I loved Frank Herbert's original Dune so much

[Kamamura]

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

[GinsengSamurai]

Messaggio originale di HenloPeeps:

Unironically yes more sexism and racism in Dune would be good. If you read the books you would realise these complex themes run all throughout.

I agree with you about the original Dune books with complex issues, questioning moral/immoral/grey areas, etc. However, Frank Herbert was a creative writer who challenged those notions coinciding his era of life and society. Frank Herbert was a liberal Republican who believed in science and challenged conservative views of women. If truly the anti-woke crowd hate Shiro's fanfic version of Dune so much, then they would truly be up in arms about Dune itself, because powerful women exist. Power women in leadership roles exists. There was representation in the Dune books. That's the literal definition of woke. So it's hilarious that the anti-woke crowd here are foaming at their mouths at a black Liet Kynes faking the whole "I love Frank Herbert's original Dune", but completely ignore that Dune was considered woke in 1965.

Regardless, ultimately, the people who started these anti-DSW threads are raging on a 4X strategy game because they cannot accept Shiro's fanfic version of Dune. Those people are somehow invested in the idea that Dune Spice Wars *IS* absolutely a Frank Herbert Dune novel, thus changing any aspect is blasphemous.

It's quite pathetic really. They're raging on a game based in the Dune universe using its own fanfic adaptation.

Shiro didn't rewrite original source material and called it Dune. They made a 4X strategy game based in the Dune universe using fanfic as the base of their game, like 100% of all Dune games ever made.

[Spicy Grasshopper]

Messaggio originale di GinsengSamurai:

SNIP

No this is the problem is the insertion of narratives.
I dont believe his real world politics had much of a say on his creative writings.
And no he didnt challenge conservative views.

This is the issue- you are doing what you are accusing and looking at the whole Dune universe through a 2D lens.

The reality is the Dune universe is a true multi cultural universe, and we see different cultures playing out based on their location, their resources, their placement within the grand universe, etc.

So just as the Bene T were using women as breeding pods and the Bene G didnt like that, we know that later on the Bene G who freed the Bene T women were ALSO using them in that way as part of their schemes and genealogical experiments.

We dont see a grand good or grand evil playing out.
What we see is people justifying actions to lay out certain events.

For example the worm emperor Leto II did alot of assassinating, coercion, wars, bribery, and pretty much pairing up people over his 3500 year reign to set out the Golden Path and get rid of the prescience that people like the Bene G and the evil beyond were relying on to exterminate humanity.


So no I dont think its a fair comparison to say F.Herbert was championing any side in his universe, rather he was building a universe that was filled with compelling, complex, and interesting characters, factions, houses, tribes, cultures, and beliefs.


I dont think Shiro gets the excuse they would like since when they first made those changes it was in their FAQ why they were doing it (hint for a modern audience).
And as I said already no one (I should hope not) is telling them not to add to the universe- they should, much as westwood did with house ordos.
However, do not change the established universe and characters to suit a "modern audience".


I also do not believe shiro has created anything of that complex and compelling nature- which is a disappointment. This whole universe is about intrigue, politics, shadow wars, etc- so where are they...

[GinsengSamurai]

Messaggio originale di HenloPeeps:

Messaggio originale di GinsengSamurai:

SNIP

No this is the problem is the insertion of narratives.
I dont believe his real world politics had much of a say on his creative writings.
And no he didnt challenge conservative views.

So no I dont think its a fair comparison to say F.Herbert was championing any side in his universe, rather he was building a universe that was filled with compelling, complex, and interesting characters, factions, houses, tribes, cultures, and beliefs.

I never said Dune wasn't created with a multitude of attitudes, ideals, and cultures. I said and quote "I agree with you about the original Dune books with complex issues, questioning moral/immoral/grey areas, etc." Did you just glanced at my comment and picked out a few random words to justify your response to me?



Firstly, Frank Herbert in his middle age, was a progressive Republican in the sense, like me, believe change is a good thing, but not radical change. Gradual change with caution is what is needed.

Secondly, Dune was published in 1965 when feminism was, in my opinion, at the strongest point of its momentum. At the same time, there were anti-feminist groups that were aligned with conservative groups trying to undermine women's rights.

Lastly, by the time Frank Herbert was nearing his death, he pretty much renounce his party alignment and considered himself a sort of anarchist, believing big government is an evil.

Now, with that out of the way, his Dune books is a mirror of his ideologies. He wrote strong women and strong women groups into his books. He wrote about feudalistic governments that yield a great power with equally as great of a corruption. He wrote about how society form large memberships towards a cause, a person, or family and how those societies deteriorate over time, despite the original teachers of their leaders and founders.

So, while yes, he did write an universe with vast belief systems, an unlimited range of shades in how perspectives are made, the paths humanity takes, and all the waxes and wanes of society, ultimately, he dared challenge the status quo of its time.

