Harkonnen Needs Nerfed. Hard.

[Imperator RAD-X]

Call this a cope thread but I wouldn't be making this if I didn't feel this was necessary at this point. There is utterly no point in playing multiplayer matches or even single player for that matter when dealing with Harkonnen.

Since the Harkonnen at this point in time completely break the game, and I can prove it, I'll be detailing my reasons here on why they need hard nerfed. I'm not sure why Harkonnen as a house has been allowed to be given the monumental amount of buffs that make every other house pale in comparison.

They are *NOT* fun to play against and only serve to give people headaches.

Militarily, the Harkonnen are dominant - that much is obvious, but it's incredibly frustrating to see how they excel in every single possible facet of Spice Wars, from the Landsraad, combat, operations, economy, diplomacy, unit selection & buffs - the list goes on.

Combat Drugs

30% attack speed buffs for -50 HP a day. This is morbidly insane and puts even Sardaukar to shame with how fundamentally broken this is. Nevermind the swarm of executioners, cerberus and gunners with their also extremely annoying damage and armour buffs. Combine that in their own settlement with heavy militia swarms and there's physically no point in fighting them unless they attack you, which in turn you're still screwed anyway if it's an overwhelming army combo above.

Not even a Fremen army is going to survive this. At all.

30% damage increase on a *whole* army with massive health, so -50 health a day means little to nothing at all given how time in the game functions. This needs reduced by half to 15% damage increase if it's staying.

Corruption

-30 Landsraad on anyone voting on a legislation that gets the maximum vote, while it soft-locks said legislation to Harkonnen via immunity which is a massive counter to Corrino's Imperial meddling or anyone voting, making that also pales in comparison. This is ridiculous. Who designed this? -30 LR each time and it's practically spammed?

LR is very hard to gain in Dune: Spice Wars. I can't honestly see how this is balanced when some goofy bald dude comes over and spills oil all over the system and gets away with it. And not only that, but them getting away with it EVERY TIME is even more ludicrous. The corruption from Harkonnen needs redesigned.

The Overlord

You've got be kidding me with how this super unit works.

A mass-swarm of suicide sting drones which wipe out entire units or armies in seconds? Two stings drones PER DAY with up to FIVE STINGS? They also SELF-REPAIR?!

There's physically no counter to this. As soon as the drones fly, you might as well turn the game's name from "Dune: Spice Wars" to "Damn: I'm Dead". House Vernius could only drool and dream of having something like this since practically everything about them from the DLC practically sucks, but combine that with Harkonnen's other operation abilities and buffs - yeah, says enough about this super unit.

If anything, an Overlord should have the passive 30% damage buff instead of combat drugs being an operation and the drones wiping everyone out in two seconds. Even ones with high armour. Very bothersome. If the whole point of the name of their super unit is an 'Overlord' - then that's what it should be produced to do. Instead this contraption makes the Ixians outpaced by a couple of Oil-Baked mental patients.

Harkonnen Units & Heroes

See, Harkonnen troopers and cerberus seem balanced enough, they have their uses and counters. Anything else other than those two? Broken.

Gunners with damage dealt get a 200% bonus up to their maximum lost health. Combine with their firepower bonus... you get the point.
Executioners with bloodthirsty stacks and infusion upgrades. A copy pasted Atreides unit of the same type but basically better. Can also be spammed with never-ending swarms due to command points and rather cheap to build.
Rabban giving every single village heavy militia for free, and giving more drugs ontop of drugs buffing their units already. Also a very powerful hero.

Oppression

And this is where their economy breaks (for the benefit of themselves) the game. Oppress a settlement, you get buffs to practically all resource incomes barring manpower if not careful. Only someone who's not paying attention will spam the office buildings.

Get a rebellion? Wouldn't matter, you're covered by the militia swarms that will give you free money every executed rebel. Harks don't even need to work for their income anymore, they can just sit back slap a few rebels in every important sector and just get 50+ Solari a kill, or more if the villages give Solari bounty bonuses.

For oppressing a settlement, you'll lose nothing but gain everything, and manpower income eventually stabilises.

Sacrifice Agent

Makes sense, but does it? Harkonnen already get strong agents but they can sacrifice their own to practically guarantee a successful OP. Wouldn't matter about the loss, you'll just passively (and quickly) gain agents. Not much loss to this.

