Dune: Spice Wars

Dune: Spice Wars

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Gabriel 6 SEP 2023 a las 10:27
Story Campaign Missing
Conquest is cool so is the multiplayer/single player modes. We still need a full story driven campaign with cut scenes and appropriate story playing all different houses at different points in the story. Looking forward to playable heroes at least.
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Mostrando 16-30 de 51 comentarios
Kōizumi Seishiro 9 SEP 2023 a las 14:42 
Truth is for cutscenes we basically need what? Intro (noble houses arriving on Arrakis, some Fremen ambushing harvesters, some smugglers smuggling spice) and some cutscenes when Arrakkin / Sietch Tuek/ Tabr or Carthag get destroyed... well, guess what.You can watch this favourite part of any Dune movie / series out there. Maybe this is the reasoning behind developers' decisions as well. Who knows. After all , cutscenes must be super-generic (like Medieval 2 or Shogun 2).

P.s. plus what IonizedMercury said
Última edición por Kōizumi Seishiro; 9 SEP 2023 a las 14:43
spike2071 9 SEP 2023 a las 15:00 
Publicado originalmente por Kapra:
Publicado originalmente por spike2071:

Paul's arc doesn't seem conducive to a 4X game. He doesn't conquer his way into Arrakis. He doesn't conquer his way into the Fremen. The only battle that is played out is when they overtake Arrakeen. They could model the jihad that comes later, but that takes place on other planets. I guess I'm just curious as to what set of story-based missions would make sense given the strict narrative of the books and their lack of actual battles/confrontations.

Shouldn't stop the developers from being able to give us story missions or a campaign based around that. Paul was a nobody when he joined the Fremen. He then ended up as a religious / spiritual leader, because he led the Fremen into open attacks and revolts to the Harkonnens. Paul fought for the Freman for 2 years, 2 years until the battle of Arrakeen. That's a lot of time and can have any number of conflicts, or developments to happen from both a game and lore wise.

You can't simply point to 1 battle shown in the films or the books and go "That's the only fight that happened", when even the books and films say that the Desert War went on for years, and drove spice production to an entire halt. Why do you think the Emperor showed up on Dune? He wasn't there to congratulate the Harkonnens or make the planet his new capital, he was there because there was no Spice and blamed the Harkonnens personally, there to take charge, something Paul wanted to happen to force the Emperor to abdicate.

I disagree with Paul being a nobody when he joined. He was already highlighted as a VIP and the Fremen were actively searching for him. He also killed Jamis and was so dominant in the fight the other Fremen thought he was toying with him. If I recall, after that fight there was already talk of him challenging Stilgar (might be misremembering).

I'd also disagree with your perspective on the Desert War. I know they gloss over it in the book, so you very well could be correct. But my reading was that it was nothing more than guerrilla tactics filled with skirmishes against any spice collectors. No towns were taken, no pitched battles, no buildup of forces to drive deep into enemy territory, etc. In other words, not something easily translated to a 4X game unless you drop the first 3 X's.

I also think the Conquest mode does an adequate job of giving a campaign. There is room for improvement (and balance). It's not story-based, but it does let you build up and specialize your faction over time.

But again, I've already said that they've gone so far off script of what's in the book that they could do whatever. That includes making the Desert War a story based campaign where Paul wages war against the Smugglers and Harkonnens before finally killing the Emperor in the final battle. I guess they'd have to remove femLiet as the leader of the Fremen, and replace her with Paul. That would piss off a lot of people. :P

Edit: Or replace femLiet with femPaula.
Última edición por spike2071; 9 SEP 2023 a las 15:04
Kōizumi Seishiro 9 SEP 2023 a las 16:34 
That is actually wrong assumption, b/c the game apparently kicks off after Atreides land on Arrakis, not after Harkonen destroy House Atreides forces on Arrakis. See the green banner and duke Leto on the screen? I.e. Paul never gets his chance to run away from royal palace and assume leadership role anywhere. So Fremen will have to somehow manage w/o him. )

