Kynes being a woman @devs and anyone who still doesnt get it

[Spicy Grasshopper]

So I went away, opened one of the books I own on design principle.
Found the chapter I wanted and now I can share it with everyone here- in particular the devs.
I'd recommend reading the whole chapter, but for educational purposes on narrative design and choice I am going to pull a couple of parts.

"Chapter 10
Don't have things happen for no reason

...
Because fiction is make-believe, it has to be *more logical* than real life if it is to be believed. In real life, things may occur for no apparent reason. But in fiction you the writer simply cannot ever afford to lose sight of logic and let things happen for no apparent reason.
To make your stories logical, and therefore believable, you work always to make sure there is always a reason for what happens.
For one thing, you always provide characters with the right background- upbringing, experience, information- to motivate them generally in the direction of the action you want to show them taking.
A character, if she is to act with seeming reason, must come from a personal background that qualifies her to accomplish your plot action. You must set things up so that her general background- family, upbringing, education, health, whatever- make it seem reasonable that she would act as you want her to act in the story.
As an extreme example here, let's say you want your character to preach a sermon some Sunday in a southern baptist church, citing the life of Christ as the perfect type to emulate. Only a slow thinker would fail to put *something* in the story earlier to show how the character was either brought up in a Christian home, or went through a religious conversion to Christianity. Thus the general background must be given, or else the characters actions may seem to come from no logical origin.
Following the same example a step further, remember that the general background may not be enough. Your readers will also want to know the more recent event or events that have given your character to do what she is doing right now. Thus, in the example cited, you might have the Christian woman's minister husband fall suddenly ill, which prompts her, in desperation, to fill in for him after the congregation has already assembled.
...
A great many stories tend to be unbelievable because the writer just shoved a character onstage to do something without thinking through how and why the character got there.
You must constantly examine your story logic to make sure you have not inadvertently committed the same error."

The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes (and how to avoid them), written by J. Bingham (1992).


If you still don't get it or think gender bending and race bending "just works" 1) you aren't a designer. 2) you aren't a writer. 3) you do piss on Frank Herbert- because you are ignoring his design choices. 4) this game will be dead in a few months.

[NED STARK]

The devs have not written anything but they are well read/researched on Dune which is why it's kind of shocking that they would make the decision when they have been so true to everything else. It probably got them some kind of diversity funding. Also there is no debating or convincing these people. You are bad for not liking it. Period. That's how it will always be viewed. Think about it though, something so simple as the portrait of a character is so distracting that it hurt their sales. If they just gave us a male Liet it wouldn't be a problem and there would be more relevant criticism. The fact is, it's distracting to a lot of people. Immersion is important, especially with an adaptation of one of the most popular science fiction novels.

[Onlysane1]

Obviously this game is tailored as much for the casual fans of the movie as it is for the hardcore fans of the books. Basing Liet Kynes on the movie persona keeps the movie fans from scratching their heads as who the heck this dude is and why it's not the chick from the movie, while book fans likely saw the movie as well so they already know what's going on.

[Spicy Grasshopper]

Originally posted by NED STARK:

The devs have not written anything but they are well read/researched on Dune which is why it's kind of shocking that they would make the decision when they have been so true to everything else. It probably got them some kind of diversity funding. Also there is no debating or convincing these people. You are bad for not liking it. Period. That's how it will always be viewed. Think about it though, something so simple as the portrait of a character is so distracting that it hurt their sales. If they just gave us a male Liet it wouldn't be a problem and there would be more relevant criticism. The fact is, it's distracting to a lot of people. Immersion is important, especially with an adaptation of one of the most popular science fiction novels.

The thing is and this is what people miss- I dont have an issue with female Liet.
I have an issue with them saying "Frank Herberts Dune- here is female Liet" after they said in their news pieces they went with green and black for Atreides for "Lore reasons" then they ignored lore for Harks colours and for Liet as a character.

I'd have been fine with them adding a movie tie in DLC for art, leaders, and potentially characters down the line- but not as an initial release.

It's like what Amazon is doing to LoTR or what Ubi is doing to the Tom Clancy name- and its ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ horrible in both counts that great works of literature created by amazing individuals are being ruined by morons hiding behind "Artistic Freedom" whilst using the respective names of the authors to sell their ♥♥♥♥♥♥ products...


Like I've said in many other posts, if they weren't planning to sell and run there is loads of potential for them to create side characters further down the timeline to fit in as well.

[Gaz]

I cannot believe we keep having to deal with idiots who rant like this. What do you hope to achieve? Do you really think they will change it? All you do is expose yourself as terrible human beings.