In Conclusion

I'm probably missing a handful of things given this thread is solely based upon how, in my interpretations listed above - Harkonnen is completely needing redesigned. They don't make the game entertaining when playing *against* them, they are so powerful that any other faction gets eclipsed and their command cap is also insanely strong to produce a red-tidal-wave of never ending elite units.

Please balance this house. It's gotten away with it long enough.

[mazy]

I'm curious what you think about some of the new perks the executioner got with this new update, mainly meat Armour. Also, the overlord isn't that op... it's kind of just a win-more tool, odds are if you have an overlord with a large army to support it you are going to win anyway. the difference those stings make on for example a main base siege is not a lot. It's also extremely slow so the only time it makes sense to use it is with a large attack. I agree that Harkonen is strong, oppression is probably the best economic ability in the game.

[Imperator RAD-X]

Ursprungligen skrivet av mazy:

I'm curious what you think about some of the new perks the executioner got with this new update, mainly meat Armour.

Sorry for the wait, I wanted to experiment further.

An active operation from Harkonnen gives +1 armour to all units, in combination with the 30% bonus from C-Drugs. 5 CP per Executioner. Combine with Adrenaline Addiction and attack speed buffs, wouldn't matter. If attacking with Arrakis' Butchers and dealing 50% extra to militia by other factions, still in a crazy level of capability.

Not to mention their main base gets two full tier-three districts which, if militarily applied; give +1 extra more armour and 20% HP, with an extra 10% involving a barracks.

Insane.

EDIT: Harkonnen with their eco can easily get CHOAM on 30% and get an extra 15% power.

EDIT 2: 20% more with a military factory, globally with the -20% damage sustained scaled with a military base locally.

Given that if you have a massive swarm of those soldiers with the meat armour with the -10% damage sustained again, it wouldn't matter. All of them are martydom soldiers with the capability of killing and being killed, only to rise back from the dead and murder their foes without problems.

[Vain]

Sounds like you failed to play around their weaknesses and got stomped as a result (weak early game, weak against ranged, etc.) Yup chief, I diagnose ye with skill issue. Cure? git gud

[Imperator RAD-X]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Vain:

Sounds like you failed to play around their weaknesses and got stomped as a result (weak early game, weak against ranged, etc.)

There's absolutely no gameplay loop that involves the Harkonnen being weak to ranged units in this regard. Get a better argument and with valid proof, thanks.

[emontyj]

I'm glad; I always thought harkonnen should be the most militaristic and others need to bypass a frontal assault to weaken and break down this opponent. I havn't figured out how to play them yet.

[Kolopaper]

And yet most players believe harkonnen to be at the weaker side of the game, which i agree. While hark is not weak per se, they don't win that often compared to other factions.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

There are counter arguments to this entire thing. It seems a bit much to get into...
but we will just hit one of the easy ones: Harkonnen is pretty weak with ranged. You're looking at the Gunner and saying "Low health, big damage" and when you run Red Fluid with that, it all seems pretty honky dory... but that's against A.I.

Human players have many different options:
1. Priortizing low health targets is the simplest one... which doesn't work well with melee heavy armies, but with more ranged options, crushes.
2. Humans can also wait until you're in the middle of crushing a precious rebellion to attack you and slam you hard for your high health cost tactics. While no faction is strong to being Ambushed, the Harkonnen are particularly weak to it and have more occassion for it to actually happen if they use Oppression.
3. Hit and Run, particularly when you are out of your territory. Even if you are inside your territory, your units have to have their out of combat cool down proc to even begin healing, so someone can continually harass you from the edges if they want. I doubt you will sit there and take it, but Red Fluid only makes you attack faster. Harkonnen Units are still some of the slowest, particularly their Gunner Units.... who only are a threat when they are most at risk of dying. There are enemy units that have "first Hit" mechanics that reward firing a shot, running away, getting "out of combat", then coming back and shooting again. It's a micromanagement intensive technique, so you won't see the A.I. doing it well at all. Many humans will disdain to do this as well, because done poorly, you can easily get wiped out taking fleeing damage.

