Summon Old One (Witch ritual) is underwhelming

[Grimwulf]

I've played several Witch games, and the more I play - the less I use Old Ones, preferring Major Summoning instead. The latter might spawn a lot of useful stuff. Dopplegangers are amazing, Hydras are always great, Will of the Wisps are great, Swarms allow you to take down any mundane armies with no risks or losses, etc. And it only costs 75 shrooms, compared to 400 for Old Ones.

But everything she summons with Old Ones is... tricky at best.
- Gorgons (immortal ones, at least) are strategically great. Flying immortal commander who can take small patrols on her own. You can use a couple gorgons to lock down slow factions like hoburgs or illusionist, taking their stuff and forcing their armies to waste turns on reclaiming them, while your gorgons can end turns in sky plane or hovering above water. Problem is, they don't add much to your actual forces. If enemy archers stand far enough, they just shoot a gorgon in a couple rounds. Oh, and then there are wooden gates - the worst enemy of any Gorgon.
https://i.imgur.com/JTXMNm1.jpg

- Catoblepas seems great, but Death Gaze causes a lot of friendly fire. It's near damn impossible to field regular below-80 hp troops along with Catoblepas. Having no regen and fighting on the front, Catoblepas doesn't last very long. Huge units are arrow magnets, so one major battle or 2-3 big battles, and he's dead.

- Eynarie is basically useless. Yes, she is a flying commander. But no magic, only 3 item slots, no immortality/regen, and only 40-something hp for a giant frontliner? It's a glorified troop ferry.

- Mother of Monsters is okay. Freespawn is always okay. Bile magic is a lot like Troll Magic, and she plays a lot like Mum. If Mum had no regen and was stupid enough to fight on the frontline. So again, combat utility is limited (unless you want her to die), but stacking her freespawn with Miasma's freespawn is pretty efficient at replenishing chaff.

- Dracolion is a glass cannon. Another huge flying unit with no regen or immortality. You could *maybe* try to assemble some weird Eynarie+Dracolion+Gorgon flying squad to take over sky realm or something, but seriously...

- Swamp God is a fat boy with plenty of attacks and cool traits, but in the end he is just a worse version of Ancient Hydra.

- Wyrms are the worst. Huge single-attack units with nothing good to say about them. Overpriced meatshields is what they are.

- Finally, Ancient Hydra is the one unit you actually hope to get.

And I know, witches have Charm. So you basically take a witch, give her some rabbits for protection (or summon some non-decay mushrooms with Swamp Guardians), memorize only charm + poison attack spells (all Old Ones are poison immune), then reduce ritual cost to 50% and use Summon Old One for 200 mushrooms.

And here is the deal breaker for me. Going with cheap cost to charm the Old Ones during battle costs you a turn. Yes, it's 200 mushrooms, but also a full turn. As in, you can't summon several Old Ones in one turn like that. And they all come one at a time, most of them are of limited utility, and you spend a whole turn to summon them this way.

While with Major Summoning (75 base cost) you can spend 100 shrooms to summon useful stuff and reliably succeed control checks. You can do that twice per turn for the same 200 shrooms cost, but you'll get stuff that's actually effective and useful. Stuff that you won't cry over when it dies.

I don't know. Once you get a few Gorgons for strategical reasons, there is not much point in using this ritual. Am I missing something?

[mergele]

Wyrm breath has a chance to hit enemy mages in the back row. Not high, but against a level 3 caster anything goes.
My experience with Catoplebas are a bit different, yes they'll die eventually, but they put out a lot of damage in the meanwhile.
But yes, the Hydra is the amazing summon and the rest mostly meh.

Overall I still think you get more power per shroom and battlefield width from old ones than major summons, but it certainly isn't any priority and getting a good and big major summoning core will do better for most of the time. Old ones are for way late game stuff in response to your enemy fielding big level 3 doom stacks imo.

[Zymeth]

Myabe slightly underwhelming, I'd say the 1000 herbs Dryad and Druid summons are actually useless. But I have too limited experience to ever regret using Summon Old One / say it is meh - for my runs, it turned out great, especially when Major Summoning usually gives you slow (which means useless as a core army in my book) units.

[Draken]

The Druid's summon for 1000 are quite good.

The beholder are very good and the gods aren't too shabby either.
I just had a game where I got the one god that has three bodies that can resummon each other. I would send two of in suicide battles and have them wreck enemy armies, just to resummon both with the third one.
They are also aquatic and can help you snatch up all the nice water tiles.
Of corse you could also get an ent, but there are quite a few rituals were the good results make up for the more disappointing ones.

