Where is House Ordos?

[Millennial_KiwiGamer]

House Ordos has been a playable faction in all previous Dune RTS games. Whilst I understand why the movie avoided mentioning them (not sure why) theres no reason why we can't have Ordos in this game if theres going to be Ix? Whom themselves were just a side faction anyway.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Liet's gender is absolutely unimportant for the story. Westwood's fanfic shoehorned in is not.

A female Liet, which was not native to Dune, yet looks like it comes straight from Fremen bloodlines(black native people do make sense on desert planet) and a female fremen Faroula had a daughter, Chani.
Something does not add up here.

Liet is half-Fremen (in the book too), black people exist outside Arrakis in the wider Empire and the Fremen themselves are a mix of different ethnicities to begin with.

[spike2071]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

More importantly, it's very simple for Shiro Games to correct the canonical issue with a cosmetic DLC that makes minor art changes and text changes. It's clear to me that nobody here would care if they changed it back to how it is in the books. They would care even less if it's just sold as an Alternate Art Pack. Investors would be none the wiser that their requests had been circumvented to open a vast revenue stream.

I would argue people who defend the gender changes here would surrender all that if it meant this game had more players. More players, more revenue, more lifespan, more DLC. It's pretty much a win in all directions.

I tell you what, if they did that I'd stop playing this game immediately. Pandering to reactionaries, people who are very much a threat to me and my family I don't look kindly on and that's all this would be.

And I tell you what, this would earn Shiro games a ton of bad press.

I also very, VERY much doubt that this would get a sales boost as the people complaining the loudest about it are trolls and astroturfers who are looking for cheap excuses to push culture war nonsense.

You just argued that Liet's gender "is unimportant for the story."

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Liet's gender is absolutely unimportant for the story.

Why would you be so upset if they gave an option to swap the gender back to male? Kynes' gender is unimportant. I agree with you that male/female Liet doesn't matter, and I have no problem with a female Liet.

But you're just as upset about the thought of them making an option to change it back as those "trolls and astroturfers who are looking...to push culture war nonsense." Sounds like you're all for pushing a culture war, too.

Very funny.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by spike2071:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

I tell you what, if they did that I'd stop playing this game immediately. Pandering to reactionaries, people who are very much a threat to me and my family I don't look kindly on and that's all this would be.

And I tell you what, this would earn Shiro games a ton of bad press.

I also very, VERY much doubt that this would get a sales boost as the people complaining the loudest about it are trolls and astroturfers who are looking for cheap excuses to push culture war nonsense.

You just argued that Liet's gender "is unimportant for the story."

It is. That's why I didn't mind when they changed it.

If they ruddered back now however it would be purely to pander to reactionaries as that's the only people who lost their mind over this and that I won't support in any way shape or form.

[Azrapse]

Originally posted by Katitoff:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Liet's gender is absolutely unimportant for the story. Westwood's fanfic shoehorned in is not.

A female Liet, which was not native to Dune, yet looks like it comes straight from Fremen bloodlines(black native people do make sense on desert planet) and a female fremen Faroula had a daughter, Chani.
Something does not add up here.

This game's Liet is just taken from the recent Dune movies Liet, where she is a black woman.
The imperial Envoy of Change that brings the news from the Emperor to Leto Atreides in Caladan about he becoming the gobernor of Arrakis was also black in that movie. Are you implying that all black people in the Known Universe are of Fremen bloodlines?

Liet, in the new movies and this game, is implied to be an Imperial agent, and is referred to as Envoy of Change by Leto, to oversee the change of power from the Harkonnen to the Atreides. It is not unconceivable that she ended up being the same race as the other imperial dude that brought news to Caladan.

[spike2071]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by spike2071:

You just argued that Liet's gender "is unimportant for the story."

It is. That's why I didn't mind when they changed it.

If they ruddered back now however it would be purely to pander to reactionaries as that's the only people who lost their mind over this and that I won't support in any way shape or form.

People claimed the swap from male to female was to pander to certain groups, which is one reason why they were upset about it. They even claimed not to play the game because of it.

You're arguing the same thing. Despite the fact you've stated the gender has no bearing on the plot/game, you'd be so upset because of an option to swap that you'd stop playing.

The lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

I need a picture of that meme with the 2 Spidermen pointing at each other.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by spike2071:

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

It is. That's why I didn't mind when they changed it.

If they ruddered back now however it would be purely to pander to reactionaries as that's the only people who lost their mind over this and that I won't support in any way shape or form.

People claimed the swap from male to female was to pander to certain groups, which is one reason why they were upset about it. They even claimed not to play the game because of it.

You're arguing the same thing. Despite the fact you've stated the gender has no bearing on the plot/game, you'd be so upset because of an option to swap that you'd stop playing.

The lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

I need a picture of that meme with the 2 Spidermen pointing at each other. :zaglol:

Considering that both the movie and the game changed A LOT more than just Liet's gender and yet that's somehow the only thing you lot complain about and even think it needs to be "fixed" with a DLC it shows that lore purism isn't your motivation.

