Bene Gesserit faction

[Outcast]

Ey guys I am new to the game but it’s a blast so far. Im just finishing the 6th book in the series and I would love to have the Bene Gesserit as a playable faction. Here is my take on it hope it's worth your time since it's kinda long.

The Mothers should be a pure pacifist faction. They should have no access to military units and should not be able to capture territories while heavily relying on spice for Gesserit reasons.

The faction's playstyle should be active pacifism. The gameplay is limited early game, challenging mid game and overpowered late game if you survive long enough.

The Bene Gesserit cannot capture territories (directly), cannot harvest spice (since they cannot capture areas), do not have access to CHOAM trades and do not vote in the Landsraad council (directly). Now I know what you gonna say but stick with me my story gets better.

The Mothers do not pay the emperors tax. The Mothers cannot be attacked. The periodic payments in spice should be to the chapterhouse and to the base depending on a number of acolytes and mothers under the player's control. In addition the mothers pay a tax to the spacing guild in cash.

The Reverend Mothers receive a cash tribute from every neutral village on the game map (rate adjusted for map size. The bigger the map the less each village pays). Villages captured by factions pay no tribute. So the more other control the less you get and there is no way of stopping that since the Mothers have no army. We can still get our money in other ways. The Mothers can see every sietch on the map. I also say they should have no fog of war and have the entire map open from the start. No Thopters needed.

The Mothers rely heavily on trades and pacts between them and other factions. All the spice comes from trades only. Since you cannot control territories in early game, spice is all that we trade for. No zones to control no buildings to build.

Instead of agents the Bene Gesserit recruit acolytes. Acolytes can either be assigned to a faction to channel cash in accordance with the number of controlled territories by the faction or can be assigned to the main keep on Arrakis for training to become a Reverend Mother (This is where the reason for tax to the guild from. Getting the acolytes to Arrakis).
Acolyte assigned to the faction is seen by the faction (we don’t spy so no reason to hide). The acolyte reveals information according to her training lvl and her traits in addition to channeling cash. We can have a few acolytes assigned to the same faction (lets say max 3 like the agents).

The Reverend Mother training should be a long process and should have a small death chance every day. Multiple stages (say 5) or levels should be achieved. Every lvl increases death chance if training continues and each lvl gives an extra trait or increases the value of a present trait (say channel extra 25% cash or reveal CHOAM shares since we as Bene Gesserit have no access to CHOAM and so on). The bonus traits should make the acolyte more and more valuable to the player. Once the training is complete (lvl 5 reached) the player should get a prompt to choose either to ascend the acolyte to become a Mother or keep her in her current state and instead assign her to a faction. If the player chooses ascension the acolyte can be lost to the agony. I say a 50/50 chance sounds ok. IF the acolyte survives she becomes a Reverend Mother. This one can either be deployed to the world map or can be sent to the factions except for the smugglers.

A Mother as a unit can be sent to a sietch and assigned there similarly to the agent being assigned to a sietch. While in the sietch the territory of the sietch is turned to the players control and we can finally start building stuff (NO HARVESTERS) or maybe you still can't build anything but if the territory has buildings they switch hands to you (the mothers can capture territories belonging to other factions). The territory can be taken back by destroying the sietch but the Fremen of the sietch become very hard to kill due to religious frenzy of having the Reverend Mother in their home (the Fremen deployment is automatic like the militia). Now we start trading for other resources not only for spice. Maybe have the sietch provide some spice to the sisterhood.

The other choice we have is to send our Mother to one of the factions. While there the Mother reveals more information, channels more cash and according to her traits can start developing influence to advise the votes on the Landsraad council. The longer she stays the more influence she gathers. No more than one mother can be assigned to a faction. A faction can refuse to house a Reverend Mother but that decision should be punishing. While a faction houses a Mother they should be immune to assassination attempts. If the Mother has the Thrutsayer trait all enemy agents are revealed (not captured but refunded to the faction who sent them). This way the factions have a reason to take in the Reverend Mother and tank the cash siphoning cost of her staying in their keep.

Now the more acolytes we have the more spice we have to keep for ourselves. If we miss the spice tax or the cash tax the acolyte recruitment becomes slower. Unlike the emperors spice tax the chapter house missed quotas are remembered and even doubled after a time. Mother Superior has her demands and you have to provide. However you the player need the spice to train your Reverened Mother which MIGHT die in training. This is the point where you have the challenging gameplay balancing your spice between getting new acolytes or training a unit that provides you victory. If your spice tax becomes too big you lose.