P.S. That said, nothing prevents developers from adding him as a hero to one faction or another. or both
Última edición por Kōizumi Seishiro; 9 SEP 2023 a las 16:35
spike2071 9 SEP 2023 a las 17:20 
Publicado originalmente por Kōizumi Seishiro:
That is actually wrong assumption, b/c the game apparently kicks off after Atreides land on Arrakis, not after Harkonen destroy House Atreides forces on Arrakis. See the green banner and duke Leto on the screen? I.e. Paul never gets his chance to run away from royal palace and assume leadership role anywhere. So Fremen will have to somehow manage w/o him. )

P.S. That said, nothing prevents developers from adding him as a hero to one faction or another. or both

Or they could...I don't know...place the story-based campaign later and just don't use the Atreides banner/faction. I'm sure it would take years to figure out how to not use a banner, but these are smart people and can figure something out.
Nurrai 10 SEP 2023 a las 7:41 
Publicado originalmente por spike2071:
I disagree with Paul being a nobody when he joined. He was already highlighted as a VIP and the Fremen were actively searching for him. He also killed Jamis and was so dominant in the fight the other Fremen thought he was toying with him. If I recall, after that fight there was already talk of him challenging Stilgar (might be misremembering).

If we're going off the Books, the very first film, the mini series, Paul was indeed a nobody to the Fremen. None of the Fremen knew about him, knew what his goals were, knew that he was a Duke's son, all they knew was that he and his mother were in the desert and seemed ample pickings for more water (Their blood). They only proved themselves to the Fremen by disarming trained warriors with nothing but their hands, to which Stilgar took them in.

The challenge was another Fremen that Paul had disarmed. Wanting to regain honor, challenged Paul to the death and lost, so Paul took his place.

If we're going off the new film, then the Fremen, at least Stilgar and some leaders are only briefly aware of who Paul is. And the challenge was more of just "We can't take him in" kinda vibe.

The talk of Paul challenging Stilgar, was after Paul proved himself a Freman (After the 2 years of fighting) by riding a sandworm, and people who followed / believed in Paul thought he might challenge Stilgar to control the tribe and lead them to war, but both didn't do it (Paul called himself a Duke to side-step it).

Publicado originalmente por spike2071:
I'd also disagree with your perspective on the Desert War. I know they gloss over it in the book, so you very well could be correct. But my reading was that it was nothing more than guerrilla tactics filled with skirmishes against any spice collectors. No towns were taken, no pitched battles, no buildup of forces to drive deep into enemy territory, etc. In other words, not something easily translated to a 4X game unless you drop the first 3 X's.

I also think the Conquest mode does an adequate job of giving a campaign. There is room for improvement (and balance). It's not story-based, but it does let you build up and specialize your faction over time.

While somewhat true, there were two wars going on at the same time. The War of Assassins, which was more or less skirmishes or infiltrators doing their thing. Such as while on Dune, Leto sent Thufir Hawat to raid Giedi Prime and destroy secret spice hoards. Both for a morale boost and to make the Harkonnens think twice about fighting the Atreides since they now control the spice.

Which ended with Atreides falling and kicking off the Desert War, but again, this is a minor issue as its 2 years. Its not like Paul just sat on his hands doing nothing, he was leading revolts in areas, destroying spice harvesters, refine plants, spice hoards, targetting Harkonnens or those who do dealings with the Harkonnens, while also uniting the other Fremen tribes to stand with him while the Harkonnens were hunting down Fremen cave networks, spies, and whatever else. Can work entirely like older games such as C&C, the original dune games, or Warcraft. Some missions you need to deal with force build up, resources, while others can be more unit selected or hero focused.


