Loremasters, Is Dune at that time patriarchal?

[SuicidalCivie]

I'll admit, I'm not super immersed in Dune lore, but I read some on the Bene Gesserit that gave me the impression that women are disenfranchised within the royal society of the noble houses. The Bene Gesserit have a "sisterhood" vibe to them, and the fact that they both freely share their secrets with and expect loyalty from daughters of noble houses implied to me that said daughters won't be given rulership over their houses.
If after all, the noble daughters won't rise to the top of the hierarchy of their houses, their place in the hierarchy of the Bene Gesserit is all the more attractive. On the other hand, if Irulan Corrino truly would become the ruler of the galaxy, there is no way she'll obey her Bene Gesserit Superiors.

Or did I read that completely wrong?
I do know that changes later in the Dune timeline, but that only further convinced me that I got that right. I didn't read in the synopsis that the Fish Speakers or Honored Matres introduced the concept of sex-based discrimination into an egalitarian universe completely foreign to it (even though they ramped it up to eleven).

I can't point to a page where it's openly stated, but I always felt there was implied patriarchy, and that's why I think the Ecaz changes don't rhyme with the overall tone of the universe at that time. You must understand the setting before you can change it, and it feels to me that Shiro can't read between the lines.

Was a Bene Gesserit initiate ever in control of a major noble house outside of being regent for a (male) minor?

[IonizedMercury]

Explaining or debating it with you fascists would be a waste of time as you are just here to push your reactionary agenda and are not interested in actually learning about the Dune universe.

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

Ok now that I have finally stopped laughing. BG is a major faction in Dune universe, they have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of planets with serfs, armed forces with males in command, breeding programs and fleet. So short answer is "no". Also, go and watch Dune TV series, it covers the story of Paul and Chani's children and a heir to house Corrino, who is.. a woman. Totally unexpected, I know.

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Kōizumi Seishiro:

Ok now that I stop laughing. BG are a major faction in Dune universe, they have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of planets with serfs, armed forces with males in command, breeding programs and fleet. So short answer is "no". Also, go and watch Dune TV series, it covers the story of Paul and Chani's children and a heir to house Corrino, who is.. a woman. Totally unexpected, I know.

To add to that, the Bene Gesserit are the only major faction that makes it from the first book all the way to the last and they do not waver in their conviction even when Leto II is breathing down their necks.
In fact, the final fate of the Empire is decided by the war between the two all-female factions of the setting, the BG and the Honored Matres who are a BG+Fishspeaker (another all-female faction) amalgamate.
Paul, the "hero" of the first book? Gets blinded, thrown out into the desert, abused by criminals and is then unceremoniously stabbed to death by the high priest of his own religion at the behest of his crazy sister.
Leto II, the other big male alpha chad of the setting? Turns into a repulsive worm-man, becomes the worst tyrant in human history and ultimately receives a lethal bath by yet another woman, Siona.

For a "patriarchal" universe, there's an awful lot of GRRRL power out there.

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

Not how I perceived Leto II, but pretty much +

[GinsengSamurai]

Originally posted by SuicidalCivie:

Loremasters, Is Dune at that time patriarchal?

Topics like this should be brought to https://www.reddit.com/r/dune/ at Reddit, instead of being posted on the Dune Spice Wars forum, because DSW is about a real time strategy game. It's not about the novels.

[Vorto]

It's just a great game, nothing more needs to be said about it!
It's a shame that it plunges some people into a crisis of meaning.
Please get professional help!
(Your account name gives me something to think about)

[Katitoff]

Fremen are extremely patriarchal.
Others are generally patriarchal.
Bene Gesserit is, from obvious reason, matriarchy.

[Spicy Grasshopper]

So this is a complex question and a complex answer is required.

Are the houses of Dune Patriarchal?
Yes.

Are the Fremen Patriarchal?
Yes.

Is Dune Patriarchal?
No.


Now keep in mind the timeline of Dune including all media from Frank and Brian Herbert is 10's of thousands of years.
And so across that we see why and how certain things became the way they did. We also see evolution taking place. And regression in others.

