Duke vs Gretchen Ch1

[Spaz]

It's so unrealistic. I don't think people are actually perceiving the situation with sufficient severity.

Put yourself in that very same situation.
-you are in the woods
-it's dark
-you can't see squat
-but something is moving in on you!
-you are in unfamiliar territory
-you are with two strangers
-and one dog (very small and useless for defense)

Now ask yourself.. would YOU really, and I mean REALLY try to grab the dog, or would you absolutely body dive for that flashlight!

I know for a fact my mind would be "screw the dog!!!! GET THE FLASHLIGHT!!!!

I genuinely feel the Devs need to rewrite that scenario to convey the situation more urgently. Let's be honest, MOST people have a very strong self-preservation mindset and presently the analytics are NOT reflecting this. It is instinctive to save your own @$$ and thus it is absolutley counter-intuitive for people to keep choosing to save the dog.

Conversely, if people are deliberately choosing the dog for cuteness vs a human life.. i would have to say that is equally disturbing. (I'm not going there b/c it's wrong on every level).

[Lurker]

In my playthrough where I tried my best to act as I would in real life, I very much "put myself in that situation" and I went unhesitatingly for Gretchen. Because I did not want to help the guy who'd pointed a gun at me TWICE already at that point, I did not want him to kill something that hadn't yet shown itself to be a threat to humans, and -- perhaps most importantly for my personal morals -- I wanted to save the only being in that group who hadn't CHOSEN to put herself in a dangerous situation.

Not that I would have chosen to come either, but "♥♥♥♥ you Stella you callous jerk I'm not letting you drag me along" isn't an option, so I had to pretend that I had. Which takes me to the second point: you're not in control of ALL the actions of the MC, so to some extent you're always roleplaying even if you try to act like your real-life self. But you also don't HAVE to act like your real-life self at all. Your assumption that people are only making the decisions they would IRL is inherently flawed. Games are escapism.

I did multiple playthroughs to get different outcomes with different trait combinations. That doesn't mean all of those characters represent me. IRL-me would absolutely never choose to spend my Wednesday hang-out with Stella after what she did to me, but I certainly picked that in one playthrough because it was still well-written content I wanted to see. It's not "disturbing", as you claim, for people to choose Gretchen over Duke in a game no matter the context; they're not necessarily making moral statements, merely choosing outcomes to see the programmed results.

[blacktabbygames]

Bear in mind that ~40% of people play with Talk to Animals on their primary run, and 63% of the players who have finished Episode 3 have played the first 3 episodes with it, so that likely skews the playerbase to view Gretchen as a full-fledged party member that they've had more interactions with than they've had with Duke at the time of the decision, even on playthroughs where they've taken other traits.

I also agree with the above poster that a lot of players tend to roleplay around the story outcomes they'd like to see, rather than what they'd do if they were actually in those situations, which is a trend you see on pretty much any choice-breakdown for a given game. If they have a sense of both outcomes, some players, for instance might just prefer to experience a story where a human character dies (pretty common, something people are desensitized to) as opposed to a dog they've spent time getting to know. I don't think there's a value judgment to be made around that type of decision-making. Likewise, self-preservation just isn't a factor for a lot of folks when it comes to playing video games, since death just means reloading a save, so people are inherently going to go into choices like this with a different mindset than they would if faced with these situations in real life.

All of that being said, we *do* have some subtle tweaks to both the Episode 1 and Episode 2 choices lined up that were written using some of the lessons we learned from studying our Episode 3 data. Time will tell if these tweaks lead to any significant shifts for either of those decisions!

[Spaz]

OK. I get what you are saying. Especially with the "talk to animals" trait. You are right, being desensitized and knowing you can always reload is understandable.

Watching videos of people playing, on Youtube, I'm seeing people time and again saving the dog over a human life. Worse yet, the reaction to it is about as uncaring and dry as Stella's. "oh well, keep on moving, whoopsie LOL" I get that it's a video game, but I still find this disturbing.

I can't shake this feeling that the perceived "value" of Duke's life is dismissed just because he's an old man. The story certainly doesn't do much to impart any sense of loss and Stella's apathetic reaction is downright scary.

