I loved Frank Herbert's original Dune so much

[Kamamura]

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

[JayTwoPointOh [Shiro]]

Hey kamamura,

Nothing "woke" about it, this is just an alternate reimagining of the Dune universe and its characters. We've been clear since the start that the game is inpired by not only the books, but also the wider Dune universe as a whole (games, board games, movies, prequels, etc...) and the changes we've made reflect that.

There's no point looking for a deeper meaning than "because that's the way we wanted things to be in our game", because there's nothing more to our decisions than that.

Funcom, Legendary, The Herbert Estate and the wide majority of our players are very happy with the game and our direction, so don't let some incorrect assumptions about motives get in the way of something you might enjoy if you're a fan of the world.

Would love to hear your thoughts if you get around to playing it!

James

[spike2071]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Kamamura:

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

Does anything change if Liet is a woman? The speech is the same. The actions are the same.

Why are you so upset about gender swapping a minor character who had no real relevance to the plot? Out of fear?Anyone could have droned on and on about ecology.

There is also the idea that the game seems to be a tie-in with the movies: the font of "Dune," Liet being a woman, the bald Baron Harkonnen, being released a few months after the movie, etc.

Shiro has several other original games, so your barb about originality is unfounded.

[Seleos]

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's "bad". As pointed out, changing Kynes's gender feels practically irrelevant (save for Kynes's relationship with Chani. I was more interested in understanding that ramification as opposed to the change in gender).

The most recent movie is the most faithful adaption, IMHO. It hit me in a deep, powerful way that no prior adaption has done.

The game here has obvious, necessary deviations from lore. By its very nature, it cannot be that accurate. The game still feels very Dune and is quite enjoyable.

[Robineus]

I think they should add a new unit for all factions: Introducing the Saltysandthopter, you can attach it to enemy harvesters and they lose 25% efficiency as they're always trying to fix problems which don't exist to appease this annoying drone.

[IonizedMercury]

If you want to complain about major changes from book to movie, changing Liet into a woman is a complete nothing-burger compared to the Emperor allowing a high-ranking Harkonnen agent to visit Salusa Secundus and confirm that it's the source of the Sardaukar.

In the book, this was a big secret and the Emperor ordered the extermination of House Atreides in part because they were getting close to figuring this secret out, albeit indirectly. If any house got the idea that "harsh-envirinment = breeding ground for super soldiers", House Corrino would lose the one advantage that elevated it over the other houses.

That you don't even mention this is for me near 99% evidence that you haven't actually read the book and just want to give your reactionary posting some fake legitimacy.

Also, Liet was never one of the most memorable characters of the setting. He disappears one third into the first book and is then pretty irrelevant for the rest of it and practically the entire series, unlike characters like Duncan Idaho, who keeps popping up even thousands of years later and has major effects on the story in all of the books.

[Attackmack]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Kamamura:

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

"most memorable characters" is such a hyperbole. Maybe for you but not for most, trust me most people come from reading Dune and hardly remember the character.
And changing the gender doesnt matter even the slightest since the character, personality and position in to the story stays true to the original.

This is a non-issue, this hyperbolic anti-woke rot that is festering everywhere is as damaging to everything as wokeness itself.

If you want to see what it really means to destroy something with "wokeness" take a gander at AppleTVs "Foundation"...And let me be clear that it is a complete travesty even if you disregard all the woke crap it shoves at you, but it doesnt make it any better XD

[mordante]

The irony of bringing right wing culture wars to raise the corpse of Frank Herbert is that the geezer would almost certainly be reviled by the right wing if he was alive today. He'd almost certainly have been saying some big "I told you so's" about the rise of Populist demagogues in recent politics across UK, US, and Europe.

And of course for people that have read all the novels - the concept that the guy who wrote so many all female societies Bene Gesserit, fish speakers, honoured matres etc - could somehow we worried about the gender swapping of his ecologist dude is laughable.

Herbert was an amazing writer with some truly brilliant and challenging ideas - such people really wouldn't be sullying themselves with the tawdry nonsense of confected "anti woke" outrage because people are interpreting his source material with creative license.

One of my favour stories about the guy was how much he really dug the David Lynch version at the time the critics (and uber book fans) were panning it as diverging too far from the source material - commenting that all an author really needs is for their story to exist in the screen version and Lynch's definitely pulled it off.

[Mick Savage]

Opprinnelig skrevet av mordante:

The irony of bringing right wing culture wars to raise the corpse of Frank Herbert is that the geezer would almost certainly be reviled by the right wing if he was alive today. He'd almost certainly have been saying some big "I told you so's" about the rise of Populist demagogues in recent politics across UK, US, and Europe.