Them changing the gender in the first place didn't mean anything. They race-swapped various people in the previous adaptions too, that didn't engender any protests.

Them changing it back now would only serve to pander to reactionary culture warriors who don't play this game anyway.

Yes, that's different. No, I don't expect you to admit it.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

I bet if someone said House Ordos was going to be all black women, we could invert who opposes the addition of House Ordos and who demands it.

Because for some reason, people don't care about the game, they care more about what some stranger online thinks about crass political issues.

Try to stay on topic, or take your concerns about Liet Kynes, in either direction, to one of the countless other threads where this exact issue will be immortalized for all potential customers to judge their purchase of the game on.... but only if Liet Kynes was actually something they were concerned about. It doesn't matter who brought it up, because people who responded to it abandoned the topic. Can't we be better than that?

This thread is for people who were curious about House Ordos and need more information on that topic. Regardless of how you feel about House Ordos or how well informed you are about Shiro's intentions for the game... it's a FAIR QUESTION. House Ordos has been in most of the Dune Video games and countless people played them. Much of this game is, for better or worse, inspired by those games that came before it.

There are many House Ordos Fans who need to know these basic things:
-House Ordos as they remember it is not Canon, it's not in the novels, it was reimagined by Westwood to express elements of the Dune Universe that didn't fit into House Atreides or House Harkonnen. This means House Ordos was a excuse not to have MORE major Factions in those previous games.
-E.A. Owns the Rights to the House Ordos as they remember it, and they don't play well with anyone, not even their own customers.
-Shiro Games has never ruled out a newly reimagined House Ordos that is more in line with the information about it from the Dune Encyclopedia and fitting with the Dune Universe.
-Smugglers are basically House Ordos right now... House Vernius of Ix and Bene Tlielax don't get along, so there aren't really any factions that could maintain strong relationships with both. House Richese, however, is slightly less advanced than House Vernius of Ix, and does have a better relationship with Bene Tleilax... but they probably don't flaunt it.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

I bet if someone said House Ordos was going to be all black women, we could invert who opposes the addition of House Ordos and who demands it.

Because for some reason, people don't care about the game, they care more about what some stranger online thinks about crass political issues.

I don't want House Ordos because A: there are better candidates for inclusion and B: it would be pointless as it wouldn't resemble the Westwood version anyway and that's the sole reason people demand its inclusion in the first place.

As for the other issue, in the Lynch movie and the Sci-fi miniseries the Fremen were all race-swapped from multi-ethnic brown-skinned desert dwellers into lily-white caucasians. Nobody complained. But putting lady bits on a side character somehow deserves constant outrage. Yeah, that kind of shows what people we are dealing with here.

[spike2071]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by spike2071:

People claimed the swap from male to female was to pander to certain groups, which is one reason why they were upset about it. They even claimed not to play the game because of it.

You're arguing the same thing. Despite the fact you've stated the gender has no bearing on the plot/game, you'd be so upset because of an option to swap that you'd stop playing.

The lack of self-awareness is hilarious.

I need a picture of that meme with the 2 Spidermen pointing at each other.

Considering that both the movie and the game changed A LOT more than just Liet's gender and yet that's somehow the only thing you lot complain about and even think it needs to be "fixed" with a DLC it shows that lore purism isn't your motivation.

Them changing the gender in the first place didn't mean anything. They race-swapped various people in the previous adaptions too, that didn't engender any protests.

Them changing it back now would only serve to pander to reactionary culture warriors who don't play this game anyway.

Yes, that's different. No, I don't expect you to admit it.

Lol, you'd be just as upset as they are if Shiro swapped her gender back. You can delude yourself however you want, but it's not different.

[FDR'sThinkTank]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

I bet if someone said House Ordos was going to be all black women, we could invert who opposes the addition of House Ordos and who demands it.

Because for some reason, people don't care about the game, they care more about what some stranger online thinks about crass political issues.

I don't want House Ordos because A: there are better candidates for inclusion and B: it would be pointless as it wouldn't resemble the Westwood version anyway and that's the sole reason people demand its inclusion in the first place.

As for the other issue, in the Lynch movie and the Sci-fi miniseries the Fremen were all race-swapped from multi-ethnic brown-skinned desert dwellers into lily-white caucasians. Nobody complained. But putting lady bits on a side character somehow deserves constant outrage. Yeah, that kind of shows what people we are dealing with here.

Frankly, I remember whenever I read a topic about Dune adaptations back in the day it was rife with complaints about how accurate it was to the books. The big difference between back then and now was that the arguments were coming from the standpoint of being a sci-fi Lore dork. There weren't anywhere near as many people who had moral or political outrage. This meant that people could stay on topic and when they wanted to discuss a different topic, they went to the appropriate thread. There are several Armand Ecaz/Liet-Kynes Genderswap threads already. Keeping that discussion there should be pretty simple. People aren't helping anyone curious about the game or the state of House Ordos by derailing this topic.... and there are clearly two factions committed to having this discussion. That's fine. They are ALL very fine people. Just keep it where people can keep track of it, rather than confusing this perennial topic!