So when Leto II comes to the Throne after Paul he believes men are arrogant and egotistical which is why he creates the Fish Speaker army and replaces all men as soldiers with women, so men effectively take a break, learn to control themselves, not to get caught up in the politics and wars, and come back stronger.

Now the fish speakers women's military aren't much better than men, its just Leto Believed that they being women and more maternal would also lead to a more peaceful Empire (The Emperors peace). It didn't.

We also see patriarchal Societies like the Bene Tleilax that are a mans world, women don't exist- why not, because they are used as breeding pods to create the gholas, face dancers, etc (The gholas are clones created from dead tissue).

And then we have the counter such as the matriarchal Bene Gesserit who have spent millennia scheming, using their women to secure marriages, alliances, assassinate, start and end wars, all so they can progress their genealogical quest of creating the Kwisatz Haderach.

Then we also see these different cultures conflicting, so for example the Bene G are disgusted by the Bene T's actions and make comments to the affect of "we will not be breeding pods like your women" which shocks the Bene T because this is their culture and way of doing things.
Remember the famous interview of a woman asking the Taliban if there will ever be a woman leader and they laughed in her face- because the comment is entirely bizarre to their culture.

Later on the Honored Matres came to be after the scattering where Bene G sent some of their women to the unexplored space, and due to their interactions they and their fishspeaker associates became the Honored Matres, then due to fighting robots they returned to known space as they were losing, where upon they destroyed everybody including the Bene T, freeing some of the women and taking them into their society.

This in turn leads to a galactic scale war between the Honored Matres and the Bene G that culminates in a woman who is of both bringing them together and peace with her.
The honored Matres use sex and seduction as drugs to enslave men to their whims and this is how they take over entire planets.

It should be noted however the Bene G also kept some of those women in the breeding pods, for their own genealogical research and to create more gholas etc to progress their schemes as well.

So even though they are matriarchal they are not *for* women.
And the Honored Matres who are exclusively women are not *for* women or *for* men.

A further point for clarity would be; So does this mean the two main powers towards the end of Dune are both female dominated factions?
Yes they are.

Then we have other groups such as the Fremen.
They are insanely patriarchal, and the reason likely for this is they live on a hostile planet, And some of the big issues for women in hostile zones (And this is based on my own observations and experience in Africa) is things such as pregnancy, periods, and lack of physical strength. So they end up staying at the hut(s) whilst the men go and do the dangerous stuff, and societies build up around this.

Then you have others such as Erasmus and the other machines (Cymeks etc) that are made of human brains with metal bodies, they don't care one way or the other about sex- as far as they are concerned humans are beneath them.


So in conclusion is Dune patriarchal? No, there are cultures that are and cultures that aren't. And usually whether they are or not has a reason for being so.
If you are being time specific to when SW takes place, then yes its houses and emperor are largely patriarchal with matriarchies such as the Bene G, but even they to a degree serve the emperor.

[SuicidalCivie]

I read more Dune lore, and that sounds right to me. It's basically a lot like Game of Thrones. Starting with european medieval society, and then it becomes women-dominated and magical as time progresses. (The Bene G are powerful at the start, but they act more covertly and exist in society's blind spot because the houses underestimate women.) And this game takes place in the equivalent to GoT season one.

In respect to the Ecaz controversy, the naysayers are in the right. Female Ecaz doesn't reinforce the timeline-appropriate setting, but obscures it. Strategy games without a campaign don't have too many options to tell a story, therefore they should be to the point. Having all four noble houses male-lead would convey something about the setting, would tell the original story. While female Ecaz on the other hand, sanitizes the portrayal of the houses.

Even apart from Ecaz simply being written male.

[Baby Grinch]

For all these people who insist on talking about patriarchy nonsense or whether the book is set in an appropriate timeline. First of all, it's science fiction. In science fiction the future is always explored, not the past. and the second and most important. Frank Herbert gave many interviews talking about Dune and always said that the main theme of his books was blindly following charismatic leaders, and that this was a problem because most of the time they are corrupt or incompetent. and how man's actions can change the environment. Seriously, you think he would have given a damn if a secondary character in his book is different in an adaptation or if a house that has few mentions in the books like the Ecaz house has a woman as its leader. The only thing that would have mattered to him is that the main structure of his story and the themes it deals with are preserved in any adaptation.

