things for good or evil reasons, instead of them just being good or evil people. You could also mentally substitute 'selfless' and 'selfish' when I say 'good' and 'evil' I guess.

Regardless, I feel that even if Sybil has some 'it's for the greater good' style motivation, her actions have already crossed too many lines. In the absence of a bunch of magic cops showing up later, I'm hoping that we'll be able to help her meet an ironic end in a future episode; Like if she does try to body-hop into Kaneeka, we mess up the spell so that she ends up stuck as a passenger in Kaneeka's stick bug.

Originally posted by whitneygal:

(snip)

Of course in Scarlet Hollow, inhuman evil actually exists.

(snip)

At the risk of being pedantic, I sort of disagree with this bit. Humanity has so many competing definitions for good and evil, and we know so little about the various entities/demons/spirits/aliens of the Scarlet Hollow universe, that I don't think we help ourselves understand them (and what threat they may pose) by trying to put them in neat little boxes like that just yet. Also, if we expand the question of who or what in this game is 'evil' further, I'd actually be more lenient to the inhuman entities than a human character like Sybil.

The Ditchlings preying on the animals around town is upsetting, but they ultimately seem to also just be animals following their life-cycle without malice. The ghosts like Charlie and the Tommyknockers might not have the self-control left to able to pass up the chance to avenge themselves on a Scarlett (or two) even at the risk of hurting or killing other innocent lives. The Entity might really not understand why threatening Stella could upset the PC, and I suspect it may be under some kind of external pressure (Magical compulsion? Needing our help to free itself from whatever our ancestors did to it?) to protect the PC from any 'threat' it's alien mind perceives.

Again, all still very dangerous creatures and should be treated as such, but not necessarily 'evil' in the way that I'd label Sybil. We can point out something like this early on in the game; When we meet Duke we can try to discourage him from hunting the 'mountain lion' that killed his chickens by say the following: "That mountain lion killed to live. You're killing for revenge."

So, instead I'd say that in Scarlet Hollow there are some dangerous inhuman and/or supernatural creatures.. but that all the evil I've found so far is man-made. Sorry if that went a bit off topic, but I think the contrast helps explain my low opinion of Sybil.

[whitneygal]

Originally posted by Marshall:

Regardless, I feel that even if Sybil has some 'it's for the greater good' style motivation, her actions have already crossed too many lines. In the absence of a bunch of magic cops showing up later, I'm hoping that we'll be able to help her meet an ironic end in a future episode; Like if she does try to body-hop into Kaneeka, we mess up the spell so that she ends up stuck as a passenger in Kaneeka's stick bug. :squirtheh:

I 100% agree about Sybil's character...and I would love for her to get stuck in the stick bug! That seems like poetic justice for sure. I reaaaaallly don't like that lady.

Originally posted by Marshall:

At the risk of being pedantic, I sort of disagree with this bit. Humanity has so many competing definitions for good and evil, and we know so little about the various entities/demons/spirits/aliens of the Scarlet Hollow universe, that I don't think we help ourselves understand them (and what threat they may pose) by trying to put them in neat little boxes like that just yet. Also, if we expand the question of who or what in this game is 'evil' further, I'd actually be more lenient to the inhuman entities than a human character like Sybil.

...

So, instead I'd say that in Scarlet Hollow there are some dangerous inhuman and/or supernatural creatures.. but that all the evil I've found so far is man-made. Sorry if that went a bit off topic, but I think the contrast helps explain my low opinion of Sybil.

That's a great point about being more lenient to inhuman entities than human characters who choose to do "evil" things. And I agree, honestly, with your entire assessment.

We haven't actually met a supernatural entity who seems evil (yet). My thought is that humans have been tapping into some greater power/force to control the town -- and it's not a benevolent power. Perhaps "dark magic" would be a better word than "evil."

[Kurozora Konoi]

Originally posted by Marshall:

At the risk of being pedantic, I sort of disagree with this bit. Humanity has so many competing definitions for good and evil, and we know so little about the various entities/demons/spirits/aliens of the Scarlet Hollow universe, that I don't think we help ourselves understand them (and what threat they may pose) by trying to put them in neat little boxes like that just yet. Also, if we expand the question of who or what in this game is 'evil' further, I'd actually be more lenient to the inhuman entities than a human character like Sybil.

The Ditchlings preying on the animals around town is upsetting, but they ultimately seem to also just be animals following their life-cycle without malice. The ghosts like Charlie and the Tommyknockers might not have the self-control left to able to pass up the chance to avenge themselves on a Scarlett (or two) even at the risk of hurting or killing other innocent lives. The Entity might really not understand why threatening Stella could upset the PC, and I suspect it may be under some kind of external pressure (Magical compulsion? Needing our help to free itself from whatever our ancestors did to it?) to protect the PC from any 'threat' it's alien mind perceives.

Again, all still very dangerous creatures and should be treated as such, but not necessarily 'evil' in the way that I'd label Sybil. We can point out something like this early on in the game; When we meet Duke we can try to discourage him from hunting the 'mountain lion' that killed his chickens by say the following: "That mountain lion killed to live. You're killing for revenge."

So, instead I'd say that in Scarlet Hollow there are some dangerous inhuman and/or supernatural creatures.. but that all the evil I've found so far is man-made. Sorry if that went a bit off topic, but I think the contrast helps explain my low opinion of Sybil.

I generally agree with that.
I don't know how human or inhuman Sybil is, but I feel like she's at the very least human enough to have some human moral understanding, and realize her methods can be labelled as evil.
So regardless of if her actions are "for the greater good" or for actually selfish reasons, or maybe simply because of some responsibility or pact that links her, what she does - the way she does it - is still evil in the end... all the manipulating, controlling, etc.

With that being said, I'd still say I'm on the fence about her being the main antagonist / big bad here. I feel like it may go both ways. Would make sense, but would also almost seem "too easy", so to speak?

[skiv1]

I'm starting to lean towards her being evil.
Here's a hypothesis: the carvings are fuelled by suffering. The witch told Charly Jr. how to find the carving in Oscar's home. That got the guy killed and he stayed near the carving as a ghost, suffering.
Reese had his monster side sedated every day, but he had to quetly suffer every day, which fed the carving in the hospital.
And if it turns out that the deliberately chosen rotten wood for the mine supports bought on the witch's advice, then that settles it.

[Mngwa]

Originally posted by skiv1:

I'm starting to lean towards her being evil.
Here's a hypothesis: the carvings are fuelled by suffering. The witch told Charly Jr. how to find the carving in Oscar's home. That got the guy killed and he stayed near the carving as a ghost, suffering.
Reese had his monster side sedated every day, but he had to quetly suffer every day, which fed the carving in the hospital.
And if it turns out that the deliberately chosen rotten wood for the mine supports bought on the witch's advice, then that settles it.

I also bet on Sybil being evil. Do not forget that she also intentionally weakens and controls her daughter with her shady old lady teas in order to imprison her in the town.

[iren_ivy]

Is Sybil really Kaeneka's and Myles' mother? She looks in her 60s, as far as I understand the situation. Isn't Myles about 13-15 years old? It is theoretically possible for a such late child but still, a little suspicious. Maybe she isn't their mother at all but fooled everybody with her magic.