[Citronvand]

Originally posted by HenloPeeps:

snip

I agree, but to try and make everyone happy, why not add a feature for alternative leaders. Like Paul instead of Leto for Atredies. That way they could add the proper Liet Kynes while still retaining the movie Liet Kynes as an option for players.

This would also make it possible to have multiple of the same faction which is probably something we want when multiplayer drops.

I'd also want something similar that adds the proper colors for the factions, like the Harkonnen.

I'm even ok if it becomes a DLC as long as it is reasonable.

[Angry Obnoxious Goose]

Originally posted by Citronvand:

Originally posted by HenloPeeps:

snip

I agree, but to try and make everyone happy, why not add a feature for alternative leaders. Like Paul instead of Leto for Atredies. That way they could add the proper Liet Kynes while still retaining the movie Liet Kynes as an option for players.

This would also make it possible to have multiple of the same faction which is probably something we want when multiplayer drops.

I'd also want something similar that adds the proper colors for the factions, like the Harkonnen.

I'm even ok if it becomes a DLC as long as it is reasonable.

That's actually be kind of cool, made in Max von Sidal or whatever he name was' image as well? cool, cuz movie represensation visual?

[Donut Steel]

Originally posted by Gaz:

I cannot believe we keep having to deal with idiots who rant like this. What do you hope to achieve? Do you really think they will change it? All you do is expose yourself as terrible human beings.

Wanting A to equal A makes people terrible human beings.

[Dee-Jay]

Originally posted by HenloPeeps:

So I went away, opened one of the books I own on design principle.
Found the chapter I wanted and now I can share it with everyone here- in particular the devs.
I'd recommend reading the whole chapter, but for educational purposes on narrative design and choice I am going to pull a couple of parts.

"Chapter 10
Don't have things happen for no reason

...
Because fiction is make-believe, it has to be *more logical* than real life if it is to be believed. In real life, things may occur for no apparent reason. But in fiction you the writer simply cannot ever afford to lose sight of logic and let things happen for no apparent reason.
To make your stories logical, and therefore believable, you work always to make sure there is always a reason for what happens.
For one thing, you always provide characters with the right background- upbringing, experience, information- to motivate them generally in the direction of the action you want to show them taking.
A character, if she is to act with seeming reason, must come from a personal background that qualifies her to accomplish your plot action. You must set things up so that her general background- family, upbringing, education, health, whatever- make it seem reasonable that she would act as you want her to act in the story.
As an extreme example here, let's say you want your character to preach a sermon some Sunday in a southern baptist church, citing the life of Christ as the perfect type to emulate. Only a slow thinker would fail to put *something* in the story earlier to show how the character was either brought up in a Christian home, or went through a religious conversion to Christianity. Thus the general background must be given, or else the characters actions may seem to come from no logical origin.
Following the same example a step further, remember that the general background may not be enough. Your readers will also want to know the more recent event or events that have given your character to do what she is doing right now. Thus, in the example cited, you might have the Christian woman's minister husband fall suddenly ill, which prompts her, in desperation, to fill in for him after the congregation has already assembled.
...
A great many stories tend to be unbelievable because the writer just shoved a character onstage to do something without thinking through how and why the character got there.
You must constantly examine your story logic to make sure you have not inadvertently committed the same error."

The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes (and how to avoid them), written by J. Bingham (1992).


If you still don't get it or think gender bending and race bending "just works" 1) you aren't a designer. 2) you aren't a writer. 3) you do piss on Frank Herbert- because you are ignoring his design choices. 4) this game will be dead in a few months.

This topic is so boring now. Lay it to rest.

[Spicy Grasshopper]

Originally posted by Citronvand:

I agree, but to try and make everyone happy, why not add a feature for alternative leaders. Like Paul instead of Leto for Atredies. That way they could add the proper Liet Kynes while still retaining the movie Liet Kynes as an option for players.

This would also make it possible to have double faction which is probably something we want when multiplayer drops.

I'd also want something similar that adds the proper colors for the factions, like the Harkonnen.

I'm even ok if it becomes a DLC as long as it is reasonable.

I think I already said this is in another topic.
I'd be fine for them to make the character portrait swappable.
I don't think bending established characters is appropriate (in fact its wholly disgusting to treat the original author with that contempt if you are trying to give their story life).
But
It is ok to make an original character that fits the worlds established order (and law, custom, religion, doctrine, etc).

So liet needs to be a man again.
BUT
If you can show that there was significant female leaders in command positions of whatever faction- then yea go for it.
I don't think theres many at this point of the timeline but if the devs were building the game to last and for them to continually support they'd fix the lore mistakes now, and then further down the line of the game they would release new content that would fit with the books- which means we would 100% see more females in charge, taking the reins, and leading.