About the voting on Landsraad council the access to the votes should open to the Bene Gesserit player once he has a Mother housed by a faction. Instead of the votes and counted in the usual way you are asked to mark priority on your ballots. High medium and low priorities are to be assigned to the three ballots. If the Mother has a high enough influence level in the faction there is a higher chance that the faction will vote accordingly putting more votes into the higher priority ballot. The trick here is once you have a mother in every faction you have full control on politics but this goal should be very hard to achieve. You can make factions go to war with each other as well in the same way.

Lastly once you have a sister in a sietch you can start the Shai Hulud research in the main keep. It should be taxing spice wise and cash wise. Basically you are trying to get a worm off planet so you have to pay a ton of cash to the guild and need a bunch of spice for the worm not to die.

Due to taxation and limited production options this factions must remain active in trading and politics trough the session giving you a little different type of game.

You win by three conditions:
1. Influence 10 votes in a row according to your demands or have a Reverend Mother in the factions that hold the council seats (ALL OF THEM). Political victory.
2. Have only one faction left on the map besides you and have a Reverend Mother in that faction. NOT an acolyte. War victory
3. Complete the Shai Hulud research. A very long research (similar to hegemony victory in length so about 3-4 hours game… again im new im sorry if people finish it faster).

Thoughts?

[FDR'sThinkTank]

I don't know that I can see them actually making a playable faction without military units, territory assets, or a headquarters... but they definitely need to adjust a few things in terms of victory conditions for the faction. The key problem is most of your time in this game is spent interacting with those military units, moving to objectives, getting rewards, building... taking that ALL out for a faction is crazy.

Not that this will affect Shiro's ultimate decision on this matter, but in the Gale Force 9 Board game, the Bene Gesserit Faction still have a fighting force. This is because the Bene Gesserit are NOT, in fact, Pacifists. They typically operate behind the scenes, meaning they don't need to engage in frontline combat... but every Bene Gesserit Sister is trained in multiple forms of combat. The Reverend Mother's even share genetic Memories that stretch back to The Sorceress Witches of Rossak.... who were humanities front line weapons in the Butlerian Jihad... basically human Atomic Weapons. The Bene Gesserit only have ONE goal at this point in time: The Survival of Humanity, which is still uncertain based on their calculations and measurements. They are pathologically committed to this. While some Reverend Mother's may disagree on the path to achieve this, there are common grounds they all share and typically they are relatively free to pursue whatever they feel is necessary because each Reverend Mother carries the genetic memories of every woman who she descended from. If they determine a House, a planet, a people must die to ensure the survival of Humanity... they will do whatever it takes to make that happen. Normally they stay hidden, but if circumstances demand they operate openly, they won't shy away from it.

Forcing rival factions to go to war in this game is a very silly thing. Yes, it would be effective on Computer Opponents... but it shouldn't be. It's totally MEANINGLESS for humans if you kill their treaty. IF you're the player they want to destroy, they will keep targeting you... or obstructing you. If the Bene Gesserit are a playable faction, it's nonsensical to have Great Houses or active factions acting against their own interests in anything other than a short term obstacle. You will either make the Bene Gesserit impossible to defeat or impossible to win as, because you've taken the core mechanism for interfering in their goals out of the game. You can't simply turn them into a ticking clock, because then the only actions Bene Gesserit can take of consequence would be losing ones. Players would take a few losses, learn what not to do, then dominate unless they go against three players who hand the victory to one, just to beat Bene Gesserit. Then you end up with the "Don't play Sniper" syndrome in multiplayer where people won't play with you if you pick that faction. Of course... if it was possible to balance a unitless faction, I would love to see it, just for the quirky nuttiness of it.

However: Controlling the votes of Minor Houses... this makes sense for the Bene Gesserit. It's also a method for Bene Tlielax, CHOAM, and, to a lesser extent, the Spacing Guild (Who technically HAS their own Votes in the Lansraad, unlike the others.) I could also see various Mentat Schools, the Suk Life Doctors, and even House Jongleur (plus a rival tech-based entertainment House) having similar methods of trying to control Minor Houses as the way to control the Lansraad Council Votes.

However, the normal Lansraad Council conditions for victory do not apply for many Non-House Factions. It would be nonsensical for the Bene Gesserit to be elected Governor of Dune and hold that position at this time. (They are, for reference, elected as a Tripartate Governor of Synchrony the Machine Homeworld in the far flung future.... but that's another story for another time. The Sisterhood is very different by then.)

