Dune: Spice Wars

Dune: Spice Wars

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Machine Spirit 2023 年 9 月 18 日 上午 3:09
Why are the Fremen not included in conquest?
Why are the Fremen not included in the conquest game mode? It seems odd to me, past topics have said there are lore reasons as to why but the first book shows how the Fremen conquer Arrakis, so surely a conquest game mode is lore friendly for the Fremen? The smugglers exclusion I can understand.

On the face of it, I think excluding arguably the most popular faction in Dune lore from a game mode like conquest is a bit stupid, so can someone help me understand it?
引用自 Mordred of Fairy:
Victory at last!
Yay for Fremen Conquest!
(added in Community Update 4)
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正在显示第 31 - 45 条,共 63 条留言
hibbidy_jibbidy 2024 年 5 月 23 日 下午 4:24 
i love to heare about passionate people talk about what they love
hibbidy_jibbidy 2024 年 5 月 23 日 下午 4:27 
btw way, i could watch the princess irulen from 1984 read me the entirty of pauls saga, and nod and agree that millions died for a good reason
hibbidy_jibbidy 2024 年 5 月 23 日 下午 4:28 
joking, but wow shes pretty
hibbidy_jibbidy 2024 年 5 月 23 日 下午 4:29 
irulan reminds me of the chroniclar of the tales of conan, akira
let me tell you tales of high adventure
Hangman 2024 年 6 月 6 日 上午 10:19 
You want to CONQUER as a Freemen ? their own planet ?
Lord Bubba 2024 年 6 月 17 日 下午 7:30 
YES! Kick all the Houses and the Emperor off the planet? Damn Straight! Except the Atreides. They're descent folk.
Lord Bubba 2024 年 6 月 17 日 下午 7:33 
"I still think Fremen and Smugglers will get their own version of Conquest mode. You just need to give Shiro time to devise some more Renegade Factions to also play inside of "Insurrection" Mode."

I agree. But are the devs listening...
FDR'sThinkTank 2024 年 6 月 18 日 上午 7:55 
If you look at Shiro Games track record with Northgard, they listened very closely to feature, theme, and game mechanic suggestions. They don't seem to listen to game balance concerns as well, but Dune Spice Wars is much more balanced than Northgard is right now.

The only thing that would block suggestions for Shiro Games is what they cannot do because it touches on Lore concerns or creates copyright issues for them. They need approval from the Herbert Estate on lore issues, and they can't use Dune Lore from other licences. (Westwood/EA Games, David Lynch's Dune, Dune: Adventures in the Imperium, etc.)
omnius 2024 年 6 月 18 日 下午 12:50 
引用自 LegendaryThunder
The funniest thing about the " Modern " design of fremen is that they look nothing like the Sardaukar despite being the same race. The emperor and the fremen are the same race.

Try reading the books of Dune, all 23 novels, and you'd know that Sardaukar are not Fremen but from many planets. They were the hardened criminals of society made tougher by being on the prison planet Salusa Secundus - former capital of the empire.

The Corrino family line was first known as Butler, as in the Butlers were servants unto no one. Actually related to the Butlerian Jihad traitor Abulurd Harkonnen who betryaed Xavier Atreides, thus began that long conflict between houses. Totally wrong that the Corrinos were in any way related to the Fremen.
FDR'sThinkTank 2024 年 6 月 18 日 下午 1:34 
引用自 omnius
引用自 LegendaryThunder
The funniest thing about the " Modern " design of fremen is that they look nothing like the Sardaukar despite being the same race. The emperor and the fremen are the same race.

Try reading the books of Dune, all 23 novels, and you'd know that Sardaukar are not Fremen but from many planets. They were the hardened criminals of society made tougher by being on the prison planet Salusa Secundus - former capital of the empire.

The Corrino family line was first known as Butler, as in the Butlers were servants unto no one. Actually related to the Butlerian Jihad traitor Abulurd Harkonnen who betryaed Xavier Atreides, thus began that long conflict between houses. Totally wrong that the Corrinos were in any way related to the Fremen.

