Combat in Dune

[Falaris]

It's too long since I read the books. But I remember combat and troops being something along these lines...

House Troops - of which there are many variants, it's the catchall name for a house's troops. (Duh!). They are commonly equipped with a bladed weapon, with a dart gun or needle projector as side arm. Some used maula pistols - spring loaded pistols with poison darts. The projectile weapons were of very limited use against shields, but became very common on Dune as shields were not used as consistently.

Some house troops were armored, some used lasguns, some more exotically armed, like gas weapons or rockets. As you wouldn't use lasguns against shields, it was never a mass deployed weapon; it was often used more against vehicles. Armor wasn't much use against these.

Shields were standard issue for house troops; it's what dictated tactics on the battlefield. "Shields" are not pavises and tower shields, but full-coverage force fields. There are mention of 'half shields' but in the context of a shield Feyd Rautha equipped his training opponent (slaves, usually) to make it more of a sport but not even. (They were also drugged. He wasn't a fan of fair fights). There is little reason to believe it was used in other situations.

Combat in Dune is, at its heart, a personal contest of skill and determination between men. It is not a conflict of machines and tools. The best troops are the most skilled ones. In this context, the Sardaukar were head and shoulders above any other troops - or, they had been. Hardship makes stronger fighters, and they had gotten more used to luxuries afforded them as the Emperor's elite troops. At the time of Dune, they would be supplanted by the Fremen as the premier troops of the Empire.

But that doesn't mean there were no vehicles. There were, but due to the sand and sandworms, only a limited selection were used on Dune, and not the most extravagant combat vehicles.

First and foremost, Ornithopters. They came in different sizes and shapes, from the small spotter Ornithopters to the giant Carryalls. Often equipped with lasguns or missiles, they were actually effective combat vehicles, troop transports, and all round utility and combat vehicles. There's specific scout ornithopters, spotters, and the more 'regular' Ornithopters for combat and troop transports (they could carry 6-9 troopers and up to several weapon systems.

Secondly, groundcars were a common sight, usually for transportation, often within cities but also in the desert. It was part of the 'point' of the book, to illustrate that the Harkonnen sacrificed practicality and safety for luxury and laziness. Groundcars were quite problematic, both for maintenance (sand caused extreme wear and tear) and being wormed. The Sandworms cause liquefaction in sand, reasonably making groundcars unable to move once the Sandworm is on the attack. Fremen absolutely disdained the Harkonnen for ther groundcars and walked everywhere, and if I remember correctly, the Atreides increasingly copied that. They were mostly used as APC's, and while they could be used as fighting vehicles, troops would dismount for combat.

There are also levis, flyers, aircars using suspensor technology. (Repulsorlifts in a certain other sci-fi setting.). They did not play a significant role in the novels, I *THINK*.

Now, in the game there's Drones - which imply they are automated vehicles. After the butlerian Jihad, computers were outlawed. I have serious doubts about these things. Yes, you had the hunter-seeker in the palace, but that was an assassin's toy, As previously mentioned, combat was generally speaking between fighters, not machines.

I would like to see combat a more fluid affair. Perhaps I'm spoilt with Total War Warhammer, but having house troops start an engagement with a ranged volley while charging into battle would be cool - and appropriate. Have troops have more than one weapon, and use them in different situations. Not have troops armed with what looks like clubs and/or medieval shields, that's just ... no.

Have a few different troop types, based on what the squad support weapon was - lasguns (anti-unshielded infantry, anti-vehicle), explosives (anti-building), or a swordmaster (more elite regular soldiers) etc.

Sardaukar are ninjas. Seriously. They were trained with dirty tricks in mind, but they used individual techniques; there was no constant you could prepare for, other than to prepare for the unexpected. One of their more exotic and gruesome weapons was a spiked (hair) net they'd throw over shielded troops, which would sink through the shield and then sting with poisoned spikes. Poisons and nasty little hidden weapons for surprise. They were good soldiers, but also good tacticians. Also, at their best they were rated as some of the best swordsmen of the empire, but that was before their recent decline. They're still really good though... just not as good as their reputation. And they were still also battlefield troops with lasguns etc.

Fremen didn't have any of that. They had their blades - krysknives - and a ferocious will to win and survive. They were skilled combatants, especially to fighting without shields - something which stood them in good stead on Dune, but less so on other planets. They knew the planet and its ways, and could use the terrain in ways others didn't know. They were more than a match for Sardaukar, which I remember feeling sorry for in the later parts of the books. They were made to look like bumbling fools next to the Fremen - typical Dragons in TV-Tropes.