The way Frank Herbert did it was beautifully done. Instead of attacking one side, he attacked ALL sides at the same time of supporting ALL sides in a gradient of perspectives.

Conservatives of that time, and even now, don't do any of them. Conservatives in general believe women are inferior (not talking about biology aspects), they believed that they should stay home and take care of children, they believed women don't deserve to run for office, nor vote. They attack one side and call it a day. Frank Herbert didn't. He dare challenged the status quo and said paraphrased, "There is more than one world view. There are many, but at the end of the day, I don't support tyrannical structures, no matter how pure of goodness that founders may be."

Messaggio originale di HenloPeeps:

However, do not change the established universe and characters to suit a "modern audience"..

I disagree with this point of view. Shiro got the license to create a Dune game of their vision. If they added Teletubbies to it, then it's a part of Dune Spice Wars' lore. That's how fanfic works. Shiro didn't take the original books and rewrote them.

The anti-woke people can have your opinions, but they can't tell Shiro they're wrong in making Liet Kynes into a black woman like the new Dune movie. Only Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert can, and so far, Brian Herbert thought the new Dune movie was amazing.

[Spicy Grasshopper]

Ok let me give you the TL;DR there is nowhere where F.Herbert says his politics influenced his writings.
That is YOU placing it there.

He was clear and generally people have the view that his idea of writing was to present a problem, and then show how different groups dealt with that problem, the whole idea was not to be formulaic and not give you a straight beat from a to b.

You are inserting real world politics into the Dune universe and frank herberts writings that he himself never said was there.
In fact as far as we are aware the only real world inspiration he drew from was logging in Oregon and his use of mushrooms.

And no it isnt only Herbert (F and B) who get to say its bad, anyone who has invested serious time into these books and the lore behind them gets to say they are bad.


Its clear to me that you have a political ideological bent that you wish to impart here- and it is wrong to do so. Because you are inferring a whole lot of things that cant be corroborated.

So dont make statements like "on his deathbed he did X" because that is very foolish. And it has no bearing on the Dune universe or his reasons for writing it (long after its been written and published).

[GinsengSamurai]

Messaggio originale di HenloPeeps:

Ok let me give you the TL;DR there is nowhere where F.Herbert says his politics influenced his writings.
That is YOU placing it there.

He was clear and generally people have the view that his idea of writing was to present a problem, and then show how different groups dealt with that problem, the whole idea was not to be formulaic and not give you a straight beat from a to b..

I'm disappointed. I thought for a moment, finally, someone who has an open mind like Frank Herbert, but you're exactly like the OP of this thread, disguised with pseudo-intellectual discourse. ;)

So here's another TLDR for you....

Frank Herbert interview:

- https://futurespast-editions.blogspot.com/2013/10/lost-interview-futuristic-meditations.html
- https://futurespast-editions.blogspot.com/2013/11/lost-interview-futuristic-meditations.html
- https://futurespast-editions.blogspot.com/2013/11/lost-interview-futuristic-meditations_25.html

[Spicy Grasshopper]

Messaggio originale di GinsengSamurai:

SNIP

Unfortunately blogs are not reputable sources especially on relatively unknown sites.
And even if I gave you it was printed in 1984 that would have been about two years before his death and long after the publishing of Dune...

Unless you can show proof going back to the 60's its not acceptable, because people do change views over time, and thus the views and reasons for doing things in the 80's might not have been the same in the 60's.
Also most of the musings there have nothing to do with Dune. Like three quarters of it is about fixing real world politics and then trying to tie it back into dune. Which read above.

[RyanEX2000]

Messaggio originale di IonizedMercury:

The super-masculine Bene Telilax in the series also thought of everyone but themselves as "degenerates" and of women as cattle.

Then they got destroyed both psychologically and phyiscally...by women.

Herbert did not stand with you lot. Burn that into your cranium.

First, super masculine? The race referred to as "gnomes" by the rest of the galaxy? I fail to see what pointing out the Tleliax getting their comeuppance does considering the rest of the galaxy despised them.

Also, you clearly either don't know, or just decided to not mention what the Bene Gesserit have been doing to the various leaders of various Houses over generations...only to get put in their place right at the end. By...as they would put it...a mere man.

Herbert recognized their was bigotry and stupidity on all sides. You seem to deal in absolutes where one is ponies and rainbows and the other is pure evil.

Do you IDENTIFY as a five year old perchance?

[RyanEX2000]

Messaggio originale di GinsengSamurai:

Messaggio originale di HenloPeeps:

No this is the problem is the insertion of narratives.
I dont believe his real world politics had much of a say on his creative writings.
And no he didnt challenge conservative views.

So no I dont think its a fair comparison to say F.Herbert was championing any side in his universe, rather he was building a universe that was filled with compelling, complex, and interesting characters, factions, houses, tribes, cultures, and beliefs.

