Kynes being a woman @devs and anyone who still doesnt get it

[Spicy Grasshopper]

So I went away, opened one of the books I own on design principle.
Found the chapter I wanted and now I can share it with everyone here- in particular the devs.
I'd recommend reading the whole chapter, but for educational purposes on narrative design and choice I am going to pull a couple of parts.

"Chapter 10
Don't have things happen for no reason

...
Because fiction is make-believe, it has to be *more logical* than real life if it is to be believed. In real life, things may occur for no apparent reason. But in fiction you the writer simply cannot ever afford to lose sight of logic and let things happen for no apparent reason.
To make your stories logical, and therefore believable, you work always to make sure there is always a reason for what happens.
For one thing, you always provide characters with the right background- upbringing, experience, information- to motivate them generally in the direction of the action you want to show them taking.
A character, if she is to act with seeming reason, must come from a personal background that qualifies her to accomplish your plot action. You must set things up so that her general background- family, upbringing, education, health, whatever- make it seem reasonable that she would act as you want her to act in the story.
As an extreme example here, let's say you want your character to preach a sermon some Sunday in a southern baptist church, citing the life of Christ as the perfect type to emulate. Only a slow thinker would fail to put *something* in the story earlier to show how the character was either brought up in a Christian home, or went through a religious conversion to Christianity. Thus the general background must be given, or else the characters actions may seem to come from no logical origin.
Following the same example a step further, remember that the general background may not be enough. Your readers will also want to know the more recent event or events that have given your character to do what she is doing right now. Thus, in the example cited, you might have the Christian woman's minister husband fall suddenly ill, which prompts her, in desperation, to fill in for him after the congregation has already assembled.
...
A great many stories tend to be unbelievable because the writer just shoved a character onstage to do something without thinking through how and why the character got there.
You must constantly examine your story logic to make sure you have not inadvertently committed the same error."

The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes (and how to avoid them), written by J. Bingham (1992).


If you still don't get it or think gender bending and race bending "just works" 1) you aren't a designer. 2) you aren't a writer. 3) you do piss on Frank Herbert- because you are ignoring his design choices. 4) this game will be dead in a few months.

[IonizedMercury]

O yeah, and I can't find any reference on the store page for this game that it is meant to be some hyper lore-accurate adaption of the books either. The only adaption that could even manage to fit this description would be a visual novel at best.

[DuX1112]

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

I was also discussing the topic in general, I replied to you because you called me out on my tone. Don't pretend now that I made some grave mistake. My comment was otherwise very informative, with references and all. Debate the topic, stop debating me.

I accurately pointed out that there are hundreds of female Hamlet performances that do call on the source work and don't otherwise change it, except the sex of the main character. And it doesn't damage the work in any way, in fact, it can ennoble it.

Enough with the non sequiters: what opinion did I express that you were responding to?

You finding fault with me mentioning female Hamlets.

[Donut Steel]

I will quote the whole post because this is getting nowhere

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

I apologize for the tone, I was more miffed by the OP, but after 50+ of these inane threads I am at my wits end. This same person opened this thread after another one was shut down because it devolved into insults.

Go read stuff on the internet. Go check out books on narrative. The fact of the matter is that changing Kynes' gender achives the following things:

1. Makes zero negative changes to gameplay
2. Makes half of the human population more willing to play the game
3. Hence it's a purely aesthetic gripe (I am not even accusing anyone of bigotry, I'm saying it's superficial!)

Is it changed from the books? Yes. Does it matter? No, because it's a microscopic change. The game takes place on Arrakis, not on Mars for example, and we harvest Spice, not oil etc.

Also, changing the gender is as OLD as literature and myth. It literally is. And it's a good thing. Why? Because the original work is not affected, it remains in its original form. The changed form is called an interpretation, and whether it is good or bad in general doesn't depend on the sex of the characters but on the quality of the writing (or the quality of the performance in the case of theater or cinema).

For example, Hamlet was female too, and almost 2 centuries ago. Did people ♥♥♥♥♥? Yes. Were the performances still amazing? Yes. Was the source material damaged due to it? No, it was actually honored by it!



