Conquest of Elysium 5

Conquest of Elysium 5

Rayder Oct 3, 2021 @ 6:53am
Dryad Queen is broken
You're not given an outlet to spend your gold, especially to get the commanders you need. For a herb class this is FATAL.

The other point is that freespawn from Grove is extremely bad in the early-mid game, so much so that it's essentially a trap mechanic.

The only way to succeed with them now is to spam Call of Gaia and try to emulate the Druid or Barbarians speed in flagging forests.

What I'm trying to get at is that the whole experience of playing them is frustrating and janky compared to other classes, especially comparable ones like druid or Barbarian
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Showing 1-15 of 76 comments
Rayder Oct 3, 2021 @ 7:07am 
After some thought, let me explain this in a clearer fashion:

other classes can use gold to recruit units that help you take libraries and temples: the things that let you recruit other commanders.

Dryad Queens can not. Therefore if there aren't any libraries near or they're properly defended your'e ♥♥♥♥ outta luck. I've thrown 1200 herbs of white centaurs and casters at libraries and it seems DQs simply don't have the tools.

It's extremely frustrating to be accumulating up to 1000 gold with nothing to do with it, while you need to scrimp on every single herb since their herb costs are so inflated.
Last edited by Rayder; Oct 3, 2021 @ 7:15am
Drithyl Oct 3, 2021 @ 7:14am 
Dryad Queen could use a tune up. I think perhaps having DQ troops come as mercenary offers every so often would help a bit with how it's hard-capped by the spawn rate of its ancient forests. I would also like it if the spawning mechanic was more transparent, as it's very hard to tell how it works exactly; when things will spawn and when they won't.
Rayder Oct 3, 2021 @ 7:23am 
Yea. I simply don't understand why their costs for Minor and Major Summoning are inflated compared to Druid when Druid is already so much better at capping forests.
eddieballgame Oct 3, 2021 @ 10:52am 
Per the excess gold, being able to trade for Herbs & or Iron (to include 'overprice') is not a bad thing.
Rayder Oct 3, 2021 @ 12:30pm 
Originally posted by eddieballgame:
Per the excess gold, being able to trade for Herbs & or Iron (to include 'overprice') is not a bad thing.

Of course. I do this already. I change trade priorities almost every other turn.

The current problems with the DQ class result from perhaps how slightly over-tuned they were when they were introduced at the tail-end of COE4, and from how generally impressive the Earth Mother seemed to be when you first get her.

Perhaps as a response to this, they got nerfed.

Now they are unplayable compared to Druid in multiplayer settings. Their herb costs are inflated, and they are completely dependent on Libraries and Temples to unlock their Hierophant and Sage Centaur recruits.

However, if all the Temples and Libraries you find are too well defended(which they tend to be), then you're out of luck. DQ like Druid has no real siege capability until Tier 3.

Without Temples or Libraries, your already meagre Commander offers dwindle to almost nothing, and when you do get them it's more expensive to give them units to lead. Major Summoning costs 100 compared to Druid's 75.
The white centaurs from Call of Gaia is technically better, but is massively over-costed at 400 herbs.

As free-spawn rates are abysmal, the rituals "Convert Sacred Grove", "Grove of Gaia" and "Primal Forest" are essentially massively costed Rituals that....do nothing.

I'm not even kidding about this. The most you could say is that converting an ordinary tree to a Sacred Grove changes the income from 1 to 6. That increase of +5 will take....80 turns for you just to recoup your investment of 400 herbs. That's more than 6 and a half years, well into the late game. Never mind the worse scenario of converting Ancient Forests to Sacred Groves.

As things stand right now, the "Grove" rituals are artificial roadblocks put in place so you can't get Earth Mother as quickly, but then Earth Mother was always a band-aid solution for a problematicly designed class.

TL:DR;

1. Free Spawn rates are abysmal on anything below Primal Forest. If you park commanders in your starting Sacred Grove(or any Sacred Grove for that matter), when you could be out there flagging forests, you'll have neither the herbs for rituals or the units to do anything with.

2. Unable to recruit units(but that's what defines them) but ALSO, unable to get reliable source of Commander recruits.

3. As a druid, I get Vergobret offers almost every other turn, and I can fully outfit them with a decent army for flagging forests with just one casting of Major Summoning(75 herbs).

compare this to:

waiting for the RNG to give you a commander maybe once a year if you don't have a Temple or Library. They will likely costs twice as much as a vergobret. You can either outfit them with the same spell for 100 herbs, or use Call of Gaea, which might give you enough white centaurs for 2 commanders....or give you a useless Pan. Rarely you might get a Harpy Queen. Yay.