[Zymeth]

@Up Well, it is hard for me to debate that due to too little experience with the druid (I will try to focus on him more, thanks to you). For now, I got an impression that druid is too weak to risk 1000 herbs to get (at least) an ent. Dryad in my experience always was doing much better, but there I would have a harder time believing it is worth to use her 1k summons instead of Call of Gaia.

[Grimwulf]

Originally posted by Zymeth:

Major Summoning usually gives you slow (which means useless as a core army in my book) units.

Useless as core doesn't mean useless at all. You get a lot of slow units when doing Swamp Guardians anyway (crocodiles and ochre jellies), both of which make great defenders or underwater squads. Especially when combined with slow units from Major Summoning.

Green Ooze is summoned in significant numbers, very tough with great reistances and acid attack. More importantly, they are amphibian - just give them to a Mound King and start expanding underwater. I believe you can get up to six with a single summon - that's basically filling up two front rows. With a single ritual.

Monster Snails have a ranged attack (which is always in short amount for witches), and work wonders when defending settlements. Poison - yes, but burst 1. Not to mention they are mindless and withstand a lot of punishment.

Gelly Cubes might not seem like much, but again - great for defending positions, not necesserily fortified ones. E.g., you leave a single gelly to guard a mine. It's stealthy. Unaware AI sends a small squad to take the mine, get ambushed by the cube, and proceed to be engulfed. Engulf is actually very powerful - there is no counterplay, unless you are a giant.

Giant Crocodiles - very solid amphibian units. Tough and pack a punch. Might take on a sea dragon with minimal support.

All these are supported by vast amounts of regular crocodiles and ochre jellies that you get from Swamp Guardians. Slow armies are simply part of the game when you play Witch.

[Blaise_art]

Try to get a lvl 3 witch with true charm, and summon old ones at 50%, easiest doomstacks of my life.

[Grimwulf]

Originally posted by Blaise:

Try to get a lvl 3 witch with true charm, and summon old ones at 50%, easiest doomstacks of my life.

You didn't read my OP, did you?

[Blaise_art]

Originally posted by Grimwulf:

Originally posted by Blaise:

Try to get a lvl 3 witch with true charm, and summon old ones at 50%, easiest doomstacks of my life.

You didn't read my OP, did you?

I did, look once you get 4 Ancient Hydras/Ancient Presence frontline, 2 Catoblepas at sides, 2-3 Wyrm shooting from behind almost nothing can stop you, and thats 1 year of summoning at worst, sometimes you can get 3 summons in one month even at 50%

Dracolions and gorgons are excelent patrols and a very good way to deal with amphibians/floating invasions. Witch have very low mobility, once you get a gorgon, your mushroom production can skyrocket. Also I can't see myself fighting late game troll king without flying support.

Swamp God is bit better than Ents and is pretty useful against pierce/slash resistance units

Erinye and Medusa to get more forests and swamps, but yeah, those are the worst when you can get the immortal one.

This is based on my experience fighting 1v1 in multiplayer and against Duke IA

[Blaise_art]

A Key part in the Old ones Strategy is making a lot armies with only 2 powerfull units, you can use some napoleonic tactics, spreed your forces, bait your enemy to do the same, abuse fly and giant size, then concentrate your forces to take most fortified cities, sometimes you can send some freespawns hordes as sacrifice to keep your 2 monsters armies safe. while your enemy can't advance into your territory you are getting more free spawn and more old ones I don't think you can do this with only Major Summoning.
Also, some old ones came with items, sometimes scrolls to break into other planes.

[Grimwulf]

Originally posted by Blaise:

I did, look once you get 4 Ancient Hydras/Ancient Presence frontline, 2 Catoblepas at sides, 2-3 Wyrm shooting from behind almost nothing can stop you, and thats 1 year of summoning at worst, sometimes you can get 3 summons in one month even at 50%

But isn't a hydra+doppleganger frontline better than what you suggest? Catoblepases and Wyrms-from-behind cause a lot of friendly fire and need to be replaced every now and then. Hydras and Dopplegangers are much more survivable and more damaging, once they get in melee range.

And you don't have to lock your witch in a swamp for a year. Major Summoning armies can be replenished on the go.

Originally posted by Blaise:

A Key part in the Old ones Strategy is making a lot armies with only 2 powerfull units, you can use some napoleonic tactics, spreed your forces, bait your enemy to do the same, abuse fly and giant size, then concentrate your forces to take most fortified cities, sometimes you can send some freespawns hordes as sacrifice to keep your 2 monsters armies safe. while your enemy can't advance into your territory you are getting more free spawn and more old ones I don't think you can do this with only Major Summoning.