The Bene Gesserit Research Victory would be for the Kwizat Haderach, not for "Shai-Halud" which really is more like a branch or single tile in their overall plan to create a Savior for Humanity that can see through time and ensure survival of the species. Part of this research victory would involve securing bloodlines, part of it would involve primitive superstitions as a method of controlling ignorant masses... curbing mankind's self destructive instincts is also very important. There are probably some other factors here I am forgetting. Each of these parts could be divided up like normal developments and provide smaller benefits along the way... but the end goal probably wouldn't need a fully maxed out tree.. or some research options might not contribute directly to the Kwizat Haderach. The Research Victory is something that happens in the game, but is really more representative of things that the Bene Gesserit did for thousands of years leading UP to the current time.

I really dig your idea for Acolytes slowly advancing to Reverend Mothers. Maybe they need a combination Research/Spy Tab that divides certain tasks up. They would get MORE agents and more quickly, but they would have more things those agents have to occupy..... forming their web of control.

[Outcast]

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

The key problem is most of your time in this game is spent interacting with those military units, moving to objectives, getting rewards, building... taking that ALL out for a faction is crazy.

That was the idea to have you focusing on managing your main base or stronghold instead of focusing on conquest as the other factions do.

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

but every Bene Gesserit Sister is trained in multiple forms of combat. The Reverend Mother's even share genetic Memories that stretch back to The Sorceress Witches of Rossak...

Definitely so and that is why attacking them and emerging victorious is virtually impossible hence why i say they cannot be attacked. An attack on a Bene Geserit stronghold is suicide at best. Their numbers however due to the specialized training do not allow them to gather any military for conquests. Yes one sister is as powerfull as an army but she cannot be split up and sent to different points on the map. Therefore no point in having units. Also their scale is Humanity as you noted so no point in resolving small events on the map. Tough maybe gameplay wise that would be a tad boring so maybe a recon unit of sorts should be brought in additionally to the thopters or maybe upgraded the factions thopters to resolve small events.

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

orcing rival factions to go to war in this game is a very silly thing. Yes, it would be effective on Computer Opponents... but it shouldn't be. It's totally MEANINGLESS for humans if you kill their treaty.

Great point. Didn't think about pvp. But is that a bad thing when you have a saving mechanic for a losing game? You take in a Reverend Mother to make sure no one wins. Then again they are not that game changing as an ally since all they do is help diplomatically. Other players still can wipe you off the map. Tough i will agree more tinkering is needed.

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

It would be nonsensical for the Bene Gesserit to be elected Governor of Dune and hold that position at this time.

Agree entirely. Like i said its not about the sisters being in positions of the council but having a sister in the faction that has the seat AND having a high amount of influence inside the faction. If say Atredies get all the seat and you just now offer them to take in a Mother they can ofcorse refuse (for obvious reasons) but even if they do you still need to wait for your influence with the house to rise.

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

The Bene Gesserit Research Victory would be for the Kwizat Haderach

Paul is already in the game. Young tough but he is still already known as the possible candidate. On the other hand getting the worm off the planet or finding a substitute for the spice was always the second goal of the sisterhood imo. The way you describe is far more interactive tough and would be more fun. Didint notice how you can research win. Will look into that. tnx.

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

I really dig your idea for Acolytes slowly advancing to Reverend Mothers. Maybe they need a combination Research/Spy Tab that divides certain tasks up. They would get MORE agents and more quickly, but they would have more things those agents have to occupy..... forming their web of control.

Oh yest that would make you microm manage so hard. Thanks.

Thank you for taking the time and going trough it all. Rly appreciate it.

[Magni]

This frankly sounds like it'd be boring to play throughout most of a round, with the player having very little to actually do. And it also sounds intensely frustrating as you're entirely at the mercy of RNG for major gameplay elements. AND it'd also be frustrating for other players having to deal with effectively unavoidable cash losses or even loss of control over their Landsraad votes with no real recourse or even way to get back at the BG player.

Yeah, uh, this is not a good set of ideas IMHO.

[omnius]

The Revered Mothers always liked to work behind the scenes advising. Another bad idea, like House Jongleur.

House Moritani would be a better family to include or as another suggested on an earlier thread House Richese who actually ran the spice operations before the Harkonnens.