I never said Dune wasn't created with a multitude of attitudes, ideals, and cultures. I said and quote "I agree with you about the original Dune books with complex issues, questioning moral/immoral/grey areas, etc." Did you just glanced at my comment and picked out a few random words to justify your response to me?

:lunar2019deadpanpig:

Firstly, Frank Herbert in his middle age, was a progressive Republican in the sense, like me, believe change is a good thing, but not radical change. Gradual change with caution is what is needed.

Secondly, Dune was published in 1965 when feminism was, in my opinion, at the strongest point of its momentum. At the same time, there were anti-feminist groups that were aligned with conservative groups trying to undermine women's rights.

Lastly, by the time Frank Herbert was nearing his death, he pretty much renounce his party alignment and considered himself a sort of anarchist, believing big government is an evil.

Now, with that out of the way, his Dune books is a mirror of his ideologies. He wrote strong women and strong women groups into his books. He wrote about feudalistic governments that yield a great power with equally as great of a corruption. He wrote about how society form large memberships towards a cause, a person, or family and how those societies deteriorate over time, despite the original teachers of their leaders and founders.

So, while yes, he did write an universe with vast belief systems, an unlimited range of shades in how perspectives are made, the paths humanity takes, and all the waxes and wanes of society, ultimately, he dared challenge the status quo of its time.

The way Frank Herbert did it was beautifully done. Instead of attacking one side, he attacked ALL sides at the same time of supporting ALL sides in a gradient of perspectives.

Conservatives of that time, and even now, don't do any of them. Conservatives in general believe women are inferior (not talking about biology aspects), they believed that they should stay home and take care of children, they believed women don't deserve to run for office, nor vote. They attack one side and call it a day. Frank Herbert didn't. He dare challenged the status quo and said paraphrased, "There is more than one world view. There are many, but at the end of the day, I don't support tyrannical structures, no matter how pure of goodness that founders may be."

Messaggio originale di HenloPeeps:

However, do not change the established universe and characters to suit a "modern audience"..

I disagree with this point of view. Shiro got the license to create a Dune game of their vision. If they added Teletubbies to it, then it's a part of Dune Spice Wars' lore. That's how fanfic works. Shiro didn't take the original books and rewrote them.

The anti-woke people can have your opinions, but they can't tell Shiro they're wrong in making Liet Kynes into a black woman like the new Dune movie. Only Frank Herbert and Brian Herbert can, and so far, Brian Herbert thought the new Dune movie was amazing.

I went through your links, and unless it's in another interview somewhere I don't see him talking about how politics influenced his work. He talked about politics, so I suppose you could say that is how, but I find it to be a bit of a stretch.

Yes, he wrote strong female characters and you don't see anyone here disagreeing with that. The issue is taking an established MALE character and changing HIM female. There was a period when Liet was dead before Paul and Jessica joined the Fremen so they could've had Chani as being in charge i suppose...though Fremen were generally patriarchal.

I, personally, have repeatedly stated that if they wanted to make such changes they should've just gone all in and give us a playable Bene Gesserit faction for the first time in Dune's gaming history.

As with regards to your non gaming remarks. First off...not American. West Indian living in the West Indies. But I am also a believer in the racism/sexism of low expectations. You say Conservatives believe women are inferior...yet they aren't the ones insisting that they be given special treatment to attain roles they didn't earn. It's like just giving a woman a license to drive without making her take the test. It just enforces the stereotype that women shouldn't drive when she inevitably crashes.

And I'm not even going to get into how feminists (not women) are awfully specific of the type of jobs they demand 50/50 in.

Finally...of course they're going to sing praises. They've seen how the woke crowd has gone after stars that don't toe the line. They know they aren't as big as someone like Rowling, so they can't just ignore any backlash.

[Soho]

So when they re-did the Battlestar Galactica TV series so many years later, they re-did the character named Starbuck

In the original show the character was a guy (the actor Dirk Benedict who had also played a character on another TV show called the 'A-Team' with Mr. T)

In the later re-make Starbuck was a woman. I don't know as much about her as I really didn't watch the newer show as much but from what I viewed she had the similar character traits as the original Starbuck, like sort of a rebel, great pilot, risk-taker, loyal to their friends, active libido, etc

My point is there were a lot of changes made between the 'new' Battlestar Galactica and the 'old' Battlestar Galactica, including race/gender swaps... that was almost 20 years ago! ... and the new vision for the franchise was just as successful as the prior one if not more in some ways

The 'new' show ran for four seasons which tells me it was sufficiently popular, enough for it to be considered successful

There were likely many die-hard fans of the franchise that were very upset the new writers took such liberties with their sacred source artifacts, but I question the idea that this is some 'new trend' (gender/race swapping of characters in an IP) or is it something that entertainment writers/creators have actually been doing since Ancient Greece or even before that ?

