Question about House Ecaz

[Silvertongued Devil]

So, I know very little about House Ecaz. Haven't read the book. This leaves me with a somewhat serious question: are Ecaz supposed to be taken as a colonial power just like the other houses, exploiting Arrakis and it's people for its resources, or are they supposed to be considered the "good guys" at least on par with what Duke Atreides was aiming for?

I'm asking because from what I see Ecaz seems to skew heavily into colonial manipulation.
They've got monuments to impress the locals and draw them in.
They create sanctuaries isolated from everything else - basically a "zoo" of natives to gawk at.
They create a Garden Resort which suggests tourism of some kind, and since attacking it causes such penalties I can only assume it would be swarming with offworld citizens aka the people you're not supposed to kill because they're not the (dirty, unwashed, savage) natives.
They create their own heroes and seemingly publicise it for their own prestige (aka generating hegemony), going "hey look at this cool guy fighting the bad guys."
They monetise their hegemony which, at least to me, suggests that they're making bank off of what impressive stuff they're doing on Arrakis.
They even employ open propaganda, gaining political influence from the deaths of their soldiers, creating fables to inspire their soldiers, etc.

I mean don't get me wrong, they're still nowhere near as cruel as some of the other factions - more like a "we're just helping and protecting them" sort of patronising colonialism like the old Great Powers thought when they were trying to "educate" their "lessers." Of course this makes them look fantastic and generous in front of the rest of the Landsraad but perhaps is somewhat less wholesome at ground level.


Of course they may also just be genuine good guys and I'm looking into details way too needlessly, trying to make a square peg fit a round hole, but I guess even if I'm writing fanfiction it's at least entertaining fanfiction.

[Stardustfire]

They are not from the Original Books, they are "expanded Lore" Crap.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

They are not from the Original Books, they are "expanded Lore" Crap.

Yes, they in fact ARE from the original books, even the first one mentioned them as creators of fine arts.
No, they never made an appearance in person, but neither did Arrakis see open warfare between the noble houses and the emperor, so you're already SoL there.

[GinsengSamurai]

Ecaz *IS* from the original books by Frank Herbert. It was mentioned in Chapterhouse Dune. So like Brian Herbert, Shiro expanded on it.

As a side note, some people say the "expanded Dune universe" isn't officially from the original lore, but the reason why it's called "expanded Dune", was to to help differentiate between Frank Herbert's and Brian Herbert's books. Ultimately, since Herbert Properties (the company) owns the Dune universe, only they can say what is a part of the lore and what isn't. Naysayers like Stardustfire are strangers to the Dune universe. They have opinions, but most of their opinions are just based on personal feelings and are obviously not canon. ;)

You can read more about House Ecaz here: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/House_Ecaz and the expanded universe: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Expanded_Dune

As for Ecaz itself, I don't know anything about their lore. So I have no opinion of them.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Yeah from what I've read of them they're maybe-good guys who were aligning themselves with Atreides and had a big ol' war with some guys who were basically Harkonnen-tier jerks.

That said this is alternate universe Dune with wonky interpretations of everybody involved so it could be that in this one they're a bunch of colonials with an air of legitimacy and caring because they're oh so kind... but in reality it's just propaganda and they're very good at hiding their darker elements.

I feel like the latter, at least, is more interesting than just "we're the good guys and also art."

[GinsengSamurai]

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

I feel like the latter, at least, is more interesting than just "we're the good guys and also art."

I like that idea actually.

Basically, no House is truly 100% 'good'. I mean, at the end of the day, Paul Atreides 'accidentally' started a jihad that waged war across the known universe. His millions of followers started wiping out people that didn't agree with his visions, BUT his followers were following the idea of Paul Atreides, rather than Paul Atreides himself. So while House Atreides might have been seen as noble coinciding their former Duke Leto, it basically turned out to be a genocidal seat of power.

Actually, I'm curious and a bit off topic, sorry, but if you were to introduce another House into DSW, which would you do, and why?

[Silvertongued Devil]

I mean, Duke Leto ultimately wanted to befriend the Fremen because he saw them as a way to get stronger soldiers to make his House stronger, IIRC. He also didn't want to needlessly slaughter people, ofc, because as good leaders know: being liked is way more beneficial than being feared. He was still politically motivated, just in a kinder way.

As far as Paul... I mean, he caught on that the Bene Gesserit had been basically manipulating the Fremen (and everybody else) into having a messianic figure and then positioned himself to become that messianic figure. Pragmatically he basically just walked in and said "Yo I'm Jesus, I have returned and stuff," after a while. He did fight for the Fremen, of course... buuut he also fought for control over the Empire and, as you said, killed a whooole lot of people.

