Ways to Make Spice More Central

[Sildraug]

I've seen a few threads on here discussing the feeling of a lack of impact of spice in the game's systems, and I can understand the sentiment. I can agree with the idea that it would feel more true to the source material if it was escalated in effect above the rest of the various resources the player needs to control, but at the same time, I can appreciate the need for maintaining a logistical balance. Having spice does not mean you have infrastructure, and lacking in infrastructure means a better-equipped faction might just exercise force of arms to take your spice. That said, having a lot of spice probably should be more impactful to the game's systems than, say, having a lot of concrete.

One way that occurred to me as a possible route in that direction is allowing the player to give people under their control spice to enhance their abilities. This could be represented in two ways--as a general 'buff this thing' button, letting a unit (probably only units in their territory), structure, agent, or advisor do the thing they already do, but better (either permanently or for a duration), or as an unlocker, enabling new behaviors that only a unit, structure, agent or advisor who has partaken in spice can perform.

In either case, having the spice spent incur an up-front cost and then a (potentially ramping, probably ramping tied with the magnitude of effect) maintenance fee for it to persist means a player should need to weigh carefully whether it's worth consuming the spice themselves, stockpiling it for flexibility, or shipping it off-world to sell to CHOAM or to pay the Imperial Tax / Bribe. Some factions, like the Fremen, might have units that, by default, have an upkeep in Spice, because they regularly consume it already, but allocating them even more spice might make them similarly more potent.

Similarly, failing to feed someone's spice addiction, or ceasing to provide them with spice, should probably come with a pretty steep cost. Units or agents in early stages might just get debuffs, but in deeper stages of addiction (maintenance costs too deep in the negatives) might disband, or defect to whoever has the highest stockpiles (or next-highest if you're just withholding). Structures might similarly be penalized in their production, until the withdrawal symptoms pass (or until staff cycle out to the point where no one still working there was dosed). I'm not really sure what withdrawal penalties I'd ascribe to a advisor, if any--advisors might just require a higher lump sum to upgrade rather than a maintenance fee, implying them to have the foresight to ask for their share up front.

This gives Spice something of a universal system impact. It can make anyone smarter, healthier, more efficient, and potentially more expensive. It becomes more valuable to the player's economy by being more flexible than Solari, and it becomes much more important to track how much spice someone else has stockpiled, or how many consumers they employ (which a high level of Infilitration might reveal). This also can be easily tied to character or unit art to convey spice usage.

That said, I could see it being a risk where applying a system like this might be TOO wide-reaching, necessitating balancing out the costs and benefits of spending spice on individual military units, individual buildings, agents, and advisors against each other and against paying the tax or just making more money. A simplification might be to allow the player to spend spice on categories, rather than individual units, which may be easier to keep under control.

It would be a lore-friendly change, though, that I think could really help distinguish this game's systems well against its immediate relatives and answer a mechanical concern I've seen a few people bring up.

I'd be curious to hear what other people think, though, both about this potential mechanical approach and any others that come to mind. I've heard people say they think it's a problem--if so, how would you address it?

[i-dot]

Spice ougth to be IMPORTANT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
now in the game the Spice is not important at all!

[JayTwoPointOh [Shiro]]

Some really cool ideas here!

We're looking at ways of making spice more central to the dynamics of the game, and have a lot of ideas and concepts floating around, so I'll make sure any sugeestions we see make their way to the devs :)

Appreciate the feedback, and thanks for playing the game.

James

[Vahutoll]

You can't sell spice already collected, so what's the point of spice price volatility

If a player could stockpile when price are low and sell everything when price are high (maybe not 100% at once) spice management would be more interesting (shall i boost my faction now or wait for better efficiency)

[Godefroy de Outremere]

Origineel geplaatst door Vahutoll:

You can't sell spice already collected, so what's the point of spice price volatility

If a player could stockpile when price are low and sell everything when price are high (maybe not 100% at once) spice management would be more interesting (shall i boost my faction now or wait for better efficiency)

that's actuallly easy and good solution

[Sildraug]

Being able to seize resource stockpiles could also serve as an incentive to spend, and has basis in the books. If Spice Silos expand spice storage, giving an attacking player any spice 'lost' in that expanded storage would be a pretty clean way to model that, and would give an incentive for players to attack silos even if they don't seize the tile.