I can get why they've gone for the approach they have, with the same map, same form of campaign with 3 houses (4 with that new one, no idea why they simply made the Fremen / Smugglers a secondary barely existing faction) out for simplicity but, it doesn't seem to open up a lot of Story, nor focus on any of the characters from the book, the films, what they are trying to accomplish or do. Nor does it work gameplay wise... they want you to paint the over-all map your color (The one showing all the factions and what areas you control), but in actual fighting, you're limited by a 500 cap authority so you can't paint the in-game map your color, or even reach the enemy bases half the time (Especially as Corrino). Wishful thinking on my part, but 4 campaigns surrounding key characters from the book would be a lot better. Paul for Atreides, Feyd-Rautha for Harkonnen, Shaddam or Irulan for Corrino, and Stilgar or Chani for Freman.
spike2071 10 SEP 2023 a las 8:49 
Publicado originalmente por Kapra:
If we're going off the Books, the very first film, the mini series, Paul was indeed a nobody to the Fremen. None of the Fremen knew about him, knew what his goals were, knew that he was a Duke's son, all they knew was that he and his mother were in the desert and seemed ample pickings for more water (Their blood). They only proved themselves to the Fremen by disarming trained warriors with nothing but their hands, to which Stilgar took them in.

The challenge was another Fremen that Paul had disarmed. Wanting to regain honor, challenged Paul to the death and lost, so Paul took his place.

If we're going off the new film, then the Fremen, at least Stilgar and some leaders are only briefly aware of who Paul is. And the challenge was more of just "We can't take him in" kinda vibe.

The talk of Paul challenging Stilgar, was after Paul proved himself a Freman (After the 2 years of fighting) by riding a sandworm, and people who followed / believed in Paul thought he might challenge Stilgar to control the tribe and lead them to war, but both didn't do it (Paul called himself a Duke to side-step it).

In the books, Liet sends a message to the Fremen to be on the lookout for Paul because he might be their Mahdi (Messiah). I'm not sure you can get to be much more important than that. Once he learns of their identity ("This is the Duke's son, certainly the one Liet told us to seek."), Stilgar states he will let Paul live because he's important (according to Liet), but Jessica has to die. Paul is certainly not a nobody.

After the fight with Jamis, Stilgar states to Paul: "When the time comes for you to call me out and try for my burda, do not think you will play with me the way you played with Jamis." Stilgar is already anticipating a fight for leadership. At least I assume that's what he's talking about; unless he's scared Paul will kill him for some meaningless scrap of clothing. :)
Última edición por spike2071; 10 SEP 2023 a las 8:51
Connatic 10 SEP 2023 a las 22:51 
Publicado originalmente por Edward Cullen:
Publicado originalmente por cswiger:
Any Dune game has plenty of source material to draw from, but it is up to Shiro to use that background effectively. Note that this game is a hybrid of 4X and RTS, and RTS games have had some very strong stories. (Command and Conquer, Homeworld, Starcraft, etc...)

4X games are usually more open-ended and player-driver rather than running on the rails of a predetermined story, but Amplitude does story well in their Endless Space series. Stellaris isn't as tightly bound to storybuilding, but there's plenty of background, archeological missions, and the Horizon Signal questline....
Dune 2000, Emperor's Dune, Dune, Dune 2, so many good dune games in the early 2000s had epic stories don't believe look up cute scenes on YouTube

Yes, those campy cutscenes back then were fun, but hardly necessary for this type of game.

Shiro has said Conquest will be the main single player mode serving has the campaign.
Kozzy 14 SEP 2023 a las 9:10 
What a shame, love this games gameplay but they promised a campaign and we didn't get a campaign. Conquest is NOT a campaign, there are ZERO cutscenes are story stuff.
IonizedMercury 14 SEP 2023 a las 9:12 
Publicado originalmente por Kozzy - Exploring Starfield:
What a shame, love this games gameplay but they promised a campaign and we didn't get a campaign. Conquest is NOT a campaign, there are ZERO cutscenes are story stuff.
None of that matters.

4X game.