Watch helplessly as your gold goes beyond the +1k mark.






Last edited by Rayder; Oct 3, 2021 @ 12:38pm
Rayder Oct 3, 2021 @ 12:50pm 
Here are my proposed solutions:

1. Like Drithyl says, the Free-Spawn mechanic that underpins the entire class needs to be made more transparent, so we know exactly what we're getting into. Right now the costs to upgrade the Grove is exorbitant for very very little clear return(in fact the only return is being able to cast Earth Mother).

There also needs to be a way for us to "force" this mechanic in some way.

2. There is no clear reason why Dryad has the same Minor and Major summoning spells as Druid, except more expensive. They should either cost the same, or be removed. I happen to think that they should be removed. In its place, perhaps we could get a spell that gives us those much needed Commanders in some way.

3. It's clear that perhaps the devs didn't want DQ to replicate the play patterns of Druid that I described (spamming vergobrets and Major Summoning). However, something comparable needs to be given to DQ. By nature a Herb class needs to flood the map with cheap, semi-durable commanders.

It seems that "Blood Orgy" from the Pans MIGHT fill this role.... but it is an overcosted ritual(100 herbs) for ONE stack of stupid maenads.

It' bad enough that they're stupid, but they're extremely weak.... and cost 100 herbs. I could be equipping a commander with an army that I can actually control for roughly that much....so what gives?




geepope Oct 3, 2021 @ 2:39pm 
Really? I still find the DQ very powerful. Satyr warriors/javelins are noticeably better than most generic troops and while harpies are mostly useless you can mass them to throw at fortified sites to overrun the archers on the walls. It does really want iron and gold and herbs so there is a little RNG to get all the resources you want, but it's strong enough that you can stay afloat even if you're shorted on one research and when you get good access to all 3 it tends to make for a very easy and very short game. Armored minotaurs & centaurs are ridiculously good for the cost and Call of Gaia is tremendous value despite the cost. The upper tier stuff is gated behind a lot of impractically huge expenses but you don't need to care about that if you overrun the world with a mix of bronze & white centaurs before then.
niddhoger Oct 3, 2021 @ 2:51pm 
Well, I haven't been having too much trouble with the DQ. Not MP, but just on my own.

I'm really not sure why you are so obsessed with libraries and temples... neither increase your basic commander recruitment. While the mages and heirophants are nice, it is summoning that is the trap here. As mentioned, summoning is just worse than a druid's.

So instead of trying to play the DQ as a "druid, but worse," lean into the freespawn. I've noticed leaving the dryad in your starting grove Vs the satry commander makes a big difference... it's RNG wonky and you can go long dry spells still, but after a year the dryad will definitely have more troops.

Then focus on finding citadels and iron more than suiciding against libraries and temples. Oh, as far as sieges go... the harpies. They suck and die quickly, but they can fly over the walls and tie up archers. When upgraded to Stymphallion Birds, they do this role much better as they get +2 armor and a mid-ranged AoE attack. The harpies kill/tie up the archers and the minotaurs shred the gates.

Then when you finally take out a proper citadel... a front line of steel bulls causes some serious carnage.

Upgrading past the basic sacred grove is definitely not something you rush. I upgrade all the basic ones and use my spare gold on parking commanders in them to boost the freespawn mechanic. Then combine the freespawn of a few groves, head to the nearest citadel, and upgrade. That army should be able to smash into something and keep you expanding. When I've upgraded most of my ancient forests and notice I have hundreds of herbs still, I'll pick a grove near the front lines to upgrade for the purpose of promoting my dryad to T3. Then you can save up for the Earth Mother and some Pans.

Early game I prioritize gold and iron while looking for a citadel near my grove. Herbs can be grabbed with a spare commander, a scout (to avoid surprises) and maybe ~5 satry warriors or javelins as per your preference. Definitely make sure to buy spare commanders as you get them. You'll want to park them in your next grove, use them to flag forests/scout, or ferry troops to the citadel and march onward for expansion. The more "civilized" commanders with higher armor/centaur sages are the b est for this as they have the weakest boost.

If you are desperate for reinforcements you can buy a few summons, but I generally just return to flagging forests and swamps while waiting for more freespawn.