Paul ultimately just did what Leto tried to do but more violently.

Either way I agree that no house is fully "good," though it's still suitable, IMO, for Leto and the Atreides to be the closest to a "good guy" as the setting has, as he ultimately wanted a mutually beneficial relationship with the Fremen and natives of Arrakis. When you start having several "good guys" and they're all saccharine, though, the kindness of the Atreides quickly loses its novelty and effectively robs them of their uniqueness.


Edit: Oh. Um. Honestly? I'd kinda want to slip in Spacing Guild, Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu, or Ix.

Bene Gesserit would be the hardest because they quite literally have no armies, just agents. It'd be cool if they basically latched themselves onto other players - just having a conclave somewhere on the map with some minimal expansion and instead relying on benefiting other players so that they could win at appropriate times. A faction that doesn't really win on it's own, but is in a position where they can benefit both enemies and allies in a grand-scale effort to manipulate the outcome of the conflicts to their benefit.

The Spacing Guild could be viable. Receiving a portion of the spice tithes players pay, unable to trade spice away, and using spice to perform various seemingly supernatural efforts both to the benefit of their forces directly and to whatever faction they might align with. Maybe some unique diplomatic elements like offering soldiers or transport for spice, kind of like the Emperor offers Sardaukar. No direct standing in the Landsraad, but perhaps a few votes to ensure they have political interests. They could give machine parts to other factions to enable more flyers, too. Their expansion could even be restricted somewhat to encourage them to align with others - they don't have the authority to be on-world with a military so it's harder to bring conventional power to bear.

Ix could be interesting in that they routinely implement tech that is borderline illegal. They could have elements where they have unique units or schemes that are extremely effective but cost influence or intel in order to cover up the fact that they're basically playing with fire. Throw in selling technology to other factions ala machine parts, or maybe even as part of a DLC to introduce tanks/vehicles into the game, and they could specialise in that.

The Tleilaxu would definitely have to be, like the Gesserit, a political faction. Perhaps in a boat similar to the Fremen, but they rely on sending Gholas into other factions to conduct espionage. They could copy effects from other factions based on infiltration level, basically becoming a mangled chimera of everybody on the battlefield. Throw in some freaky genetic creations as combat units and I think you could have something fun there. You could even add some really crazy stuff like having "raids" coming from other factions to incite conflicts between them. Really play into the impostor stuff.


As far as the other Houses... well. It's iffy. House Metulli, for example, is a major house - but is only really known for having half their planet sold for spice. You could lean into that and play them up as mercenary types that capture settlements and can uniquely "sell" them to other factions - maybe they're trash at mining spice themselves so to make ends meet they have to cut deals. Throw in some NPC deal options to ensure they can make it.

House Ginaz has swordmasters, but I think that niche is already adopted by Ecaz since Ecaz is notable for employing Ginaz swordmasters and that seems to be the angle taken with them.

House Moritani is probably inevitable now that Ecaz is in, since their story arc largely consists of trying to kill each other (more the former than the latter) - in a "War of Assassins."

Unfortunately, having not really explored the other books too much, I'm not familiar enough with the major houses to make any real arguments for or against them. I figure most of them will have to be created whole-cloth, which Shiro is no doubt excited to do.

[Frag]

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

Bene Gesserit would be the hardest because they quite literally have no armies, just agents. It'd be cool if they basically latched themselves onto other players - just having a conclave somewhere on the map with some minimal expansion and instead relying on benefiting other players so that they could win at appropriate times. A faction that doesn't really win on it's own, but is in a position where they can benefit both enemies and allies in a grand-scale effort to manipulate the outcome of the conflicts to their benefit.

The Spacing Guild could be viable. Receiving a portion of the spice tithes players pay, unable to trade spice away, and using spice to perform various seemingly supernatural efforts both to the benefit of their forces directly and to whatever faction they might align with. Maybe some unique diplomatic elements like offering soldiers or transport for spice, kind of like the Emperor offers Sardaukar. No direct standing in the Landsraad, but perhaps a few votes to ensure they have political interests. They could give machine parts to other factions to enable more flyers, too. Their expansion could even be restricted somewhat to encourage them to align with others - they don't have the authority to be on-world with a military so it's harder to bring conventional power to bear.

Ix could be interesting in that they routinely implement tech that is borderline illegal. They could have elements where they have unique units or schemes that are extremely effective but cost influence or intel in order to cover up the fact that they're basically playing with fire. Throw in selling technology to other factions ala machine parts, or maybe even as part of a DLC to introduce tanks/vehicles into the game, and they could specialise in that.