[Laliloluhla]

I like the idea of spice storages increasing your stockpile size. I'd also like if spice wasn't static on the map and pockets of it would appear and dissappear over time. To encourage further expansion for spice or have multiple different factions extracting from the same spice source like a form of non-aggression pact. The harvesters are already easily deployable so I imagine such a change could be relatively easily implemented.

[IonizedMercury]

Disagree on this completely. The Fremen are constantly immersed in Spice, they basically breath it but all they get from it are the Eyes of Ibad and the occasional orgy involving the Water of Life. Only certain people get special powers from it like the Bene Gesserit or the Guild navigators.
I would also not want even more buttons to press and to keep track of, there's enough things that need my attention right now and combat should definitely stay more macro-focussed.

[Sildraug]

Origineel geplaatst door PMarricks:

Disagree on this completely. The Fremen are constantly immersed in Spice, they basically breath it but all they get from it are the Eyes of Ibad and the occasional orgy involving the Water of Life. Only certain people get special powers from it like the Bene Gesserit or the Guild navigators.
I would also not want even more buttons to press and to keep track of, there's enough things that need my attention right now and combat should definitely stay more macro-focussed.

Fair enough on the mechanical objections, but in terms of its effects in canon, from the wiki:

Mind altering: it could awaken dormant parts of the human mind and encourage expanded sensory perceptions. In some humans (notably the Bene Gesserit, Guild Navigators, and some members of the Atreides bloodline), heavy doses led to powerful abilities that include prescience;
Health benefits: taken regularly, it increased life expectancy and fortified overall health levels (in many cases life expectancy was tripled);
Addictiveness: the spice had narcotic properties, thus increasing demand and creating a large and hungry market for it. An individual's addiction to the spice would worsen the more they consumed it.
Physical effects: sustained use of the spice led to human eyes being discolored so that the entire eye would be stained blue - so called Eyes of Ibad. Extensive exposure to the spice created a huge physical dependency that could radically alter the entire body (see Guild Navigators).

The points I cited about it making people smarter, healthier, more efficient and more expensive were specifically drawing from those factors.

I do think it would be possible to keep it from being 'more buttons to press', like by making it a function of a policy being set rather than something to micro (possibly replacing the CHOAM side of the spice slider).

[IonizedMercury]

Origineel geplaatst door Sildraug:

Origineel geplaatst door PMarricks:

Disagree on this completely. The Fremen are constantly immersed in Spice, they basically breath it but all they get from it are the Eyes of Ibad and the occasional orgy involving the Water of Life. Only certain people get special powers from it like the Bene Gesserit or the Guild navigators.
I would also not want even more buttons to press and to keep track of, there's enough things that need my attention right now and combat should definitely stay more macro-focussed.

Fair enough on the mechanical objections, but in terms of its effects in canon, from the wiki:

Mind altering: it could awaken dormant parts of the human mind and encourage expanded sensory perceptions. In some humans (notably the Bene Gesserit, Guild Navigators, and some members of the Atreides bloodline), heavy doses led to powerful abilities that include prescience;
Health benefits: taken regularly, it increased life expectancy and fortified overall health levels (in many cases life expectancy was tripled);
Addictiveness: the spice had narcotic properties, thus increasing demand and creating a large and hungry market for it. An individual's addiction to the spice would worsen the more they consumed it.
Physical effects: sustained use of the spice led to human eyes being discolored so that the entire eye would be stained blue - so called Eyes of Ibad. Extensive exposure to the spice created a huge physical dependency that could radically alter the entire body (see Guild Navigators).

The points I cited about it making people smarter, healthier, more efficient and more expensive were specifically drawing from those factors.