Special mention of "battle language" - a combination of code, tactical shorthand and signage used by every major fighting force in the setting. I don't know if that is the Sardaukar's muezzin chant in the film, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

All fair points

[Stardustfire]

the "half shield" was something used in an arena fight. not sure where you got the mindset from that all in dune was only swordplay, maybe from the same sceen? if yes reread it, you will find that the warprisoner Feyd fought against was not fond of the melee weapon, what means not the majority are melee fighters. the thing with the shields was shown correct in the old film, the shields dont disperse force, they repeal it, thats why shoot projetils just bounce of and only a slow low force movement coud peenetrate it.
the drones on the other hand are indeed a strange design choise given the AI Ban. woud be best to think of them as actual Drones what are too steered from far away.

[Sikko]

Very good summary,

[TheIceWendigo]

You can just imagine Drones to be remotely piloted by staff in a bunker and that would be ok for the Butlerian Jihad.

[Falaris]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Stardustfire:

the "half shield" was something used in an arena fight. not sure where you got the mindset from that all in dune was only swordplay, maybe from the same sceen? if yes reread it, you will find that the warprisoner Feyd fought against was not fond of the melee weapon

Yes, I mentioned the arena fight to specifically mention that was the only place half-shields were mentioned used. I didn't even mention what the duel was fought with otherwise.

As for where I got the idea everything was swordplay - where did you get the idea I think so? I mention lasguns, gas, rockets, dart guns, needle projectors, maula guns.

But the grand conceit of the book is that the core of combat is knife/swordfights between shielded opponents. It does dictate all other combat technology - every gun, every assassin drone, every weapon is made relative to shields.

Oprindeligt skrevet af TheIceWendigo:

You can just imagine Drones to be remotely piloted by staff in a bunker and that would be ok for the Butlerian Jihad.

Remote controlling drones without computer assistance is... kinda awkward. Remember, it's not only AI's which are outlawed, but computers. (Although the lines ... blur. You obviously have electronics, for instance, but how advanced can electronics be before they're computers?

The difference between a drone and a remote controlled craft is that a drone can fly autonomously (I think). If you stop piloting it, it doesn't immediately crash, but it does its own thing. You don't 'fly' today's drones, you tell them where to go and then it does the flying to get there.

That relies fairly heavily on computers, at least in our world. Perhaps more importantly, I think the only drone mentioned in the books were the hunter-killer assassin drone; probably not the height of legality in the first place. (Although... assassination is a legal stratagem in conflicts.).

Still... I don't like them, but it's not a hill I'll make my last stand on. :)

[Sikko]

I think the modern definition of a drone is a remote controlled vehicle without a pilot on board. You don't need a computer for something like this. Just the tech of a digital remote controlled car and the tech for digital television.

However, I did not see the point for this game to have drones present. These flying vehicles could also be piloted by a single person, and this way being light attack/support aircrafts.

[Calrid]

The Landsraad Knights probably took over as the best Elite force because the Sarduakar became arrogant and decadent, although in a desert environment nothing beats the Fremen Feydakin for sheer carnage, when Paul Atreides went up against Imperial Sarduakar with his elite Fremen it was not even a fair fight.


And yeah drones typically have remote control, but ornithopter spotters have got to be preferable to drones, as they are simply less fallible and can discriminate far better than automated craft.

[Falaris]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Calrid:

And yeah drones typically have remote control, but ornithopter spotters have got to be preferable to drones, as they are simply less fallible and can discriminate far better than automated craft.

The Ornithopters we have in-game likely is the spotter variant since they are unarmed.. not that I'm saying something new or revolutionary here. Just that there should be other ornithopters at some point.

[Stardustfire]

maybe mentat aspirants are used to control the drones? hey, they are the biological computer "replacement" :)

[votadc]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Calrid:

The Landsraad Knights probably took over as the best Elite force because the Sarduakar became arrogant and decadent, although in a desert environment nothing beats the Fremen Feydakin for sheer carnage, when Paul Atreides went up against Imperial Sarduakar with his elite Fremen it was not even a fair fight.


And yeah drones typically have remote control, but ornithopter spotters have got to be preferable to drones, as they are simply less fallible and can discriminate far better than automated craft.

Sardaukar are mass produced because they have an entire planet to being raised and trained. Unlike Fremen are more flexible (Paul want to control them) because they specialized in shield combat but they are so reliant on shields that perform very poorly against Fremen. Spice Wars Is different because troops can use shields. Landsraad Knight better in quality than Sardaukar should be hero units that you can have 2-3 max regardless your Manpower

[Calrid]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Falaris:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Calrid:

And yeah drones typically have remote control, but ornithopter spotters have got to be preferable to drones, as they are simply less fallible and can discriminate far better than automated craft.

The Ornithopters we have in-game likely is the spotter variant since they are unarmed.. not that I'm saying something new or revolutionary here. Just that there should be other ornithopters at some point.

Well the difference between a spotter and a military ornithopter is simply a matter of putting weapons on the conventional ornithopter like SAMs and heavy machine guns/energy weapons, same basic design although the military ornithopters probably are heavier and have armour.