I wonder, IF Duke was no longer portrayed as an old man, but shown as a 16 year old teen?
(ie: Dukes' teenage son)

How many people would still save the dog over a teenage boy? How would the value of the boy's life then be measured?

[Lurker]

Originally posted by Spaz:

Watching videos of people playing, on Youtube, I'm seeing people time and again saving the dog over a human life.

To be clear, in this thread you're discussing two separate situations: decisions with knowledge and decisions without. I presume here you're referencing the latter? YouTube Let's Plays probably are initial playthroughs without knowing that ignoring the flashlight will get Duke killed. So that hardly seems like a choice of "saving the dog over a human life" in such cases.

Originally posted by Spaz:

Worse yet, the reaction to it is about as uncaring and dry as Stella's. "oh well, keep on moving, whoopsie LOL" [...] Stella's apathetic reaction is downright scary.

I'll agree entirely on this front, but Stella IS kind of an awful person all throughout the story, so that's pretty consistent with her character. Every interaction she has with other characters involves denying facts and basic logic to push her worldview, forcing others to do what she thinks is best for everyone, and setting expectations for everyone to which she can't actually measure up. (Of course, she's a more complex character than that; everyone in the game is, which is part of why I love the writing. But the aspects of her character that are most relevant in the interactions presented thus far are generally her most negative ones, unless you evoke other behaviors from her by confronting her about her issues.)

Originally posted by Spaz:

I can't shake this feeling that the perceived "value" of Duke's life is dismissed just because he's an old man. [...] I wonder, IF Duke was no longer portrayed as an old man, but shown as a 16 year old teen?

I'd honestly be quite surprised if his age had anything to do with it. Duke simply doesn't get a lot of screentime before the decision, and that time is spent waving a gun in your face and having somewhat of an adversarial relationship with Stella, who most players appear to like. Regardless of his age, I don't think he makes a great impression on the average player in that time. In fact, when you meet him again in chapter 3, you can comment on this.

[Spaz]

I would like to know how people's attitude and decision making would change based on Duke's age.

I absolutely have no doubt that player reaction would change strongly if Duke was a teen boy as opposed to being an old man.

Perhaps players that chose the dog over Duke and abandoned the body in the woods should be forced at some point to face his family. Tell the wife her husband had no value. Tell Bo his father was less valuable than a dog.

[Deep_One_Hybrid]

Originally posted by Spaz:

I would like to know how people's attitude and decision making would change based on Duke's age.

I absolutely have no doubt that player reaction would change strongly if Duke was a teen boy as opposed to being an old man.

Perhaps players that chose the dog over Duke and abandoned the body in the woods should be forced at some point to face his family. Tell the wife her husband had no value. Tell Bo his father was less valuable than a dog.

FWIW, letting Duke die has more serious consequences to the player character than letting Gretchen die. The major consequence of Gretchen dying is that you don't get to see her anymore, but most Duke dying play-throughs have the police show up and start investigating *you* for the death, and all of them have you meeting Bo alone at the general store in Ep 3 and having to decide whether to tell him where his father died so he can look for the body. I suspect these consequences are going to have a cascade effect, leading to greater problems and complications in future episodes. (I also expect a Stella who's lost Gretchen to eventually stop bottling things up and blame you for letting her dog die, whether that's fair or not.)

Also FWIW, I did save Duke in my first play-through because I went through a similar reasoning process to the one you describe. I assumed the monster would maim MC or Stella if Duke didn't shoot it. (Boy, was I wrong. :( )

e: Finally, I for one am not trying to play "realistically," I'm trying to play a more heroic, protagonist-y version of myself. For me that means taking risks and standing up to others in a way that I would never do in real life. If I have a risk-free chance to be a Big Damn Hero, why shouldn't I take it? That's why I play these kinds of games in the first place!

[this lit cripple]

My reasoning was that Gretchen is a potato on her last legs and a pug at that. The fact she's still living is a miracle of science and love so... Duke is probably fine. I mean he's running around the forest looking for a chicken. He's probably made of tougher stuff than me! Bet he could beat me in an arm wrestling match and could throw me over his shoulder with just a pinky!