The Tleilaxu would definitely have to be, like the Gesserit, a political faction. Perhaps in a boat similar to the Fremen, but they rely on sending Gholas into other factions to conduct espionage. They could copy effects from other factions based on infiltration level, basically becoming a mangled chimera of everybody on the battlefield. Throw in some freaky genetic creations as combat units and I think you could have something fun there. You could even add some really crazy stuff like having "raids" coming from other factions to incite conflicts between them. Really play into the impostor stuff.


As far as the other Houses... well. It's iffy. House Metulli, for example, is a major house - but is only really known for having half their planet sold for spice. You could lean into that and play them up as mercenary types that capture settlements and can uniquely "sell" them to other factions - maybe they're trash at mining spice themselves so to make ends meet they have to cut deals. Throw in some NPC deal options to ensure they can make it.

House Ginaz has swordmasters, but I think that niche is already adopted by Ecaz since Ecaz is notable for employing Ginaz swordmasters and that seems to be the angle taken with them.

House Moritani is probably inevitable now that Ecaz is in, since their story arc largely consists of trying to kill each other (more the former than the latter) - in a "War of Assassins."

Unfortunately, having not really explored the other books too much, I'm not familiar enough with the major houses to make any real arguments for or against them. I figure most of them will have to be created whole-cloth, which Shiro is no doubt excited to do.

The Bene Gesserit do actually have large armies. It's not really written about until post Leto II but they own many planets and command millions of troops led by former Sardaukar officers (or at least leadership that uses the Imperial ranks). They're in a constant war for survival with a faction called Honored Matres after they return from the Scattering. They're basically the premier power in the galaxy for ages.

The Guild are already in the game as a mechanic so I'm not sure how they could be implemented more than one way but you never know. Maybe they could just make a ♥♥♥♥ ton of money and hire mercenaries or something.

Ix and Tleilaxu I could definitely see. Advanced war machines, WMDs for Ix, trade bonuses with other factions. The Tleilaxu have Face Dancers, which seem to double as spies/assassins and a sort of soldier caste. They're all over the place since the time of Leto II, maybe they could make something based off that? Northgard has a Snake Clan, I could kinda see Tleilaxu working like that.

Iirc Moritani got wiped out in the War of Assassins but there's a lot of houses, they could make their mechanics up as they go really. Like Westwood made House Ordos out of nothing and people loved it.

[Stardustfire]

i read all 6 original books, and there where never any interaction with such a house, at best they where maybe in a one sentence sidenote i forget than because of that irelevance, but never a active post in any of sayed 6 original books.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

i read all 6 original books, and there where never any interaction with such a house, at best they where maybe in a one sentence sidenote i forget than because of that irelevance, but never a active post in any of sayed 6 original books.

Then you didn't read very carefully because Ecaz is in the book and even gets an entry in the appendix as a planet of sculptors and being the source of the wood that's named after it.

Also, funny how the trolls whine that House Ecaz isn't in the book...but cry for House Ordos which isn't mentioned at all in any of the books and only from the non-canon encyclopedia.

Why are the trolls so utterly incapable to hide the fact that they never even read one sentence in any of the Dune books?

[Will]

If you think you're the good guy, on a quest to make the world a better place and filled with righteous rage....you're actually the bad guy. History proves it over and over.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Originally posted by Frag:

The Bene Gesserit do actually have large armies. It's not really written about until post Leto II but they own many planets and command millions of troops led by former Sardaukar officers (or at least leadership that uses the Imperial ranks). They're in a constant war for survival with a faction called Honored Matres after they return from the Scattering. They're basically the premier power in the galaxy for ages.

The Guild are already in the game as a mechanic so I'm not sure how they could be implemented more than one way but you never know. Maybe they could just make a ♥♥♥♥ ton of money and hire mercenaries or something.

Ix and Tleilaxu I could definitely see. Advanced war machines, WMDs for Ix, trade bonuses with other factions. The Tleilaxu have Face Dancers, which seem to double as spies/assassins and a sort of soldier caste. They're all over the place since the time of Leto II, maybe they could make something based off that? Northgard has a Snake Clan, I could kinda see Tleilaxu working like that.

Iirc Moritani got wiped out in the War of Assassins but there's a lot of houses, they could make their mechanics up as they go really. Like Westwood made House Ordos out of nothing and people loved it.

Bene Gesserit have armies? Neat. Maybe they're more viable than I thought. Being able to give Bene Gessert agents to other factions would be a fun way to (hopefully) create a bit more diplomatic depth into the game - with factions having unique stuff they can offer and junk.