Source:

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/28/theater/why-not-a-woman-as-hamlet.html#:~:text=Elizabeth%20Powell%20became%20the%20first,York%20and%20Boston%20in%201851.

Again, from a purely literary, artistic standpoint: this is a non-issue. Especially when it's an adaptation across different mediums. Can a painting be the same as a poem? No. Can it get at it? Yes. Same for books to films, films to books (for example read a screenplay for a movie and see if it's the same), games to books, books to games... Take the Witcher games. Are they 100% accurate to the lore? No. Are they good games? Yes.

I believe I made my point. If someone gives me a compelling argument as to why the change is harmful, except for "well their sex is different in the book!" I'll consider it. Otherwise, this is just stubbornness for stubbornness sake.

Please reiterate what opinion I have expressed that your post here is addressing.

[DuX1112]

If this lack of rational arguments continues, in the end only bigotry will remain. Or, barring that, just sheer stubborn stupidity.

[DuX1112]

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

I will quote the whole post because this is getting nowhere

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

Please reiterate what opinion I have expressed that your post here is addressing.

I am clearly responding to your complaint that I'm talking "at you", and then I continue discussing the topic in general. This isn't complicated, but you're pretending it is, just to avoid admitting that I basically destroyed the entire "changing a character's sex is bad!" argument.

[Donut Steel]

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

If this lack of rational arguments continues, in the end only bigotry will remain. Or, barring that, just sheer stubborn stupidity.

People inventing opinions for me, or making long posts responding to opinions I don't have and have never expressed, are not making rational arguments or discussion.

Edit: "changing a character's sex is bad!" is not my argument or the OP's. Stop pretending that it is.

[Athynius]

This entire thread is irrelevant as Kynes dies in the first half of the book (I don't care if its a spoiler btw). So whether or not you like the change is absolutely irrelevant when the character isn't even part of 90% of the book. Not to mention the devs never expressly specified that the game is 1:1 of the novel. They just stated that the game is inspired by the novel 'over' the other media formats. Meaning they are going to design 'their' game around the stylizing of the novel as best they can 'over' any of the movies or mini series.

As I have said many times since the latest movie came out, I was upset about the change at first. Then realized it had no significant impact and the only real issue is that they made her too young. Kynes is a planetologist who has decades of experience from many different worlds, so the fact that she is young is what conflicts with the lore. EVEN THEN it doesn't matter because Kynes is dead and literally mentioned in passing maybe once or twice in the following novels.

The 'impact' of Kynes was just inspiring the Fremens to want a paradise planet. Any person or gender could have and can do that.

Like its hilarious to think that the main protagonist could have just as easily been a women as well. Paul's character is two dimensional but the message and implications of the character is complex. Paul in the novels has little to no personality and is even further removed from being unique after the he drinks the water of life. Once he becomes the 'Messiah' he becomes a pawn in the prescience and nothing more. Every decision he makes is not of his choosing. So you swap out Paul for Paulette and literally nothing changes to the story.

Now saying that, what does change is the feeling and aesthetic of the world. Which is all up to personal interpenetration anyways. If you don't like the aesthetic change to the world from Liet being a women then that sucks and I feel for you. You can be upset and disagree with this change but in the end you cannot dictate was is right or wrong. All forms of media are inventions of the mind, this isn't science and everything is facts.

Stories, lore and world building are abstract concepts which by its nature is in constant change.

All this negativity is not going to change the developers minds about Liet Kynes. So if you don't like it then this wasn't made for you, not to mention that majority of the people having and issue with the change are also the once that want this to be "Dune 2000". Again, this game was not meant for you, you are not the players this was intended for.

To put your minds at ease, I'm sure somewhere down the line after or even during the early access someone will mod the game and change the portrait to 'male Liet Kynes'. So just chill out and wait till then or move one.

The reason I'm taking this stance is because complaining about this and that its not 'my Dune from back in the day' is not helpful or constructive and just floods the forums drowning out real posts with substance.