I mean... really, people react pretty negatively to anyone bringing up House Ordos... but it does deserve discussion no matter how unlikely it is to go anywhere. I'm pretty sure Shiro has already decided what they will do about House Ordos: this means if they are planning on doing their own take on it, they already have it in the pipe. Nothing anyone says here will change whether or not it will happen... but whether or not people think there are people willing to discuss the idea with them could affect their decision to buy the game. It's not our responsibility to sell the game to other people, but maybe if you like the game you wouldn't go out of your way to be unwelcoming? It's not like you have to play with people you don't like, but those people help grow the community too.

I don't see House Ordos fans as a threat or a nuisance. I see them as an opportunity. Most of them aren't worried about Canonical issues of the gender of minor or obscure characters. They don't know, don't care... and ideally you should want to keep it that way. People being apathetic to your cause is better than them getting involved. Those House Ordos fans only become a problem when they realize they can mine you for Myriad Salt. That goes for both sides of this unrelated argument, because they are giving people who are bored and looking for information about an interest they have two things: a reason to surrender their interest and a reason to participate in drama.

Just ask yourself if you like this game. That's all you need to know to logically agree with me: the Topic of this thread is House Ordos. Even if it won't appear in this game, it's fun to talk about.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by spike2071:

Lol, you'd be just as upset as they are if Shiro swapped her gender back. You can delude yourself however you want, but it's not different.

Yes, I would be upset now because it would be nothing but pandering to reactionary culture warriors. I never said anything different.

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

[
I don't see House Ordos fans as a threat or a nuisance. I see them as an opportunity. Most of them aren't worried about Canonical issues of the gender of minor or obscure characters. They don't know, don't care... and ideally you should want to keep it that way. People being apathetic to your cause is better than them getting involved. Those House Ordos fans only become a problem when they realize they can mine you for Myriad Salt. That goes for both sides of this unrelated argument, because they are giving people who are bored and looking for information about an interest they have two things: a reason to surrender their interest and a reason to participate in drama.

Just ask yourself if you like this game. That's all you need to know to logically agree with me: the Topic of this thread is House Ordos. Even if it won't appear in this game, it's fun to talk about.

"Threat"? Please leave the loaded language at home, pal. I don't see any threat coming because I know Ordos will never be included in one way or another. I'm merely correcting people who spread the misinformation that Ordos was some major player in the lore.

There's no opportunity because what people want is the Westwood version which will never come anyway, so there'd be whining and complaining if Shiro came up with something new because it wouldn't be what they played with in 1992. No point in spending any more thought on them.

[DasaKamov]

Originally posted by OmniWarpLuck:

The big difference between back then and now was that the arguments were coming from the standpoint of being a sci-fi Lore dork. There weren't anywhere near as many people who had moral or political outrage.

Of course, a HUGE part of that was because "sci-fi dorks" back in "the day" were largely comprised of one single monolithic demographic with a shared cultural upbringing.

Fortunately, things are much different now.

[Katitoff]

Originally posted by Azrapse:

Originally posted by Katitoff:

A female Liet, which was not native to Dune, yet looks like it comes straight from Fremen bloodlines(black native people do make sense on desert planet) and a female fremen Faroula had a daughter, Chani.
Something does not add up here.

This game's Liet is just taken from the recent Dune movies Liet, where she is a black woman.
The imperial Envoy of Change that brings the news from the Emperor to Leto Atreides in Caladan about he becoming the gobernor of Arrakis was also black in that movie. Are you implying that all black people in the Known Universe are of Fremen bloodlines?

Liet, in the new movies and this game, is implied to be an Imperial agent, and is referred to as Envoy of Change by Leto, to oversee the change of power from the Harkonnen to the Atreides. It is not unconceivable that she ended up being the same race as the other imperial dude that brought news to Caladan.

Chill there NPC 4513117.
If you're clinging to ethnicity part of my post so hard, you completely ignored the actual problematic part, you know, where 2 women had a baby together.

[spike2071]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by spike2071:

Lol, you'd be just as upset as they are if Shiro swapped her gender back. You can delude yourself however you want, but it's not different.

Yes, I would be upset now because it would be nothing but pandering to reactionary culture warriors. I never said anything different.

And that's the exact reason people claimed they gender swapped Liet in the first place: pandering to certain groups.

Congratulations! You're using the same rationale as the "culture warriors." At least they have the fall back position of "canon." You admit Liet's gender is absolutely unimportant, but still won't even allow it to be an option. "Reactionary culture warriors," indeed.

[Roadwraith]

How is this thread not locked yet...?

4 pages on a topic that's been put to bed for a long time and has now moved on to another forum favourite of Liet's gender...