I loved Frank Herbert's original Dune so much

[Kamamura]

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

[Nearlydead]

The movie missed the mark on many occasions and the gender swap was just one part of it. It feels lorebreaking since it doesn't align with fremen culture imo.

Maybe the devs were told to make Kynes female, maybe they wanted to capitalize on the movie's success. I can't really blame them after all because they obviously got the idea from somewhere else.
I may dislike this wokeness but still tolerate it because the game is good.

[Chocopacotaco]

Originally posted by spike2071:

Originally posted by Kamamura:

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

Does anything change if Liet is a woman? The speech is the same. The actions are the same.

Why are you so upset about gender swapping a minor character who had no real relevance to the plot? Out of fear?Anyone could have droned on and on about ecology.

There is also the idea that the game seems to be a tie-in with the movies: the font of "Dune," Liet being a woman, the bald Baron Harkonnen, being released a few months after the movie, etc.

Shiro has several other original games, so your barb about originality is unfounded.

Does it change anything if a character in a deeply patriarchal society such as the fermin is a woman. That's just a stupid question.

[Moon Punisher]

Meh do what I do mate. Put the company in the ignore list. You cant change their minds, but you can avoid giving them money.

[spike2071]

Originally posted by Chocopacotaco:

Originally posted by spike2071:

Does anything change if Liet is a woman? The speech is the same. The actions are the same.

Why are you so upset about gender swapping a minor character who had no real relevance to the plot? Out of fear?Anyone could have droned on and on about ecology.

There is also the idea that the game seems to be a tie-in with the movies: the font of "Dune," Liet being a woman, the bald Baron Harkonnen, being released a few months after the movie, etc.

Shiro has several other original games, so your barb about originality is unfounded.

Does it change anything if a character in a deeply patriarchal society such as the fermin is a woman. That's just a stupid question.

Well, if you can't spell "Fremen" correctly... :P

What does it change? Are you saying that once Pardot died, the Fremen would just stop listening to his child? This is a Fremen child who holds some power in the Empire and immense power on Arrakis, and who is actively working to help them change the planet into the one described by Liet's father. Your argument is that because Pardot's child is now a woman they wouldn't accord her some measure of respect and leadership? They have a Reverend Mother, so clearly they understand that some women can be in leadership positions. Especially considering that Liet lives in two worlds: the Fremen world and the Imperial world. Something no other Fremen can do. Much like their Reverend Mother has unique and special skills, and is considered a leader.

Your argument is that because Liet now has a vagina, they would just toss her aside? The one person with the connections, knowledge, and ability to change Dune into their paradise. That doesn't sound right, considering Stilgar says his duty is to the strength of the tribe. Or when he says the strength of a woman can be boundless. Or when he let Jessica live because she could teach him the weirding way of combat.

[Graven Ash]

I got like 112hrs in this, I really do enjoy the gameplay, I really don't like the Liet Keynes thing but given it was for the movie while it is grating I can just not play the Fremen race in the game, fine I guess. But with this new woke BS can I get a refund? I mean I know I can't but you wanna make that an option so you don't take the dirty money from us evil right wingers?

[spike2071]

Originally posted by Drake:

P.S: If you feel the need to call me names for having an opinion, can it, save it, and go away back to your cave. You people from the "I will destroy you if you disagree with me" tribe are a cancer that needs to be excised.

Lol, unintended irony. You disagree with them and say they're a cancer and need to be excised. Congratulations, you're just as bad as you claim they are. You're a hypocrite.

[oharaldb]

Originally posted by IonizedMercury:

Originally posted by Mick Salvage:

Oh the reasons were given, very clear and precise.

Nope.

You gave exactly zero reason why any of your blather matters.

Reason was given. " Namely: Chani in no way resembles her mother."
That you did not even read what he wrote, does not changee that.

[⎛⎝ Kupo ⎠⎞]

Originally posted by mordante:

The irony of bringing right wing culture wars to raise the corpse of Frank Herbert is that the geezer would almost certainly be reviled by the right wing if he was alive today. He'd almost certainly have been saying some big "I told you so's" about the rise of Populist demagogues in recent politics across UK, US, and Europe.

And of course for people that have read all the novels - the concept that the guy who wrote so many all female societies Bene Gesserit, fish speakers, honoured matres etc - could somehow we worried about the gender swapping of his ecologist dude is laughable.