[DuX1112]

Here let me quote myself actually because I feel this was quite informative. Feel free to respond to this, if sharing the same arguments in a reply to you is somehow magically a problem.

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

I apologize for the tone, I was more miffed by the OP, but after 50+ of these inane threads I am at my wits end. This same person opened this thread after another one was shut down because it devolved into insults.

Go read stuff on the internet. Go check out books on narrative. The fact of the matter is that changing Kynes' gender achives the following things:

1. Makes zero negative changes to gameplay
2. Makes half of the human population more willing to play the game
3. Hence it's a purely aesthetic gripe (I am not even accusing anyone of bigotry, I'm saying it's superficial!)

Is it changed from the books? Yes. Does it matter? No, because it's a microscopic change. The game takes place on Arrakis, not on Mars for example, and we harvest Spice, not oil etc.

Also, changing the gender is as OLD as literature and myth. It literally is. And it's a good thing. Why? Because the original work is not affected, it remains in its original form. The changed form is called an interpretation, and whether it is good or bad in general doesn't depend on the sex of the characters but on the quality of the writing (or the quality of the performance in the case of theater or cinema).

For example, Hamlet was female too, and almost 2 centuries ago. Did people ♥♥♥♥♥? Yes. Were the performances still amazing? Yes. Was the source material damaged due to it? No, it was actually honored by it!

By 1775 the young Sarah Siddons was winning critical praise for her portrayal of Hamlet in the provinces; she continued to play the role until she was 47 years old. Elizabeth Powell became the first woman to play Hamlet in London at the Drury Lane in 1796. And in 1820 Sarah Bartley became the first female Hamlet in America at the Park Theater in New York.

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One of the 19th century's noted Hamlets was Charlotte Cushman, who played Hamlet in New York and Boston in 1851. She repeated the role in Boston 10 years later, using Edwin Booth's costume, which he had loaned to her.

Booth himself wrote in 1882, ''I have always endeavored to make prominent the femininity of Hamlet's character and therein lies the secret of my success - I think. I doubt if ever a robust and masculine treatment of the character will be accepted so generally as the more womanly and refined interpretation. I know that frequently I fall into effeminacy, but we can't always hit the proper keynote.''

At the turn of the century Sarah Bernhardt took an even stronger view on the subject of Hamlet's sexual identity. ''I cannot see Hamlet as a man,'' said Miss Bernhardt, who played the prince in Paris in 1899 and in London and the United States in 1900. ''The things he says, his impulses, his actions, entirely indicate to me that he was a woman.''

Many observers have perceived age as a critical issue in relation to the gender of any actor playing Hamlet. ''If you look upon Hamlet as a mature man, then I don't think he should be played by a woman,'' said Eva LeGallienne, who played Hamlet in 1937 in a production she also directed. ''But I think psychologically one feels Hamlet was a youth ... He's still going to Wittenberg, to college, you know. He can't be a mature man. The whole thing points to a very young youth, and therefore because a boy of that age might not be technically equipped to play the role, this is why many women in their thirties who can look like a youth, and had the technical skills to play this great role, have played it.''

Female Hamlets have won praise from a wide range of critics over the years. Remarking upon Kitty Clive's interpretation in the 18th century, Dr. Samuel Johnson compared her work to that of the leading actor David Garrick. ''Mrs. Clive was the best player I ever saw,'' he noted. ''What Clive did best, she did better than Garrick.'' (cont.)

Source:

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/28/theater/why-not-a-woman-as-hamlet.html#:~:text=Elizabeth%20Powell%20became%20the%20first,York%20and%20Boston%20in%201851.

Again, from a purely literary, artistic standpoint: this is a non-issue. Especially when it's an adaptation across different mediums. Can a painting be the same as a poem? No. Can it get at it? Yes. Same for books to films, films to books (for example read a screenplay for a movie and see if it's the same), games to books, books to games... Take the Witcher games. Are they 100% accurate to the lore? No. Are they good games? Yes.