And of course for people that have read all the novels - the concept that the guy who wrote so many all female societies Bene Gesserit, fish speakers, honoured matres etc - could somehow we worried about the gender swapping of his ecologist dude is laughable.

Herbert was an amazing writer with some truly brilliant and challenging ideas - such people really wouldn't be sullying themselves with the tawdry nonsense of confected "anti woke" outrage because people are interpreting his source material with creative license.

One of my favour stories about the guy was how much he really dug the David Lynch version at the time the critics (and uber book fans) were panning it as diverging too far from the source material - commenting that all an author really needs is for their story to exist in the screen version and Lynch's definitely pulled it off.

It's so much deeper than that lol

Instead of creating something original that speaks to left wingers they seem hell bent on changing everything right wingers like, while moderates like me are stuck in the middle wondering where all the hostility came from.

For example gays/trans want to be represented in video games, that's great they absolutely should, but now there's no more representation for male/female. It's now a choice of body types with NO reference to male or female, and you guys still wonder why right wingers get pissed.

The left can't seem to do anything for themselves without vilifying the right or taking away their representation. That's how I see it anyway.

[Seleos]

Opprinnelig skrevet av IonizedMercury:

In the book, this was a big secret and the Emperor ordered the extermination of House Atreides in part because they were getting close to figuring this secret out, albeit indirectly. If any house got the idea that "harsh-envirinment = breeding ground for super soldiers", House Corrino would lose the one advantage that elevated it over the other houses.

I don't recall them being close to figuring out his secret. I recall them getting to a point where they were training their own troops to be nearly as good as the Sardaukar. Duke Leto was also becoming very popular in the Landsraad, and this was perhaps the biggest reason. In the book, Baron Harkonnen stumbles upon the secret, but as you point out, they are not invited to have their Mentat tour Salusa Secundus.

[IonizedMercury]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Seleos:

Opprinnelig skrevet av IonizedMercury:

In the book, this was a big secret and the Emperor ordered the extermination of House Atreides in part because they were getting close to figuring this secret out, albeit indirectly. If any house got the idea that "harsh-envirinment = breeding ground for super soldiers", House Corrino would lose the one advantage that elevated it over the other houses.

I don't recall them being close to figuring out his secret. I recall them getting to a point where they were training their own troops to be nearly as good as the Sardaukar. Duke Leto was also becoming very popular in the Landsraad, and this was perhaps the biggest reason. In the book, Baron Harkonnen stumbles upon the secret, but as you point out, they are not invited to have their Mentat tour Salusa Secundus.

No. The Baron notes that while Leto might appear outwardly popular, that popularity has also bred envy. That's why the Atreides have ultimately no one to turn for help as the emperor had previously already gotten rid of their one true ally, House Ginaz, in a similar manner, by empowering their rivals, the Moritani.
Training troops that might theoretically be able to stand up to the Sardaukar, who at this point had lost a lot of their bite thanks to decades of decadence, was what doomed them.

[Silvertongued Devil]

Opprinnelig skrevet av JayTwoPointOh Shiro:

Hey kamamura,
There's no point looking for a deeper meaning than "because that's the way we wanted things to be in our game", because there's nothing more to our decisions than that
James

I appreciate that you guys don't really want to explain the design choice but I think this is a bit disingenuous. There's a reason for everything we do and simply saying "just because" only indicates a desire to conceal the actual reason. That said, I've seen official statements from Shiro Games that suggest the intent was to have a more diverse cast - more women in leadership positions - which does fit the "woke" angle he's accusing you of. FWIW I don't think that's inherently bad, but it's a bit irksome to see Devs be dismissive of criticism while trying to hide it.

What frustrates me, though, is that your execution of Liet is so sloppy. The art is fine, of course, but your inspiration drawn from the movie created a distinct continuity problem that you guys have never addressed. Namely: Chani in no way resembles her mother.

My suggestion: Make Liet Fremen (aka Arabian phenotype) - Liet was already half-Fremen to begin with (while Chani is 3/4ths) so it makes perfect sense and improves the diversity of the cast of leaders. You could also hypothetically change Chani but this in turn would impact possible future characters as Paul and Chani's children, rather important figures, become relevant.

I feel like this would be a direction you could take that is both in line with your ideals, fixes the biggest problem with the Liet change (aka the only thing that it seriously impacts) in terms of internal consistency, and ultimately makes her a more fitting leader for the faction she represents. We literally have Fremen without a Fremen leader.