And I was so, so wrong and I screamed at the computer screen in anguish.

EDIT: Now that said... I'm disabled. I see Duke running around and OH WOWIE! He's COOL! Look at this guy! I don't think he has a problem because... look at him. Old doesn't mean... what people should think it means. I'm disabled. Duke is not. He's living his life. And his son is all sorts of adorable so Duke isn't a slouch. For all I know he looks like that because he lives hard, works hard, and fights mountain lions with bare fists in an illegal betting ring. I FORGOT THIS PART, sorry.

[D@rin]

Originally posted by Lurker:

Originally posted by Spaz:

I'll agree entirely on this front, but Stella IS kind of an awful person all throughout the story, so that's pretty consistent with her character.

I think Stella is kind of a negationist.

[disconcertinglymoist]

To be absolutely fair, I would nearly always go for the dog. Or cat. Or goat. Or whatever cute animal is around. It's a split-second decision (hypothetically) and it's highly context-dependent so obviously it's ultimately not something I can predict with any accuracy, - nor is it a rational choice, necessarily - but some of us do genuinely love pets enough that we see them as defenceless toddlers in need of saving, which draws more sympathy than a fully functional human adult in danger. I wouldn't denigrate the people who chose Gretchen. I think it's beautiful that people are able to have such compassion for other species that they can transcend their evolutionary impulses and move beyond automatic anthropocentrism. Also, Duke isn't particularly likeable so it's not a hard choice for many tbh

[Forbidden Knowledge]

Duke is kind of a ♥♥♥♥. That factored into my decision to not help him. He is a grumpy old douche so he can help himself and get his own flashlight. Saving Gretchen was simply my only other option. I didn't use the talk to animals trait.

[The Seraph of Tomorrow]

Since it's a interactive graphic novel essentially, you're not going to get that sense of urgency no matter what since there is not timer ticking down to create the sense of urgency.

[Genocidocles]

Lot of strengthlets in this thread smdh, sorry you're not built different like Powerful Buildchads

[Kurozora Konoi]

I'm late to the party but I feel like I have to comment on this one!
I was playing blind, so I didn't know what any of these options would cause at first. I just played through it, saved both dog and man, went on with my merry way, and was surprised after my playthrough when I read the branchings the story may have and realized one of them may have died. I was SO HAPPY my character has the strength related trait.

But you see, when I was actually playing, I picked the option that allowed me to do the most things. The MC I have is brave, kind, protective AND proactive. When looking back on the options, I think I would have chosen to go for the dog if I didn't have the strength option. And the reason is simple. Gretchen said she was losing control of herself, and I knew she would run at the creatures. Duke on the other hand seemed aware of what he was doing. So it was more likely Gretchen would die rather than Duke.
Age and species are not factors here for me - both are old, and my MC can talk to animals and sees them no different from people thanks to that. So they have no different "value".
It doesn't even matter that at this point my MC was already friends with Gretchen and less so with Duke - it's really a matter of what seemed more urgent / which one seemed to be more in danger there.
But well, all of that is irrelevant anyway since my character's traits allow him to save both.


Now, my MC is very different from my own personality, but the thing is... Well, if it was a real life situation, I wouldn't be able to do the strength option, nor am I able to talk to animals, of course but... I would have saved the dog? Why? Well, quickly catching the dog is something I know I'm able to do. Diving to catch the flashlight, pointing it fast enough at whatever danger is coming and so on? I'd probably be paralized.
Not to mention, in a split second decision, I'd go for "save a life!" as it'd be obvious the dog may run at the creatures, rather than "pick up an item!".

That aside, in real life I'd have labelled Duke as a jerk as I'm not as accepting and amiable as my MC, while I'd certainly have a good relationship with Gretchen even if I wouldn't be able to speak with her, so I'd naturally be more focused on her to begin with.

[ParaffinBrain]

I saved the dude immediately as any sane person would, also cause ♥♥♥♥ dogs

[Hex Deaf]

Personally in a bad situation, I always go for whatever animal is around because animals don't have the same logic ability as humans, so they need more saving and honestly, dude had a gun and should have been fine but no he had some horrible trigger discipline.