YOU write the story.
Dead inside 14 SEP 2023 a las 9:18 
Yeah, you make the story in this game, Dune : Spice girls, starring Paula Atreides, Duncana Idaho, Baroness Vladimira.....:steamhappy:
Kozzy 14 SEP 2023 a las 9:19 
Publicado originalmente por IonizedMercury:
Publicado originalmente por Kozzy - Exploring Starfield:
What a shame, love this games gameplay but they promised a campaign and we didn't get a campaign. Conquest is NOT a campaign, there are ZERO cutscenes are story stuff.
None of that matters.

4X game.

YOU write the story.
It does matter, when you MAKE A PROMISE, YOU SHOULD KEEP IT.
I will never buy a game from these devs again. They mentioned during Early Access that there would be a campaign with a story, there is none there today when 1.0 released. They lied, stop making excuses for them.
JayTwoPointOh [Shiro] 14 SEP 2023 a las 9:21 
Publicado originalmente por Kozzy - Exploring Starfield:
Publicado originalmente por IonizedMercury:
None of that matters.

4X game.

YOU write the story.
It does matter, when you MAKE A PROMISE, YOU SHOULD KEEP IT.
I will never buy a game from these devs again. They mentioned during Early Access that there would be a campaign with a story, there is none there today when 1.0 released. They lied, stop making excuses for them.

Hey Kozzy,

We've never promised or advertised a story mode, at any point during the games development. We've alluded to and advertised a campaign over the course of the games Early Access development, which we brought to the game with the Conquest Update which introduced the Conquest Campaign, which is a replayable campaign mode which provides a different experience with every run.

I'm sorry if you have misunderstood any of our communications, but a Story Mode has never been in our plans or roadmap, wheras the game does feature a progression based, lengthy campaign in Conquest.

James
dr_zampolit 14 SEP 2023 a las 9:42 
That's an interesting spin on making smoke and mirrors.
Dr. Venkman 14 SEP 2023 a las 10:02 
Publicado originalmente por JayTwoPointOh Shiro:
Publicado originalmente por Kozzy - Exploring Starfield:
It does matter, when you MAKE A PROMISE, YOU SHOULD KEEP IT.
I will never buy a game from these devs again. They mentioned during Early Access that there would be a campaign with a story, there is none there today when 1.0 released. They lied, stop making excuses for them.

Hey Kozzy,

We've never promised or advertised a story mode, at any point during the games development. We've alluded to and advertised a campaign over the course of the games Early Access development, which we brought to the game with the Conquest Update which introduced the Conquest Campaign, which is a replayable campaign mode which provides a different experience with every run.

I'm sorry if you have misunderstood any of our communications, but a Story Mode has never been in our plans or roadmap, wheras the game does feature a progression based, lengthy campaign in Conquest.

James

That's just a shame. I only bought it from EA because a campaign was advertised. The Conquest mode as a campaign replacement is a slap in the face and an absolute cheek. I can't even return the game.
Connatic 14 SEP 2023 a las 10:04 
Publicado originalmente por Shimaaji:
Thank god I found this thread!
I was about to buy this because I was really looking forward to a story campaign.

(I might still buy it eventually, because it looks like a good game overall, despite some flaws and despite using source material that is not up to the high standards of the early books by the original author. But not for now I guess.)

Publicado originalmente por dr_zampolit:
That's an interesting spin on making smoke and mirrors.

I don't know why people are people are so intent on inventing drama, especially with early access.

Conquest creates a good single player experience in the form of a campaign. Just because it's not narrative heavy, it doesn't mean it doesn't count. Plus it has the added bonus of some random/procedural elements, so it's a little different every time.

Besides, it's already clear this game doesn't retell the story from the novels, and is basically an alternative universe. If they did make a story centric campaign, people would just put on there nerd hats and pick it apart. Even more drama with minimal benefits.
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Publicado el: 6 SEP 2023 a las 10:27
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