Sardaukars are weak.

[Rickey_BN]

"The Sardaukar is the elite military force of the Padishah Emperor"

In Dune: Spice Wars, the Sardaukar units are not felt by the elite military force of the Imperium. I haven't seen players prefer the Sardaukar more often than just an army of Conscript Infantry that will be much stronger than the elite military force of the Imperium.

At the same time, the Fedaykins show themselves perfectly. These soldiers are perfectly embodied in the game from a book. The Cerberus also feel like the baron's elite guards and even replace the regular infantry. Atreides Wardens are also good units that make other weak units more protected. Free Company is also a very strong unit that can easily kill toughest enemy and has stealth against ranged units.

Sardaukar are inferior in strength to all elite units in the game. You can't spam them like Harkonnens can spam Cerberus units, as their strength lies in the fact that they must finish off the enemy. But they cannot do this, as they are always the first to be killed. It's just not worth it.
Their power is unique, but very weak. They will definitely not be equal to the rest of the elite troops.

Do the developers plan to buff Sardaukars in any way? I really like House Corrino, but i'm frustrated with the current state of the Sardaukars. (In case if James or someone in Shiro dev team will see that)

[stun]

Publicado originalmente por Rammy:

All i see that people who disagree with me always saying same things like "Just use them with conscripts. Sardaukars are strong and balanced." Well, im always curious how many games in MP they won as House Corrino using Sardaukars.

Nobody is winning any (vaguely balanced) games in multiplayer using corrino fullstop. What's your point? Sardaukar are completely unrelated to the problems with the faction.

[Magni]

Publicado originalmente por Rammy:

As has been said by other people in this discussion, Sardaukars are simply not needed. You can just spam conscripts and they will be stronger especially with Aramsham. Corrino is a conscript + artillery drone spam faction. If you play against other players, you should understand me.
In singleplayer everything can look good, even "very strong ability - Execution" which in a singleplayer can be implemented in contrast to multiplayer

Yeah. That's just wrong. "Not needed" is a fundamentally bad mindset. A couple Sardaukar used properly are a massive force multiplier to a conscript blob, letting it perform far better than a pure conscript force of the same size.

They're a lot like Corrino is general: Hard to use right, but devastating when done so.

[IonizedMercury]

Publicado originalmente por Rammy:

Publicado originalmente por IonizedMercury:

All I read says "Please make them OP so I can just blob them and steamroll any enemy effortlessly".

NO.

Total War Warhammer was ruined by the devs constantly listening to bad takes like this. This game needs to steer clear of casual gamers who just want their power fantasies at the expense of players who'd actually like to play a strategy game worthy of its title.

No, i don't want them to be OP. I want them to be useful in combat. How did you come to decision that me and people in discussion who agrees with me wants Sardaukars to be OP? Have you played MP against Corrino? How many players who used Sardaukar in combat win through domination or simply in combat situacions?

All i see that people who disagree with me always saying same things like "Just use them with conscripts. Sardaukars are strong and balanced." Well, im always curious how many games in MP they won as House Corrino using Sardaukars.

They are useful.

You just want to lower their skill ceiling and dumb the game down.

Rise to the challenge, don't demand the game be dragged down to your level. I have it up here with gamers who think the world needs to adapt to them and not the other way around.

[Rickey_BN]

Publicado originalmente por IonizedMercury:

Publicado originalmente por Rammy:

No, i don't want them to be OP. I want them to be useful in combat. How did you come to decision that me and people in discussion who agrees with me wants Sardaukars to be OP? Have you played MP against Corrino? How many players who used Sardaukar in combat win through domination or simply in combat situacions?

All i see that people who disagree with me always saying same things like "Just use them with conscripts. Sardaukars are strong and balanced." Well, im always curious how many games in MP they won as House Corrino using Sardaukars.

They are useful.

You just want to lower their skill ceiling and dumb the game down.

Rise to the challenge, don't demand the game be dragged down to your level. I have it up here with gamers who think the world needs to adapt to them and not the other way around.

Then prove their usefulness. Prove your point, can you? Because everyone can tell another person with a different point of view that he is wrong. Try to prove me wrong.
Best way is to record a MP game using Sardaukars in combat, trying achieve domination or at least a hegemony victory.

[Blackdragon]

It's a wonder how many things about Dune combat this game gets wrong.