Herbert was an amazing writer with some truly brilliant and challenging ideas - such people really wouldn't be sullying themselves with the tawdry nonsense of confected "anti woke" outrage because people are interpreting his source material with creative license.

One of my favour stories about the guy was how much he really dug the David Lynch version at the time the critics (and uber book fans) were panning it as diverging too far from the source material - commenting that all an author really needs is for their story to exist in the screen version and Lynch's definitely pulled it off.

I don't rly think it's fair or a good idea to '' raise the corpse '' in the other direction either.
Speaking for the dead is generally quite silly unless it was something specifically stated.
A lot of the voices online about this stuff are quite extreme because every discussion on the internet always gets hijacked by extreme fringes ( this includes people on the left too btw ).
Normal people typically are not going to sit around spamming and screaming on Twitter etc.

But I think that most people are kinda tired of the race and gender swaps, even moreso with how it's even happening with historical figures.
Right wing extremists will be more vocal about it, but I think generally speaking the average person thinks it's dumb and annoying.

The '' rise of populism '' for the most part in Europe at least is pretty overblown too, I think France and the UK has more issues with it but it's not some widespread thing.
Altho in the US I do think it's a bigger issue but I also think it's both fringes on the right and the left that engage in it, and online the prevailing populism is left-wing populism by far.

But no, I don't think that just because someone wrote novels with '' powerful women '' it means they'd be fine with third parties just changing their characters like that.
I don't think that's some kind of an obvious conclusion to draw like you're trying to do.

[Alpharius]

Originally posted by JayTwoPointOh Shiro:

Hey kamamura,

Nothing "woke" about it, this is just an alternate reimagining of the Dune universe and its characters. We've been clear since the start that the game is inpired by not only the books, but also the wider Dune universe as a whole (games, board games, movies, prequels, etc...) and the changes we've made reflect that.

There's no point looking for a deeper meaning than "because that's the way we wanted things to be in our game", because there's nothing more to our decisions than that.

Funcom, Legendary, The Herbert Estate and the wide majority of our players are very happy with the game and our direction, so don't let some incorrect assumptions about motives get in the way of something you might enjoy if you're a fan of the world.

Would love to hear your thoughts if you get around to playing it!

James

Hi Shiro,

Just curious as to the reason(s) for changes made from the classic lore? I assume there is a purpose otherwise it's all arbitrary?
I enjoyed the older EA games based around Dune. They also made changes (adding in a faction etc) but the devs were happy to explain the choices they made for mechanics reasons etc.

Kind Regards

[Ninjaguiden]

Originally posted by mordante:

The irony of bringing right wing culture wars to raise the corpse of Frank Herbert is that the geezer would almost certainly be reviled by the right wing if he was alive today. He'd almost certainly have been saying some big "I told you so's" about the rise of Populist demagogues in recent politics across UK, US, and Europe.

And of course for people that have read all the novels - the concept that the guy who wrote so many all female societies Bene Gesserit, fish speakers, honoured matres etc - could somehow we worried about the gender swapping of his ecologist dude is laughable.

Herbert was an amazing writer with some truly brilliant and challenging ideas - such people really wouldn't be sullying themselves with the tawdry nonsense of confected "anti woke" outrage because people are interpreting his source material with creative license.

One of my favour stories about the guy was how much he really dug the David Lynch version at the time the critics (and uber book fans) were panning it as diverging too far from the source material - commenting that all an author really needs is for their story to exist in the screen version and Lynch's definitely pulled it off.

I totally agree with you on that all this we're seeing about the game right now is the typical culture war ♥♥♥♥, but from what I know Frank Herbert wasn't as progressive as you write out...he partically disowned his own son for being gay for one.

[Thyfate]

And why not add a mutation to the Spice worms so that Dune could become a fertile lush verdant planet while preserving the worms as tiny home pets which would deliver spice with kisses ?
Such a wonderful reimagining with no ethical choice so that all's well that ends well ?

[IonizedMercury]

Originally posted by Thyfate:

And why not add a mutation to the Spice worms so that Dune could become a fertile lush verdant planet while preserving the worms as tiny home pets which would deliver spice with kisses ?
Such a wonderful reimagining with no ethical choice so that all's well that ends well ?