I believe I made my point. If someone gives me a compelling argument as to why the change is harmful, except for "well their sex is different in the book!" I'll consider it. Otherwise, this is just stubbornness for stubbornness sake.

[DuX1112]

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

If this lack of rational arguments continues, in the end only bigotry will remain. Or, barring that, just sheer stubborn stupidity.

People inventing opinions for me, or making long posts responding to opinions I don't have and have never expressed, are not making rational arguments or discussion.

Edit: "changing a character's sex is bad!" is not my argument or the OP's. Stop pretending that it is.

But I never said it's your argument to begin with, lol. I clearly said I was discussing the topic.

[Donut Steel]

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

Here let me quote myself actually because I feel this was quite informative. Feel free to respond to this, if sharing the same arguments in a reply to you is somehow magically a problem.

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

I apologize for the tone, I was more miffed by the OP, but after 50+ of these inane threads I am at my wits end. This same person opened this thread after another one was shut down because it devolved into insults.

Go read stuff on the internet. Go check out books on narrative. The fact of the matter is that changing Kynes' gender achives the following things:

1. Makes zero negative changes to gameplay
2. Makes half of the human population more willing to play the game
3. Hence it's a purely aesthetic gripe (I am not even accusing anyone of bigotry, I'm saying it's superficial!)

Is it changed from the books? Yes. Does it matter? No, because it's a microscopic change. The game takes place on Arrakis, not on Mars for example, and we harvest Spice, not oil etc.

Also, changing the gender is as OLD as literature and myth. It literally is. And it's a good thing. Why? Because the original work is not affected, it remains in its original form. The changed form is called an interpretation, and whether it is good or bad in general doesn't depend on the sex of the characters but on the quality of the writing (or the quality of the performance in the case of theater or cinema).

For example, Hamlet was female too, and almost 2 centuries ago. Did people ♥♥♥♥♥? Yes. Were the performances still amazing? Yes. Was the source material damaged due to it? No, it was actually honored by it!



Source:

https://www.nytimes.com/1982/11/28/theater/why-not-a-woman-as-hamlet.html#:~:text=Elizabeth%20Powell%20became%20the%20first,York%20and%20Boston%20in%201851.

Again, from a purely literary, artistic standpoint: this is a non-issue. Especially when it's an adaptation across different mediums. Can a painting be the same as a poem? No. Can it get at it? Yes. Same for books to films, films to books (for example read a screenplay for a movie and see if it's the same), games to books, books to games... Take the Witcher games. Are they 100% accurate to the lore? No. Are they good games? Yes.

I believe I made my point. If someone gives me a compelling argument as to why the change is harmful, except for "well their sex is different in the book!" I'll consider it. Otherwise, this is just stubbornness for stubbornness sake.

My response remains that this a complete non sequiter; responding to a viewpoint or set of arguments that have not been made in this thread, but are based entirely on assumptions made blanketly about any criticism of the *marketing-led business decision that has nothing to do with artistic license* made by WB Studios and Shiro Games.

People really acting like their defence of a soulless corporate entity is really upholding of progressive values and artistic freedom, when it's the opposite.

[Donut Steel]

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

People inventing opinions for me, or making long posts responding to opinions I don't have and have never expressed, are not making rational arguments or discussion.

Edit: "changing a character's sex is bad!" is not my argument or the OP's. Stop pretending that it is.

But I never said it's your argument to begin with, lol. I clearly said I was discussing the topic.

No, you were derailing the topic and have been very consistent about that.

[Spicy Grasshopper]

Bengis eredeti hozzászólása:

DuX1112 eredeti hozzászólása:

But I never said it's your argument to begin with, lol. I clearly said I was discussing the topic.

No, you were derailing the topic and have been very consistent about that.

They are indeed trying to get the thread locked and have been repeatedly.

The fact is I have called out every inaccuracy they have demonstrated and said they should all be corrected.