Ultimately that's the only real issue, IMO. Not the change itself, but the change not taking into consideration that it is not purely aesthetic; that it does impact other parts of the setting. It's not a vision of a different setting so much as it's a whim that, while perfectly acceptable to follow, didn't take into account the setting you're creating and how it fits into it.

PS You could also make Tuek a grizzled old Asian man if you wanted to further increase diversity. That might be fun.

[IonizedMercury]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Silvertongued Devil:

Opprinnelig skrevet av JayTwoPointOh Shiro:

Hey kamamura,
There's no point looking for a deeper meaning than "because that's the way we wanted things to be in our game", because there's nothing more to our decisions than that
James

I appreciate that you guys don't really want to explain the design choice but I think this is a bit disingenuous. There's a reason for everything we do and simply saying "just because" only indicates a desire to conceal the actual reason. That said, I've seen official statements from Shiro Games that suggest the intent was to have a more diverse cast - more women in leadership positions - which does fit the "woke" angle he's accusing you of. FWIW I don't think that's inherently bad, but it's a bit irksome to see Devs be dismissive of criticism while trying to hide it.

What frustrates me, though, is that your execution of Liet is so sloppy. The art is fine, of course, but your inspiration drawn from the movie created a distinct continuity problem that you guys have never addressed. Namely: Chani in no way resembles her mother.

My suggestion: Make Liet Fremen (aka Arabian phenotype) - Liet was already half-Fremen to begin with (while Chani is 3/4ths) so it makes perfect sense and improves the diversity of the cast of leaders. You could also hypothetically change Chani but this in turn would impact possible future characters as Paul and Chani's children, rather important figures, become relevant.

I feel like this would be a direction you could take that is both in line with your ideals, fixes the biggest problem with the Liet change (aka the only thing that it seriously impacts) in terms of internal consistency, and ultimately makes her a more fitting leader for the faction she represents. We literally have Fremen without a Fremen leader.

Ultimately that's the only real issue, IMO. Not the change itself, but the change not taking into consideration that it is not purely aesthetic; that it does impact other parts of the setting. It's not a vision of a different setting so much as it's a whim that, while perfectly acceptable to follow, didn't take into account the setting you're creating and how it fits into it.

PS You could also make Tuek a grizzled old Asian man if you wanted to further increase diversity. That might be fun.

Missing : reason why anyone who isn't a reactionary should care about any of this

[Mick Savage]

Opprinnelig skrevet av IonizedMercury:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Silvertongued Devil:

I appreciate that you guys don't really want to explain the design choice but I think this is a bit disingenuous. There's a reason for everything we do and simply saying "just because" only indicates a desire to conceal the actual reason. That said, I've seen official statements from Shiro Games that suggest the intent was to have a more diverse cast - more women in leadership positions - which does fit the "woke" angle he's accusing you of. FWIW I don't think that's inherently bad, but it's a bit irksome to see Devs be dismissive of criticism while trying to hide it.

What frustrates me, though, is that your execution of Liet is so sloppy. The art is fine, of course, but your inspiration drawn from the movie created a distinct continuity problem that you guys have never addressed. Namely: Chani in no way resembles her mother.

My suggestion: Make Liet Fremen (aka Arabian phenotype) - Liet was already half-Fremen to begin with (while Chani is 3/4ths) so it makes perfect sense and improves the diversity of the cast of leaders. You could also hypothetically change Chani but this in turn would impact possible future characters as Paul and Chani's children, rather important figures, become relevant.

I feel like this would be a direction you could take that is both in line with your ideals, fixes the biggest problem with the Liet change (aka the only thing that it seriously impacts) in terms of internal consistency, and ultimately makes her a more fitting leader for the faction she represents. We literally have Fremen without a Fremen leader.

Ultimately that's the only real issue, IMO. Not the change itself, but the change not taking into consideration that it is not purely aesthetic; that it does impact other parts of the setting. It's not a vision of a different setting so much as it's a whim that, while perfectly acceptable to follow, didn't take into account the setting you're creating and how it fits into it.

PS You could also make Tuek a grizzled old Asian man if you wanted to further increase diversity. That might be fun.

Missing : reason why anyone who isn't a reactionary should care about any of this

Oh the reasons were given, very clear and precise.

[Cone]

Woman, in a video game? This woke mind-virus is getting out of hand.

[IonizedMercury]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Mick Salvage:

Opprinnelig skrevet av IonizedMercury:

Missing : reason why anyone who isn't a reactionary should care about any of this

Oh the reasons were given, very clear and precise.

Nope.

You gave exactly zero reason why any of your blather matters.