1. No shields
2. No lasguns, and shield vs. lasgun interaction
3. Weak Sardaukar, while Sardaukar should be absolute powerhouses
4. No land vehicles
5. NO ARTILLERY (the Baron famously sieged the Fremen with artillery in the original novel)
6. No Fremen control over Sandworms
7. No attack ornithopters for Atreides (supposedly famous for "air and sea power").

It's like they deliberately excised everything specifically DUNE-related from the game's combat aspect.

And it's not only combat, of course. Many other aspects of the game are not consonant with the DUNE setting.

Take the Spice Melange, for example. It is the LIFEBLOOD OF THE UNIVERSE. Who controls the Spice, controls the Universe. So why is it relegated to the role of a mostly secondary resource in this game? Normally, EVERYTHING on Arrakis should be tied to Spice. As long as you have Spice, you will have EVERYTHING else: money, construction resources, manpower for your armies, authority as a ruler, influence in the Landsraad, EVERYTHING.

You should be able to literally buy every single resource in game, from Plascrete to Influence to Guild Favor with Spice. Instead, Spice has an extemely remote and secondary influence on gameplay, where the real focus is on production of other resources, using mechanics independent, or at best very remotely linked to, gathering Spice.

As a result, the War in "Dune: Spice Wars" is NOT FOR SPICE. It is nearly always for something else. Hell, there's not even a "Spice victory condition", as in who gathers the most Spice wins. The Economic victory is achievable through Solari, the Political victory through Influence jockeying, etc.

The absence of pervasive DUNE Factions, such as Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu and Ix, is also extremely conspicuous.

In short, it doesn't feel like Dune, in spite of all the fluff and paraphernalia. Deep inside, this is not Dune.

[Deep One]

I think the idea is that the Emperor Corinno is supposed to get someone else (the Baron) to do his dirty work and then finally tip the scales and deliver the final blow, quite literally with how the Sardaukar have an execution ability. You know like what happens in the actual story.

I think the ideas are sound how everything works, it's just that some stuff is a bit too subtle.

[IonizedMercury]

Publicado originalmente por Blackdragon:

4. No land vehicles

Only needed to get to this to know you are spouting 100% BS.

And the Baron is not "famous" for using artillery, he used it exactly once to close some caves Atreides troops had sought refuge in and then shipped them back in the museum he found them in.

[Blackdragon]

Publicado originalmente por IonizedMercury:

Publicado originalmente por Blackdragon:

4. No land vehicles

Only needed to get to this to know you are spouting 100% BS.

What the literal ♥♥♥♥, have you even read the books?

https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/List_of_vehicles

Lists huge amount of GROUND vehicles from the DUNE NOVELS. Notably, the Groundcars.

Publicado originalmente por IonizedMercury:

And the Baron is not "famous" for using artillery, he used it exactly once to close some caves Atreides troops had sought refuge in

He FAMOUSLY (as in, well-known to ANY reader of Dune) used GROUND-BASED MOBILE ARTILLERY in the land war against Atreides on Arrakis. This was a very specific plot point in the very first book, which allowed the Harkonnen to turn the tide of the war, and was commented upon by several characters.

And the ONLY reason mobile ARTILLERY (i.e. cannon firing explosive shells) was NOT used more widely in Dune Universe warfare was because it was made obsolete by... SHIELDS. Which this "Dune" game DOES NOT HAVE IN ANY SHAPE OR FORM. Proven by the existence of "ranged units", since only slow attacks penetrate the shield.

So it does not make any sense whatsoever for this game not to have land combat vehicles, and particularly artillery as it was canonically used in the very first novel, as well as not to have Holtzman Shields.

P.S. Oh and by the way, your entire point is obviated by the fact that House Corrino (of all factions!) DOES have an "Artillery Drone", so apparently it IS possible even in the game's universe to have such units, thereby making it doubly inexplicable why other factions (such as the Harkonnen, LOL) don't have access to these units, and why there are no actual ground-based "big guns" as in the original DUNE novel.

[Blackdragon]

Publicado originalmente por Rammy:

Sardaukar will only be strong and powerful if they gonna have a passive ability to be immune to ranged units. You have to deal with them only in melee fight.

They had this immunity in the original novel... via personal shields.

But this game doesn't have shields. Therefore melee troops like Sardaukar make no sense, and would have been decimated by lasguns or traditional firearms.

[Rickey_BN]

Publicado originalmente por Blackdragon:

It's a wonder how many things about Dune combat this game gets wrong.