[IonizedMercury]

Gekkeau eredeti hozzászólása:

This entire thread is irrelevant as Kynes dies in the first half of the book (I don't care if its a spoiler btw). So whether or not you like the change is absolutely irrelevant when the character isn't even part of 90% of the book. Not to mention the devs never expressly specified that the game is 1:1 of the novel. They just stated that the game is inspired by the novel 'over' the other media formats. Meaning they are going to design 'their' game around the stylizing of the novel as best they can 'over' any of the movies or mini series.

As I have said many times since the latest movie came out, I was upset about the change at first. Then realized it had no significant impact and the only real issue is that they made her too young. Kynes is a planetologist who has decades of experience from many different worlds, so the fact that she is young is what conflicts with the lore. EVEN THEN it doesn't matter because Kynes is dead and literally mentioned in passing maybe once or twice in the following novels.

The 'impact' of Kynes was just inspiring the Fremens to want a paradise planet. Any person or gender could have and can do that.

Like its hilarious to think that the main protagonist could have just as easily been a women as well. Paul's character is two dimensional but the message and implications of the character is complex. Paul in the novels has little to no personality and is even further removed from being unique after the he drinks the water of life. Once he becomes the 'Messiah' he becomes a pawn in the prescience and nothing more. Every decision he makes is not of his choosing. So you swap out Paul for Paulette and literally nothing changes to the story.

Now saying that, what does change is the feeling and aesthetic of the world. Which is all up to personal interpenetration anyways. If you don't like the aesthetic change to the world from Liet being a women then that sucks and I feel for you. You can be upset and disagree with this change but in the end you cannot dictate was is right or wrong. All forms of media are inventions of the mind, this isn't science and everything is facts.

Stories, lore and world building are abstract concepts which by its nature is in constant change.

All this negativity is not going to change the developers minds about Liet Kynes. So if you don't like it then this wasn't made for you, not to mention that majority of the people having and issue with the change are also the once that want this to be "Dune 2000". Again, this game was not meant for you, you are not the players this was intended for.

To put your minds at ease, I'm sure somewhere down the line after or even during the early access someone will mod the game and change the portrait to 'male Liet Kynes'. So just chill out and wait till then or move one.

The reason I'm taking this stance is because complaining about this and that its not 'my Dune from back in the day' is not helpful or constructive and just floods the forums drowning out real posts with substance.

Turning Paul into Paula or Paulette would actually require a whole lot of changes to the setting to fit, you'd basically have to also gender-swap his parents and the Bene Gesserit as a whole. Paul's gender is a plot-point in the novel, unlike Kynes'. The Kwisatz Haderach has to be the opposite gender of the Bene Gesserit since breeding such a person has been the goal of their program. If Paul becomes a girl, the Bene Gesserit become monks. And as a result you also have to swap the Spacing Guild's preferred gender since they are meant to be the polar opposites of the Bene Gesserit.
I mean you can of course just ditch all of this baggage and make Paul a girl without changing anything else, but it would actually be a fairly hefty deviation from the source in this particular case.

[Jeffer'son Airship]

HenloPeeps eredeti hozzászólása:

They are indeed trying to get the thread locked and have been repeatedly.

The fact is I have called out every inaccuracy they have demonstrated and said they should all be corrected.

If the thread gets locked, it'll be due to your insistence on attacking anyone who slightly disagrees with you.

[Donut Steel]

Changing Paul's gender would be more significant than changing Liet-Kynes.

Where I disagree is that Liet-Kynes is not significant at all. When Paul meets Chani, his safety has already been paid with her father's life; the consequence of his duel could be that it was all for nothing if he loses. Fremen culture requires him to be responsible for the family of the man he vanquished, whilst he also owes a debt to Liet-Kynes that changes if Liet is now a woman.

You can make arguments that Kynes was only half Fremen and a female version being accepted whilst they are a known servant of the emperor would have to accept the responsibilities and standing of a man, with robust world-building reasons for why coming from an inspired writer and not a hack doing a checklist.

But as I've argued before(and people keep deliberately missing this): that isn't what Villeneuvre's film did, it isn't what the Warner Bros marketing machine did, and it isn't what Shiro Games did when they opted to give the crass explanation for copying this non-creative decision that they did.