Like I said in op, using Old Ones rituals a few time just to get some Gorgons is reasonable. But then, in all honesty, Major Summoning armies are simply cheaper. They survive for much longer, and once you get a good core of hydras and doppelgangers - they are just as damaging as Old Ones, only without friendly fire.

And yes, you can do 2-powerful-units-armies with Major Summoning:
https://i.imgur.com/CIGYICC.jpg
Okay, that's 4 units. But the result would be the same with 2.

Originally posted by Blaise:

Also, some old ones came with items, sometimes scrolls to break into other planes.

Heh, you don't need scrolls for that. Almost any plane has swamps (apart from Celestial and Elemental, I believe). Just use Bog Eye, find a swamp, then Bog Path to get there.

[Red Bat]

A lot of higher tier summons are underwhelming. At least Fungi resources eventually end up being ridiculously easy to come by later on.

One advantage though is action economy, which is hard to measure compared to special resources. Overpaying for a summon that's like 1.5 times stronger than another while costing over twice as many resources might still be worth it if you do it in 1 action, as higher tier summoners action points are much more valuable.

[DirtyBird]

Originally posted by Grimwulf:

I've played several Witch games, and the more I play - the less I use Old Ones, preferring Major Summoning instead. The latter might spawn a lot of useful stuff. Dopplegangers are amazing, Hydras are always great, Will of the Wisps are great, Swarms allow you to take down any mundane armies with no risks or losses, etc. And it only costs 75 shrooms, compared to 400 for Old Ones.

But everything she summons with Old Ones is... tricky at best.
- Gorgons (immortal ones, at least) are strategically great. Flying immortal commander who can take small patrols on her own. You can use a couple gorgons to lock down slow factions like hoburgs or illusionist, taking their stuff and forcing their armies to waste turns on reclaiming them, while your gorgons can end turns in sky plane or hovering above water. Problem is, they don't add much to your actual forces. If enemy archers stand far enough, they just shoot a gorgon in a couple rounds. Oh, and then there are wooden gates - the worst enemy of any Gorgon.
https://i.imgur.com/JTXMNm1.jpg

- Catoblepas seems great, but Death Gaze causes a lot of friendly fire. It's near damn impossible to field regular below-80 hp troops along with Catoblepas. Having no regen and fighting on the front, Catoblepas doesn't last very long. Huge units are arrow magnets, so one major battle or 2-3 big battles, and he's dead.

- Eynarie is basically useless. Yes, she is a flying commander. But no magic, only 3 item slots, no immortality/regen, and only 40-something hp for a giant frontliner? It's a glorified troop ferry.

- Mother of Monsters is okay. Freespawn is always okay. Bile magic is a lot like Troll Magic, and she plays a lot like Mum. If Mum had no regen and was stupid enough to fight on the frontline. So again, combat utility is limited (unless you want her to die), but stacking her freespawn with Miasma's freespawn is pretty efficient at replenishing chaff.

- Dracolion is a glass cannon. Another huge flying unit with no regen or immortality. You could *maybe* try to assemble some weird Eynarie+Dracolion+Gorgon flying squad to take over sky realm or something, but seriously...

- Swamp God is a fat boy with plenty of attacks and cool traits, but in the end he is just a worse version of Ancient Hydra.

- Wyrms are the worst. Huge single-attack units with nothing good to say about them. Overpriced meatshields is what they are.

- Finally, Ancient Hydra is the one unit you actually hope to get.

And I know, witches have Charm. So you basically take a witch, give her some rabbits for protection (or summon some non-decay mushrooms with Swamp Guardians), memorize only charm + poison attack spells (all Old Ones are poison immune), then reduce ritual cost to 50% and use Summon Old One for 200 mushrooms.

And here is the deal breaker for me. Going with cheap cost to charm the Old Ones during battle costs you a turn. Yes, it's 200 mushrooms, but also a full turn. As in, you can't summon several Old Ones in one turn like that. And they all come one at a time, most of them are of limited utility, and you spend a whole turn to summon them this way.

While with Major Summoning (75 base cost) you can spend 100 shrooms to summon useful stuff and reliably succeed control checks. You can do that twice per turn for the same 200 shrooms cost, but you'll get stuff that's actually effective and useful. Stuff that you won't cry over when it dies.

I don't know. Once you get a few Gorgons for strategical reasons, there is not much point in using this ritual. Am I missing something?

I don't see the Ancient Presence in this thread. First time I used the spell I got him, he pretty much incorporated the board until he didn't survive a battle with the COE equivalent of Poseidon (forgot his name, the COE gods are out and about) but he seemed really good. So far, the only other one I have gotten is the Dracolion and "glass cannon" is a good description.