1. No shields
2. No lasguns, and shield vs. lasgun interaction
3. Weak Sardaukar, while Sardaukar should be absolute powerhouses
4. No land vehicles
5. NO ARTILLERY (the Baron famously sieged the Fremen with artillery in the original novel)
6. No Fremen control over Sandworms
7. No attack ornithopters for Atreides (supposedly famous for "air and sea power").

It's like they deliberately excised everything specifically DUNE-related from the game's combat aspect.

And it's not only combat, of course. Many other aspects of the game are not consonant with the DUNE setting.

Take the Spice Melange, for example. It is the LIFEBLOOD OF THE UNIVERSE. Who controls the Spice, controls the Universe. So why is it relegated to the role of a mostly secondary resource in this game? Normally, EVERYTHING on Arrakis should be tied to Spice. As long as you have Spice, you will have EVERYTHING else: money, construction resources, manpower for your armies, authority as a ruler, influence in the Landsraad, EVERYTHING.

You should be able to literally buy every single resource in game, from Plascrete to Influence to Guild Favor with Spice. Instead, Spice has an extemely remote and secondary influence on gameplay, where the real focus is on production of other resources, using mechanics independent, or at best very remotely linked to, gathering Spice.

As a result, the War in "Dune: Spice Wars" is NOT FOR SPICE. It is nearly always for something else. Hell, there's not even a "Spice victory condition", as in who gathers the most Spice wins. The Economic victory is achievable through Solari, the Political victory through Influence jockeying, etc.

The absence of pervasive DUNE Factions, such as Bene Gesserit, Tleilaxu and Ix, is also extremely conspicuous.

In short, it doesn't feel like Dune, in spite of all the fluff and paraphernalia. Deep inside, this is not Dune.

As one person above said, maybe its just "Early Access" problems and many things gonna be reworked or updated. I want to believe.

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

Im just lollling at the "absense of pervasive Dune factions, no arti, no fremen worm control and no attack ornithopters". Did you guys even tried playing the game?

[Blackdragon]

Publicado originalmente por Rammy:

As one person above said, maybe its just "Early Access" problems and many things gonna be reworked or updated. I want to believe.

Zero chance of that. If the developers never bothered to actually read the novels and did not care to implement the most basic premises of what makes Dune - Dune, they will definitely not be "shamed" or convinced into doing so at this late stage.

As somebody else said, this game is not Dune, it is Northgard dressed up as Dune.

[Blackdragon]

Publicado originalmente por Kōizumi Seishiro:

Im just lollling at the "absense of pervasive Dune factions, no arti, no fremen worm control and no attack ornithopters". Did you guys even tried playing the game?

You're failing to address any of the points being made. How about you actually respond to my posts above, instead of "lolling" insipidly?

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

Ionized Mercury has already addressed your problems. You're making things up and post 100 % BS. Rammy too, while we're at it. I grant that the game may not be up to your guys expectations, but you should examine them first maybe? Its not an RTS, its not a Dune 2 clone , and looks like you simply never played it long enough to get to .... attack ornithopters? )

[Blackdragon]

Publicado originalmente por Kōizumi Seishiro:

Ionized Mercury has already addressed your problems.

No, he didn't. He made a single disparaging remark and never bothered to produce any arguments at all, much like yourself.

Publicado originalmente por Kōizumi Seishiro:

You're making things up and post 100 % BS.

What exactly do I make up? The use of land vehicles on Arrakis in the original novels? That is indisputable fact. The use of heavy mobile ground weapon systems on Arrakis in the original novels? Also indisputable fact, and even a plot point in the very first DUNE book. That the only reason artillery became obsolete was due to the shields, which are not present in this game? Fact. That for some inexplicable reason one faction (and the wrong faction at that) does have mobile artillery but others don't (including the one which had it in the novel)? Again, fact. That without shields melee units don't make any sense, and with shields ranged units don't make sense, and the game craps itself in both of these aspects by having both melee and ranged, but not lasguns and shields? You guessed it, fact.

The fact that this game discards a ton of the most basic premises of the DUNE Universe, in particular those related to combat, to the level it cannot be called DUNE anymore is self-evident and indisputable.

You crying "BS, BS!" does not make it less of a fact obvious to anyone acquainted with the DUNE lore.

Publicado originalmente por Kōizumi Seishiro:

Its not an RTS, its not a Dune 2 clone

Cheap and pathetic strawman. This game not being an RTS or Dune 2 clone is not the issue. This game being completely apposite to the most basic tenets of DUNE is the issue.