I do think it would be possible to keep it from being 'more buttons to press', like by making it a function of a policy being set rather than something to micro (possibly replacing the CHOAM side of the spice slider).

All that stuff requires refining the Spice into other things and that makes it so expensive on top of the already massive cost that harvesting it has in the first place that besides the Guild basically only the rich and powerful have access to those commodities and not in great quanities either (certainly not enough that Imperial Nobles develop the Eyes of Ibad themselves). As I said, the Fremen breath Spice, but they don't seem to gain any noticeable benefit from it. Spice as a combat drug is simply not a thing.

[Sildraug]

The spice tracked in game seems to be specifically refined spice, given the basic building you need in order to start gaining spice is a refinery building. There may be further stages of refinement past that that I'm not aware of, certainly, but it requiring refining seems like it's already covered in existing mechanics.

Also, from reading up on the wiki on characters that have particular affinities for spice, like Paul, it strongly suggested that they were pointedly able to apply the effects to combat. Paul, granted, is likely an exceptional case, but it does seem in general like it would fit within the canon, and even if it isn't applied as a direct combat drug, enabling advisors or boosting mentats with expanded consciousness could certainly have a force multiplying effect separate from raw Power, Defense, or Health numbers.

But let's assume that that's not a sufficient counterpoint for your purposes. What would you put forward instead, given the design problem of needing to make spice more integral to the game state?

[Falaris]

If you want spice to be absolutely central, make it:
Spice Harvesting: The game.

Where you run a mining operation. Allocate crew to a harvesters, best utilize their skills, and fight grueling production quotas. Make it like FTL where you assign crew to stations. You have engine rooms, rough refining, driving, small defence guns for raids, radio, lookout - you have to rotate crew or they get weird from spice overdose - and once the lookout spots wormsign, how long do you wait until relocating the crew to rig the harvester for flight evacuation? That game would be centered on spice and its harvesting. It could even be quite cool.

Thing is, there's another word in the title: Wars. And spice are not bullets. It's the reason for fighting, not the means. Confusing the two seems to be a major hobby on this forum.

Still, in my next post I will discuss the subject more seriously.

[sadoeconomist]

I don't agree with this idea that spice isn't important in the game and I feel like it's mostly a bad faith argument coming from the haters who are mad that the game isn't exactly like the old Westwood one - it's very much the most important resource, all the other ways of making money can only supplement it and not replace it, and if you fail to collect it and can't meet your ever-increasing quotas, it ruins you.

They're only saying spice isn't important in this game because in Dune 2, a much simpler game, spice was abstracted and served as the only currency that paid for everything, and they're upset about anything that's different from how it was in that game and looking for any excuse to say this one is worse.

That said, it wouldn't be a bad thing to make spice even more central to the game. Something simple that would make sense: make it so that to qualify for the governor charter, you also need to hold a certain percentage of the map's spice fields like you already do with villages and sietches, to encourage people to fight over them directly.

[Sildraug]

Origineel geplaatst door Falaris:

If you want spice to be absolutely central, make it:
Spice Harvesting: The game.

Where you run a mining operation. Allocate crew to a harvesters, best utilize their skills, and fight grueling production quotas. Make it like FTL where you assign crew to stations. You have engine rooms, rough refining, driving, small defence guns for raids, radio, lookout - you have to rotate crew or they get weird from spice overdose - and once the lookout spots wormsign, how long do you wait until relocating the crew to rig the harvester for flight evacuation? That game would be centered on spice and its harvesting. It could even be quite cool.

I agree, that sounds neat! Definitely isn't the intent with this game, though, fair to say.

Origineel geplaatst door Falaris:

Thing is, there's another word in the title: Wars. And spice are not bullets.

That's why I mentioned spice is not infrastructure, and it makes sense that better infrastructure would enable someone to come take your spice.

I do like the game in its current state, and am definitely curious to see what direction Shiro takes it. My intent in the thread was mostly to explore the design space, and see what other people would similarly explore in the space, because I find that kind of thing to be fun.