I'm fairly certain this guy read some sort of literary analysis or and interview that he has taken out of context to be canon, as opposed to what was likely inspiration. He followed up saying Liet Kynes looked like the Fremen. In the new movie and this game, she does. In the book HE only looks like Fremen when geared up. When he takes his Stillsuit off, his blonde hair and naturally blue (Not blue from the spice stain) eyes give it away.

If you just take Frank Herbert's works and ignore Brian Herbert's later works... it's fairly clear the Fremen don't look like Puritans. Perhaps Frank Herbert thought about the idea of settlers in a strange land, how they change the land, how the land changes them... and the Puritans where his inspiration... but the Fremen shared very little in common with the Puritans outside of circumstance: Religious Exiles going to a harsh land for a hope of self-determination and building their own society with their values. Obviously, Fremen had space ships.
omnius 2024 年 6 月 21 日 上午 6:22 
引用自 FDR'sThinkTank
I'm fairly certain this guy read some sort of literary analysis or and interview that he has taken out of context to be canon, as opposed to what was likely inspiration. He followed up saying Liet Kynes looked like the Fremen. In the new movie and this game, she does. In the book HE only looks like Fremen when geared up. When he takes his Stillsuit off, his blonde hair and naturally blue (Not blue from the spice stain) eyes give it away.

If you just take Frank Herbert's works and ignore Brian Herbert's later works... it's fairly clear the Fremen don't look like Puritans. Perhaps Frank Herbert thought about the idea of settlers in a strange land, how they change the land, how the land changes them... and the Puritans where his inspiration... but the Fremen shared very little in common with the Puritans outside of circumstance: Religious Exiles going to a harsh land for a hope of self-determination and building their own society with their values. Obviously, Fremen had space ships.

I recently finished reading all 23 Dune novels, which I own, in chronological order of the story over about 6 months. You're the one who read some kind of Dummies guide to the story and lack true understanding. I've had Frank's books for decades, became a fan in the 70's in college. I also bought all of Brian Herbert's and Kevin Anderson's books as they were published so am very well versed in Dune lore. Frank was ahead of his time publishing the first Dune novel in 1965 and it was about ecology long before that became a thing. He also pointed out how easily manipulated religious fanatics can be as well as how easily they can be mislead by evil people. Brian and Kevin did a great job of showing that in their Butlerian Jihad trilogy with Iblis Ginjo who at first was a hero but then became an evil dictator of religious fervor. They also exposed how religious fanatics cling to ignorance over intelligence with their excellent depiction of the crusade against thinking machines. Sad we're seeing this now in our lives and time.

Liet Kynes was half Fremen, his father, Pardot, was an Imperial and his mother a true Fremen. Movies tend to warp books by changing things around so you can't go by the looks in movies where characters like Liet Kynes get changed from man to woman to make the movies more attractive to members of all races and genders which I have no problem with.

Fremen didn't have spaceships until Paul Atreides came along. They lived a simple technology free life in the desert but over time the younger generations began to want the pleasures of modern life with machines doing work instead of the people.

Only a fool would ignore the later books of Brian and Kevin, they carried on Frank's legacy with all of the notes and outlines Frank left behind in a safe deposit box. The whole Dune story Frank envisioned was completed very well by Brian and Kevin, the greatest story ever told!
FDR'sThinkTank 2024 年 6 月 21 日 下午 12:12 
I was talking about the guy you were responding to. All the same...

The Fremen "Had" space ships. They didn't maintain them. Certainly not when those older ships would have either done space travel the old way with cryosleep or at huge risk folding space without a Navigator. The existence of the Spacing Guild suppresses all but the most irrational people to travel outside the Guild's service.

They wanted a homeworld that nobody would bother with. It wasn't until much later that the value of spice was realized. At that point, the Fremen were no longer in a position to travel in space, they lost the knowledge and resources needed to make it happen.

Brian Herbert is a better story teller than Frank, but he isn't as deep and he has a problem that his father didn't have: it's hard to maintain continuity over a massive series. He forgot many little details and ends up making Norma Cenva absurdly powerful in a way that feels like cleaning up mistakes... even if that wasn't the intent.