It has certainly been done with Shakespeare dozens of times

"I loved Shakespeare's original Romeo & Juliette so much..."

[RyanEX2000]

Messaggio originale di Soho:

So when they re-did the Battlestar Galactica TV series so many years later, they re-did the character named Starbuck

In the original show the character was a guy (the actor Dirk Benedict who had also played a character on another TV show called the 'A-Team' with Mr. T)

In the later re-make Starbuck was a woman. I don't know as much about her as I really didn't watch the newer show as much but from what I viewed she had the similar character traits as the original Starbuck, like sort of a rebel, great pilot, risk-taker, loyal to their friends, active libido, etc

My point is there were a lot of changes made between the 'new' Battlestar Galactica and the 'old' Battlestar Galactica, including race/gender swaps... that was almost 20 years ago! ... and the new vision for the franchise was just as successful as the prior one if not more in some ways

The 'new' show ran for four seasons which tells me it was sufficiently popular, enough for it to be considered successful

There were likely many die-hard fans of the franchise that were very upset the new writers took such liberties with their sacred source artifacts, but I question the idea that this is some 'new trend' (gender/race swapping of characters in an IP) or is it something that entertainment writers/creators have actually been doing since Ancient Greece or even before that ?

It has certainly been done with Shakespeare dozens of times

"I loved Shakespeare's original Romeo & Juliette so much..."

I believe I referenced this. This was in the "before times" when it was the best actor that got the job. I believe this was also around the time Samuel L Jackson became Nick Fury, who was originally white (see the old Spider-Man cartoons and comics).

The way I heard it told was that the actress walked into the room smoking a cigar while holding a deck of cards while giving Starbuck's signature smirk. Now while I don't remember the original SB having an excessive libido (it was a different time) he did love smoking cigars and playing cards.

She nailed the audition and got the role. We live in a different time now where they scream about John Wayne playing Genghis Khan while in the same breath praising Jodie Turner-Smith (a black woman) for playing Anne Bolyen (a British queen), and they won't be nominated for any awards if they don't hit certain diversity "quotas".

Video games don't have auditions, except for maybe VAs...most of which are terrible unless in Japanese (yes I'm a weeb, fite me). So there's no need to make changes UNLESS there's a specific desire to alter a character.

Kinda like the current ginger-cide.

[IonizedMercury]

Messaggio originale di RyanEX2000:

Messaggio originale di IonizedMercury:

The super-masculine Bene Telilax in the series also thought of everyone but themselves as "degenerates" and of women as cattle.

Then they got destroyed both psychologically and phyiscally...by women.

Herbert did not stand with you lot. Burn that into your cranium.

First, super masculine? The race referred to as "gnomes" by the rest of the galaxy? I fail to see what pointing out the Tleliax getting their comeuppance does considering the rest of the galaxy despised them.

Also, you clearly either don't know, or just decided to not mention what the Bene Gesserit have been doing to the various leaders of various Houses over generations...only to get put in their place right at the end. By...as they would put it...a mere man.

Herbert recognized their was bigotry and stupidity on all sides. You seem to deal in absolutes where one is ponies and rainbows and the other is pure evil.

Do you IDENTIFY as a five year old perchance?

LoL, you haven't noticed that Herbert portraying the one people with a strong supremacist ideology as pathetic little imps wasn't intentional?

Buddy, by the end of the series the Bene Gesserit are the only origanisation that made it from the beginning of the series all the way to the end and they never wavered even a bit about what their convictions. Neither Paul nor Leto II could actually make a dent here for how much they tried to.
The Bene Tleilax finally make their move to dominate the Empire and are almost on the spot exterminated because they were never as clever as they thought they were.

The Bene Tleilax, that's the people mostly corresponding to you sorry lot.

Sorry, but Herbert had a very low opinion of fascists.

And yes, they're hyper-masculine, or why do you think they'd otherwise reduce their women to mindless breeding tanks?

[Soho]

Messaggio originale di IonizedMercury:

that's the people mostly corresponding to you sorry lot

Wait, they are writing letters to the place that somebody parks their car ?

[IonizedMercury]

Messaggio originale di Soho:

Messaggio originale di IonizedMercury:

that's the people mostly corresponding to you sorry lot

Wait, they are writing letters to the place that somebody parks their car ?

Nah, they write angry posts complaining about the gender change of fictional characters.

[Artuurs]

I love how these current day trendy esg identity politics are allowed but House Ordos isnt, like, how is that fair?

[IonizedMercury]

Messaggio originale di Artuurs:

I love how these current day trendy esg identity politics are allowed but House Ordos isnt, like, how is that fair?

Nobody stops you from writing, drawing and/or animating your own Dune fanfiction that includes House Ordos and removes all the women and non-whites fromt the universe.

It's perfectly fair.