[Silvertongued Devil]

I'd say the setting is patriarchal in the sense that the factions within it are quite patriarchal in nature - that is, men are the leaders and women are typically relegated to ceremonial/supporting roles.

There's a notable exception to this in the form of the Bene Gesserit, of course - and this is a hell of an exception. The Bene Gesserit have a pretty large impact on the overall setting despite deliberately placing themselves in a supporting role. They've got incredible genetics, absolutely ridiculous control over their bodies/musculature, and their physical abilities are borderline supernatural. They are literally so impressive that they're essentially a caste unto themselves.

Indeed one of the reasons Fremen go from "Scariest thing on the planet" to "Scariest thing in the galaxy" was because Atreides - budding Bene Gesserit learner thanks to Jessica - quite explicitly taught them Bene Gesserit martial arts and employed Bene Gesserit meditation techniques to practically see the future. He is a product, explicitly, of his mother. His father gave him his ethics, his mother gave him her ability, and together they forged an Emperor.

So yeah. Setting is mostly patriarchal. Story is not really patriarchal, and the matriarchal exceptions are quite impressive.

The Ecaz change is silly but w/e it's at least not a huge impact on the rest of the setting AFAIK. The Liet Kynes not being Fremen is the only thing that bothers me overmuch about the setting changes, outside of them being unnecessary changes in the first place.

[Kōizumi Seishiro]

Oh ♥♥♥♥, so this whole topic is about Ecaz? Probably ppl never read any Dune books at all, otherwise... if Ecaz shouldn't be led by female, then what about Corrino?

[Machiavelli]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Explaining or debating it with you fascists would be a waste of time as you are just here to push your reactionary agenda and are not interested in actually learning about the Dune universe.

Not everyone who disagrees with you is a fascist.

[real_shrike]

I would say there is a certain tendency towards patriarchy, but in a feudal system of dynasties women can indeed come to power (Cleopatra, Catherine the Great etc.).

Therefore a female head of a great House is probably a possibility.

And as it has been mentioned, there are the Bene Gesserit and later the Honored Matres.

I am not sure if a female Padischah Emperor would be possible.

Isn't it mentioned that Paul could ascend to the throne also because Shaddam IV. had only daughters and therefore no male heir?

Also, would the Fremen accept a female Naib?
Maybe if she could kill everyone complaining about that...
But Stilgar said something that made it appear rather uncommon.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Originally posted by Kōizumi Seishiro:

Oh ♥♥♥♥, so this whole topic is about Ecaz? Probably ppl never read any Dune books at all, otherwise... if Ecaz shouldn't be led by female, then what about Corrino?

Personally, I don't mind Ecaz being lead by a woman. The Emperor would be a bit odd - that said what would be both viable and entirely appropriate within the canon is Esmar Tuek being a woman. Many depictions of him are of an older man, wizened and weathered by the sand. Personally I think it'd go well with an Asian aesthetic. Old Asian woman leading smugglers across Dune. No question about her sex as it's irrelevant to everything else in the setting (at least, from what I recall) and age and ethnicity are similarly irrelevant as Tuek's whole shtick is being an awesome spymaster and manipulator.

Basically you could fit all the diversity into that character and really shift the lineup aesthetically.

Then again, I also wanted Liet to be an Arab man, so maybe that's just me.

Honestly with those three and Ecaz being lead by a black woman I think it'd really shift the overall lineup in the way that Shiro had publicly stated that they were aiming for in a much more effective way than what they've currently got.

We'd have the three white men squabbling, being colonialist. The Arabian Fremen rebelling against them. The disparate-ethnicity Smugglers lead by an Asian woman just making a quick buck amidst them. The African (ish?) Ecaz coming in with pomp and art to really dig in the colonialism. I dunno, it just feels like a better line up.


To address your statement, however, I don't think this is about Ecaz specifically - I think it's about other dialogue within threads discussing Liet more specifically lead to statements about Dune being a patriarchal setting so this person is essentially just canvassing the community to see what they believe. Personally I lean towards the factions within Dune being patriarchal AF as huge portions of it were heavily inspired by, well, patriarchal organisations, presumably being tremendous ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ in the middle east and Africa during/after WW2.