Sure the guild are already in the game - but so are the Bene Gesserit. They're significantly rarer but they exist! I suppose my desire for them stems partially from the old Westwood games and dynamic of the old board game. Everybody has dealings with them so they're rarely a direct enemy, but rather are an indirect foe that makes the occasional appearance to screw things up. Being able to drop everywhere without an airport, for example, or having some spooOOooky spice-granted powers.

I feel like Ix, at least, would be an excellent "totally not Ordos" faction to satisfy the westwood fanboys, though. Make a DLC where they come in bringing HERETIKAL TEKNOLOGIE and give the factions a vehicle or two while the Ix specialise in having more of them. Not spammable, ofc, but just one or two - rare, like aircraft. Could be fun introducing things where their main form of protection is ludicrous amounts of armour and being particularly attractive to worms, encouraging their uses on certain terrain. Also big gun. I want the big gun. Give me the big gun.

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Also, funny how the trolls whine that House Ecaz isn't in the book...but cry for House Ordos which isn't mentioned at all in any of the books and only from the non-canon encyclopedia.

In their defense: Ordos was really cool. I'd want them too if I didn't know the grim reality of copyright law.
Sincerely, a Macross fan.

;-;

[Stardustfire]

Bene Gesserit haveing Armys woud be murky in the Timeline. in the first Books they are more described like a Religous Chapter, and there Ladys working mostly as counselors, pulling strings from behind with advice. so at that point there is no real clear statement they have armys.
With the Worm Emperor, they where left mostly unharmed because the Worm taken amusement from there struggle (he got total control of the now scarce spice, and the highr up ladys are spice junkys not far behind the navigation guild) , at that point many powers perished. it seems that was the same time where they shifted to a more militaery power aproach to stay alive vs the other leftover powerhouses. at the same time there goals shifted (lets get out own worm farm) , there first "goal" was already existant, minus the big point that they cant control it.

point is, betwen this 2 points in the timeline allllooooootttt of generations came and gone again.
so giving the Gesserit Armys woud be very strechty at the point where the game takes place. also the motivation. the Gesserit where mostly occupied with there goal of Breeding strong Lineages by selection, no need for cash/open influence/spice to archive that. they where not up to openly wielding power at that point in time.

[votadc]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

i read all 6 original books, and there where never any interaction with such a house, at best they where maybe in a one sentence sidenote i forget than because of that irelevance, but never a active post in any of sayed 6 original books.

Then you didn't read very carefully because Ecaz is in the book and even gets an entry in the appendix as a planet of sculptors and being the source of the wood that's named after it.

Also, funny how the trolls whine that House Ecaz isn't in the book...but cry for House Ordos which isn't mentioned at all in any of the books and only from the non-canon encyclopedia.

Why are the trolls so utterly incapable to hide the fact that they never even read one sentence in any of the Dune books?

The non canon was approved by Herbert himself. It Is criticized because It wasn't directly written by him. There Is the complete list of house. There isn't Ecaz there because there is already Ecaz planet. Even Corrino that are named after a planet have a slightly different name.

Main reason of Ecaz presence Is the board game.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by votadc:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Then you didn't read very carefully because Ecaz is in the book and even gets an entry in the appendix as a planet of sculptors and being the source of the wood that's named after it.

Also, funny how the trolls whine that House Ecaz isn't in the book...but cry for House Ordos which isn't mentioned at all in any of the books and only from the non-canon encyclopedia.

Why are the trolls so utterly incapable to hide the fact that they never even read one sentence in any of the Dune books?

The non canon was approved by Herbert himself. It Is criticized because It wasn't directly written by him. There Is the complete list of house. There isn't Ecaz there because there is already Ecaz planet. Even Corrino that are named after a planet have a slightly different name.

Main reason of Ecaz presence Is the board game.

No, it's criticised because you fascists prove once again to be hypocrites, whining about the game not being 100% faithful to the book while blasting it for not including non-canon inventions.

You are just fishing for excuses to bash the game, all just because the thought of a black woman in a position of authority makes you feel weak.

[GinsengSamurai]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

No, it's criticised because you prove once again to be hypocrites, whining about the game not being 100% faithful to the book while blasting it for not including non-canon inventions.

Exactly this.

It's one thing to say, "I don't like how Shiro changed the original lore to this modern adaptation", but it's a totally hypocritical thing to say, "Shiro doesn't respect the Frank Herbert lore! They suck! Shiro should have added House Ordos instead of this crap House Ecaz!!11! I WANT MY SONIC TANKS!!!11CRY@@!!"