I bet that sounded really smart when you first thought of it.

[RyanEX2000]

Originally posted by spike2071:

Originally posted by Kamamura:

The latest movie was decent, but I don't understand the need for "woke" changes like turning planetologist Kynes into a woman - it was one of the most memorable characters, his insights into ecology so deep that they are quoted even on real life ecologists' forums. It's sad that the developers of this game decided to follow suit. I see very little of the original vibes in this game.

If you feel the need to change something, why don't you write something original? Out of fear? Knowing that without piggybacking onto a famous predecessor, it would never gain recognition?

Does anything change if Liet is a woman? The speech is the same. The actions are the same.

Why are you so upset about gender swapping a minor character who had no real relevance to the plot? Out of fear?Anyone could have droned on and on about ecology.

There is also the idea that the game seems to be a tie-in with the movies: the font of "Dune," Liet being a woman, the bald Baron Harkonnen, being released a few months after the movie, etc.

Shiro has several other original games, so your barb about originality is unfounded.

Ah yes, the "does it affect anything" argument.

It clearly affected those that wanted the change to begin with. Yes it affects things, like his childhood. Liet's wife was the wife of his best friend whom he had a competition with to win her hand. After losing he called in a favor with the smugglers and went to visit Salusa Secundus to see how it affected his father. When he returned he was indirectly responsible for his friends death, after which point he was honor bound to take his wife as his own.

TRUE writers don't just write things willy nilly so they could be subject to random change by people years on who think they know his story better than him. They tried that with Tolkien and Rings of Power...how'd that turn out?

Originally posted by Cone:

Woman, in a video game? This woke mind-virus is getting out of hand.

Dune has plenty of women. Some of them the most powerful people in the setting. Jessica Atreides, Alia Atreides, Chani...the fudging Bene Gesserit and Norma Cenva, the woman that invented the Holtzman Drive and the first Navigator. So why change a man into a woman?

[Silvertongued Devil]

Ah the Bene Gesserit. Arguably the most dangerous combatants in the setting outside of Paul's rechristened Fedaykin - and even then that's only because the Fedaykin were explicitly taught Bene Gesserit martial arts.

The setting may be generally patriarchal, with inheritance invariably going to the men, but the Bene Gesserit were peak women who kicked an absolutely terrifying amount of ass. That's one of the reasons I'd love to see them appear as a strongly asymmetrical faction - effectively spread throughout the other factions, pointing them towards one goal or another by giving them advantages and so on. Conspiracies within conspiracies.

Same with the Spacing Guild, Ix, and Bene Tleilax, tbh. The niche non-house factions are frequently the most interesting and unique parts of the setting.

Though admittedly I'm not quite sure how you'd set that up in the current paradigm. At least not easily.


That said, I do wish a Shiro dev would respond to my proposition on the Liet Kynes thing - preferably without just blunt dismissal. I just want to engage them on some common ground, achieving a similar goal but in a way that at least moderately satisfies all involved. Or, I guess, understand why it is non-viable beyond me just being some scrub on the forum. Almost tempted to make a thread so that the first post everybody reads isn't quite as accusatory.

[RyanEX2000]

Originally posted by Silvertongued Devil:

Ah the Bene Gesserit. Arguably the most dangerous combatants in the setting outside of Paul's rechristened Fedaykin - and even then that's only because the Fedaykin were explicitly taught Bene Gesserit martial arts.

The setting may be generally patriarchal, with inheritance invariably going to the men, but the Bene Gesserit were peak women who kicked an absolutely terrifying amount of ass. That's one of the reasons I'd love to see them appear as a strongly asymmetrical faction - effectively spread throughout the other factions, pointing them towards one goal or another by giving them advantages and so on. Conspiracies within conspiracies.

Same with the Spacing Guild, Ix, and Bene Tleilax, tbh. The niche non-house factions are frequently the most interesting and unique parts of the setting.

Though admittedly I'm not quite sure how you'd set that up in the current paradigm. At least not easily.

I think Battle for Dune in the early 2000s did it well.

It made the lesser Houses factions for you to ally with. Allying with Ix made the Tleleixaxu hostile and vice versa. It could make the Spacing Guild and Gesserit factions that give you tasks to perform to gain influence. The more you get the more help you get from them.