Origineel geplaatst door sadoeconomist:

That said, it wouldn't be a bad thing to make spice even more central to the game. Something simple that would make sense: make it so that to qualify for the governor charter, you also need to hold a certain percentage of the map's spice fields like you already do with villages and sietches, to encourage people to fight over them directly.

I like this suggestion, and can see it having an effect on the game flow, in encouraging players to track at greater length who seems to be making a bid for those purple tiles. Maybe controlling a spice field in general could provide ticking progress toward enabling that charter, like controlling map points in the old DoW games. That way, someone who clamps down on nearby spice tiles in the early game might be accelerating the charter victory, too, and not just enabling their victory once they have enough of them.

Honestly I'm a little surprised allying with sietches is even considered a prerequisite for the governorship charter, since it seems like the Landsraad really don't care about them!

[Falaris]

Now, for the serious discussion.

Spice is expensive. It's 620000 solaris for 10 grams, according to the book. You could buy a planet for a suitcase full of the stuff. And not just a rock either, but an idyllic planet with luxury resorts and a thriivng industry. It's not horribly far fetched to translate solaris to dollars. In today's dollar value, that 10g would be 4.8 million dollars.

No, you would not use it as a combat drug to make your soldiers better. Instead of doing that to ONE guy, you could hire another 100 troops. The idea just doesn't float.

But, would it work?
Hell yeah it would. Spice, taken over time, makes you stronger, faster, healthier, gives clarity of thought and vision, and prolong life. It's a super-drug. It is also a heavily addictive narcotic and would ensure the soldiers' loyalty. As long as you had spice to give them, at least. In larger doses, guild navigators can use it to enable them to fold space and move their 20km heighliners from one system to another. That's... quite a potent drug.

The Fremen don't eat it, by the way. Not intentionally. It's just that their environment is suffused by the stuff. Anyone living in unfiltered areas on Dune gain the eyes eventually - and while it's the noticeable part, that means a host of other physiological changes as well. (The Harkonnen were on Dune for a long time, but they protected themselves from the environment, living in air-conditioned palaces with plenty of water.).

Now, the Fremen are badasses. Partly just from living in a very harsh world. That's part of the theme of Dune anyway - that adversity breeds strength and capability. But part of it is also the spice. (Harkonnen, again, were the opposite - they enjoyed unlimited luxury).

Look at how it's reflected in the game - Fremen basic infantry has 600 health, while other's basic troops have 400. There's surprisingly little difference between Fremen warriors and Fedyakin - there should be more, I think, but still - they have serious regular troops.

I think that, a way to reflect this, would be to make veterancy a bigger thing. Troops that fight longer on dune, would be more exposed to spice, which would make them both more capable physically and mentally. Also, fresh troops would have a 'spice blur' effect, where they basically fight with a penalty from the narcotic effect.

This would be pronounced on factions that refuse to acclimatize on Dune. (Read: Harkonnen). But then, they have a lot of nasty tricks up their sleeves. They should have more.

Anyone that has dealt with pain medication knows that if you're on opiates constantly for a long time, they stop giving a debilitating 'high', but still reduce pain. (Withdrawal becomes worse though). Spice would be similar - early exposure would be debilitating, then it would be no real effect, then the physical enhancements start taking effect - shown by the Eyes of Ibad, making long-term troops quite a bit more capable.

This is supported somewhat by the descriptions in the book.

Note that the eyes of ibad is not just a visual effect. Your vision gets a blue filter, basically., so you SEE blue.

[Falaris]

Origineel geplaatst door sadoeconomist:

I

That said, it wouldn't be a bad thing to make spice even more central to the game. Something simple that would make sense: make it so that to qualify for the governor charter, you also need to hold a certain percentage of the map's spice fields like you already do with villages and sietches, to encourage people to fight over them directly.

Okay, this makes a LOT of sense, I like this. This has my vote.