I suppose Liet Kynes is more complicated than I said, but it would still amount to the same thing. He isn't totally Fremen and often served the Imperium for the purpose of helping the Fremen people. Chani doesn't see herself as anything but Fremen. The point was Liet Kynes was recognized in the Nobility enough to hold a Court Position. The typical Fremen could not do this. They didn't have the education, the connections, or the trust of the Imperium because of their Zensunni lineage. Liet Kynes only serves as a Functionary for the Emperor Corrino, but it's still out of reach for the majority of Fremen. I disagree with your assessment of why they changed it, but it doesn't really matter. When Liet Kynes was first met, they thought he was Fremen, then realized he worked for the Emperor. In the eyes of young Paul, the Fremen identity is interesting, but powerless. Only as an Agent of the Emperor was Liet Kynes potentially helpful. The purpose of Liet Kynes looking different from the Fremen was to illustrate Paul's surprise that a non-Fremen would associate with the Fremen and as deeply as his father envisioned. The same effect is achieved in the movie when Liet Kynes reveals her role as an Agent of the Emperor. The point was that the Duke of Caladan was a benevolent ruler who was surrounded by Nobles who ruthlessly pursued their own interests without considering the common folk. Paul realizes that there are others whose goals aligned with the Duke. He hopes they can help him avenge his father's death.


What doesn't make it into the movie is the Sardaukar being genetically related to the Fremen. Because they aren't. Neither are the Fremen supposed to look like Puritans or appear to be Puritans. And you didn't say either of those crazy things. I was pointing out where they MIGHT have come from.

最后由 FDR'sThinkTank 编辑于; 2024 年 6 月 21 日 下午 12:42
Stardustfire 2024 年 6 月 21 日 下午 1:27 
all 23 novels
seriously? you advice to read the sh.t the son produced? stay at the 6 books from the father, and avoid the sons cashgrab dumppiles....

its funny that Mordred pushed the lore when demmanding Fremen and Smuggler campains when both played no role in the books. yeah the fremen played NO power role in the books before Paul started to lead and unite them. some sabotages and thats it. and the smugglers are criminals, fat chance the complete Landsrat woud say: yeah ok let them control the most valuable substance in the universe that we all want and need. we dont send our combined forces to eradicate them and set again a noble in charge. that stunt wont work. the Fremen only got control because Paul was a Noble and gone a mostly "Empire offical" way to claim teh ruleing, not to mentation the little problem of his thread to destroy all worms and with that all spice. that woud have kicked all this junkys and aynone who want to spacetravel faster than his complete lifetime to th next starsystem in the back, real hard.
最后由 Stardustfire 编辑于; 2024 年 6 月 21 日 下午 1:29
omnius 2024 年 6 月 22 日 上午 6:12 
引用自 Stardustfire
all 23 novels
seriously? you advice to read the sh.t the son produced? stay at the 6 books from the father, and avoid the sons cashgrab dumppiles....

its funny that Mordred pushed the lore when demmanding Fremen and Smuggler campains when both played no role in the books. yeah the fremen played NO power role in the books before Paul started to lead and unite them. some sabotages and thats it. and the smugglers are criminals, fat chance the complete Landsrat woud say: yeah ok let them control the most valuable substance in the universe that we all want and need. we dont send our combined forces to eradicate them and set again a noble in charge. that stunt wont work. the Fremen only got control because Paul was a Noble and gone a mostly "Empire offical" way to claim teh ruleing, not to mentation the little problem of his thread to destroy all worms and with that all spice. that woud have kicked all this junkys and aynone who want to spacetravel faster than his complete lifetime to th next starsystem in the back, real hard.

One man's trash is another man's treasure. You obviously don't have the smarts to see how well Brian and Kevin continued the story but that's your loss. They did a great job of following Frank's notes and outlines to flesh out things that Frank only briefly mentioned like the Butlerian Jihad. They also finished the story that Frank didn't live long enough to do himself. Accusing them of a cash grab is so low life!
Lord Bubba 2024 年 6 月 22 日 上午 7:37 
Gawd! Another flame war! Can't we all just get along?
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发帖日期: 2023 年 9 月 18 日 上午 3:09
回复数: 63