Hammadryads and a bramble fort on your groves are surprisingly effective defenders. If a druid is in the game, it's only a matter of time before the Wild Hunt comes knocking on your door... I've found the dryad+bramble combo is often capable of fending off the Wild Hunt on it's own.

You can skip the fort if you feel the area is secure enough, but the harpies really do help with taking fortified locations... if you have enough of them. And they are upgraded.

But in general, playing the Dryad as a knockoff druid is obviously going to be a frustrating experience. You have to lean into the freespawn for most of the game, and by the end, you can deal some serious carnage with upgraded armies you've collected from multiple groves stocked with spare commanders and ferried to nearby citadels. The class definitely has more micro than most, and it definitely takes patience. The earliest part of the game is the hardest to get going for this reason. But I wouldn't call the class entirely broken.

MP though... never done MP. I assume human opponents are more aware of specific class weaknesses and would be more of a ♥♥♥♥♥ to fight. It's hard to be a bit patience and careful early on with other classes burning forests left and right and rushing you.

Oh, final note. If my starting dryad has charm/command beasts, I'll send her out as the main army to snowball as I go. If not, she helps secure the local area then gets parked on my grove for better spawns. When I have enough herbs to plant the dryad and fort, I'll keep her htere until I have enough herbs to upgrade another grove. By that point I should have located another AF or forest to upgrade.
niddhoger Oct 3, 2021 @ 2:53pm 
Originally posted by geepope:
Really? I still find the DQ very powerful. Satyr warriors/javelins are noticeably better than most generic troops and while harpies are mostly useless you can mass them to throw at fortified sites to overrun the archers on the walls. It does really want iron and gold and herbs so there is a little RNG to get all the resources you want, but it's strong enough that you can stay afloat even if you're shorted on one research and when you get good access to all 3 it tends to make for a very easy and very short game. Armored minotaurs & centaurs are ridiculously good for the cost and Call of Gaia is tremendous value despite the cost. The upper tier stuff is gated behind a lot of impractically huge expenses but you don't need to care about that if you overrun the world with a mix of bronze & white centaurs before then.

What he said.

At the end of the day, you can't play the DQ as a druid. Gotta go hard on that iron, park spare commanders on your groves, and upgrade the troops. You can get some serious beef going before the truly scary late game SC's come into play. At that point you can throw the Earth Mother at them or continue tossing centaur cataphract front lines to soften them up: you should have several groves with a set of commanders in them at this point. Really, if you have the spare gold: buy the extra commander. You'll move them to new groves or use them to ferry troops around and lead armies. That is where your gold goes into.
Originally posted by Outis:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2583576040
Wow, someone posted it before me. Dryad is actually getting a further tune-up in the all-in-one pack, which will probably be one of the few content changes moved back into an individual class pack.

Honestly, force of nature is one of the class packs that I've never been satisfied with because of how little content there was in it (and how poorly it was made, but we won't talk about the 12 hours I just spent standardizing everything).
Last edited by Commisar Jon Fuklaw; Oct 3, 2021 @ 3:04pm
Wegadin Oct 3, 2021 @ 3:19pm 
Just spent a whole game playing cloud lord, and while I conquered the air and higher plains, the dryad queen completely took over the land. The difficulty level was on marquis for everyone, but she dominated, and I saw nothing but stacks of 200-400 groups all over the place. I even saw one unit had 1900 units. If it were not for my ability to hit all enemy units with my spells, I would have quickly quit or been overwhelmed.
pixelgeek Oct 3, 2021 @ 4:19pm 
Originally posted by geepope:
Really? I still find the DQ very powerful.

A lot of his recent posts have been about how broken or OP things are so it might just be his approach t0o the game that is the issue
eddieballgame Oct 3, 2021 @ 5:04pm 
Concur on posts making claims per certain races being broken as potential hyperbole.
The OP makes a thoughtful argument for his case...however.
I am no expert, but I have had some good games (translation...fun & success) using the Dryad Queen, to include multiplayer.
geepope Oct 3, 2021 @ 5:22pm 
Originally posted by eddieballgame:
Concur on posts making claims per certain races being broken as potential hyperbole.
The OP makes a thoughtful argument for his case...however.
I am no expert, but I have had some good games (translation...fun & success) using the Dryad Queen, to include multiplayer.

I do think OP is correct in that the DQ's version of the druid Minor/Major summoning is pretty bad, to the point that I feel they're almost a trap... the class has enough going on that that's not much of a problem, but there's really no need for them to have these uniquely bad rituals.
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Date Posted: Oct 3, 2021 @ 6:53am
Posts: 76