By the way, how's your manpower? Your Water Levels? Both easily sabotaged resources that Harkonnen is heavily reliant on. Nevermind sabotage, it's difficult to get up and running because you generally have to choose one or the other early game. Other factions don't need to heal as much early game because their soldiers have more endurance, so they can focus on water and have high mobility and loot recovery. Harkonnen aren't taking territories as quickly between healing up, hiring militia, and dealing with rebellions.... nevermind that other factions have shortcuts to gaining territory that Harkonnen does not.

There is more I could get into, but I suspect you aren't going to be receptive to these points. The thing is, the Devs specifically designed the Harkonnen with a weakness to ranged combat tactics.... so even if you don't acknowledge it, it's understood by most who play the game based on design principles that went into the game. What do you consider valid proof?

[hannibal_pjv]

All balance things needs a lot of multiplayer play throughs by multible people to get right… because different factions players differently. You have to play and play Against differently.
To my eyes factions are relative balanced. You just have toknow their strong points and weakneses. And as i said… we need a lot of multiplayer results to see if there is any balance issues and to what direction.
Do we have any staitstic about winning rates of different houses Against certain other houses? I mean thousends and thousends of them? If not…

[Imperator RAD-X]

Ursprungligen skrivet av OmniWarpLuck:

There are counter arguments to this entire thing. It seems a bit much to get into... What do you consider valid proof?

For the first thing to state - I thank you for one: Providing a good handful of points to this and two, taking the time to write it. The first thing you wouldn't need to put into question in regards to my retort would be thinking I'd not be receptive or open to it. *Maybe you are* right when it comes to ranged tactics and I'll have to experiment on why it is. While I may just lay my hands down at the ranged combat weaknesses, especially with units being primarily good in that regard from Atreides & Ecaz, the rest I'm fully solidified in.

However, what I do consider valid proof is statements the devs made themselves like people keep saying (Where are these statements? What are they?), streams or videos that prove these points, or guides that specifically outline said weaknesses to the faction. Seems to be very limited in this regard to what's actually available, information wise.

Every time I've seen the Harks they mega-expand quickly with next to no problems in both multi (other players) and single player. This is not an understatement. My experiences far differ from yours. There's a specific meta involved with them where water and manpower become physical non-issues even early game, especially very early in research & base development.

So even if they are problems, which I admit there will be - that's applied for any house, just it's more an obstacle for Harks than anyone else which can easily be moved.

Ir-regardless, that still doesn't elucidate on what I've described with the rest of this post as somewhat game-breaking yet despite them being mentioned as a bit much to get into: the Landsraad Corruption for one being the worst. One vote makes or breaks a playthrough and it only costs 20 intel. That's hyper-cheap and intel is supremely easy to get. In contrast, Corrino needs to use *influence* to shift around their *own* Imperial Resolution and can get heavily punished by either the Fremen with rebellions, or the Harks with that Corruption play, one of these being a non-issue and the other having ever lasting effects. That's my biggest problem that, for a militaristic faction based on aggressive action, somehow manages to obliterate LR standing of any faction, while primarily holding one S+ Tier ability in politics with it being risky enough to be a permanent effect (barring you have treaties but still a large net loss). That's what I would consider unbalanced that needs direct change to something else.

[TomOfFinland]

I have to agree with you. Harkonnen military is insanely difficult to kill. Or I just don't know how to deal with them.

[MagentaHawk]

Competitively the Harkonnen are generally considered weaker now than they were previous to the patch and that they are mid tier now. It's pretty insane to me to see someone lauding one house as the strongest and there is no mention of Corrino.

Also Hark military is fun, but in no way is the best, and the flagship is, once again, not even the best flagship of the bunch. It got better now, which is nice, but it's not an overpowering monstrosity. I'd much rather have a ship that is a flying airstrip as well as deals solid damage, as well as heals itself.

[Malachite]

atredias most op imo, rewarded for sitting doing ♥♥♥♥ all and can troll with jessica every 5 mins. They get access to most win cons whereas most other factions only get one or two realistically

[Spine]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Malachite:

atredias most op imo, rewarded for sitting doing ♥♥♥♥ all and can troll with jessica every 5 mins. They get access to most win cons whereas most other factions only get one or two realistically

Just pray that you dont border fremen at the start.