Now I suggested a whole bunch of things in another topic to fix the game (That are doable from a design perspective) but I think its buried like 10 pages back now.

In another topic I even suggested the bene gesserit- which would definitely allow for some unique mechanics and ideas to play in game, you could see this faction playing out more in line with Crusader Kings, trying to marry off daughters to the other factions, or you could bring in the Honored Matres...


the point is- if they read the books, there are options available.

[Angry Obnoxious Goose]

Originally posted by HenloPeeps:

Originally posted by Citronvand:

I agree, but to try and make everyone happy, why not add a feature for alternative leaders. Like Paul instead of Leto for Atredies. That way they could add the proper Liet Kynes while still retaining the movie Liet Kynes as an option for players.

This would also make it possible to have double faction which is probably something we want when multiplayer drops.

I'd also want something similar that adds the proper colors for the factions, like the Harkonnen.

I'm even ok if it becomes a DLC as long as it is reasonable.

I think I already said this is in another topic.
I'd be fine for them to make the character portrait swappable.
I don't think bending established characters is appropriate (in fact its wholly disgusting to treat the original author with that contempt if you are trying to give their story life).
But
It is ok to make an original character that fits the worlds established order (and law, custom, religion, doctrine, etc).

So liet needs to be a man again.
BUT
If you can show that there was significant female leaders in command positions of whatever faction- then yea go for it.
I don't think theres many at this point of the timeline but if the devs were building the game to last and for them to continually support they'd fix the lore mistakes now, and then further down the line of the game they would release new content that would fit with the books- which means we would 100% see more females in charge, taking the reins, and leading.


Now I suggested a whole bunch of things in another topic to fix the game (That are doable from a design perspective) but I think its buried like 10 pages back now.

In another topic I even suggested the bene gesserit- which would definitely allow for some unique mechanics and ideas to play in game, you could see this faction playing out more in line with Crusader Kings, trying to marry off daughters to the other factions, or you could bring in the Honored Matres...


the point is- if they read the books, there are options available.

So this means every version of romeo and juliet is made by satan cuz they dared to change the original in any way, shape or form?
Gnomeo and Juliet? HOW DARE THEY MAKE IT ABOUT GARDEN GNOMES!? <-- that's the level of anger you have right now for something as basic as a singular less-than-overly-important side character's superficial change of gender and skin color.

Also remember we are talking about a book series that was written back in 1965 by a man botn a little over 100 years ago... so no matter his progressiveness he'd still be limited to his imagination based around his surroundings and era of time he lived in.
Modern Sci Fis aren't really written with a lot of gender-specific concepts, usually cuz 'it is the future some 1000+ or more years ahead of current irl time, so why would anything like gender, race, etc. be a thing when we have space ships, aliens trying to kill us or grow up on a planet so deadly that a basic item like WATER makes the average person's worth be weighed against their body's water in value.

I will fully agree with you if the Baron was suddenly some big-tiddy strong-woman with that 'maneater' look to the eyes, or if Duke Atreides was suddenly gay for no rhyme or reason, or Genderfluid or whatnot.
But no, it's a side character getting a gender update and what looks like a skin color update since a 60-year old book was written about it.... the character is still in essence the same, just woman instead of man. Not improved over man-kynes, or worsened.

[Tenshin51]

Just look at their FAQ about the development of the game. They changed the character gender to be modern.

According to devs
"We feel the gender repartition in an otherwise very modern book is an artefact of when it was written. Liet is one of the most modern characters in the books (with messages about the preciousness of resources, building a sustainable planet with local communities...) and modernising the messenger only makes the message more powerful.
Obviously, we love the book and the characterisation of Liet therein, but we also enjoyed the portrayal within the recent movie and how it reimagined the character, and this was something we thought could be an interesting approach to take in Spice Wars."

sources: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1605220/discussions/0/3191363817365952215/

Isn't the character is the father of Chani Kynes? Who will play an important role later on the story. There are bunch of female characters in the books that will play a huge part in the story. Not quite sure why they change the gender. Fatherhood is not modern anymore.

Devs could add a DLC faction leader for each faction in the game.

[Angry Obnoxious Goose]

Originally posted by Tenshin51:

Just look at their FAQ about the development of the game. They changed the character gender to be modern.

According to devs
"We feel the gender repartition in an otherwise very modern book is an artefact of when it was written. Liet is one of the most modern characters in the books (with messages about the preciousness of resources, building a sustainable planet with local communities...) and modernising the messenger only makes the message more powerful.
Obviously, we love the book and the characterisation of Liet therein, but we also enjoyed the portrayal within the recent movie and how it reimagined the character, and this was something we thought could be an interesting approach to take in Spice Wars."

sources: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1605220/discussions/0/3191363817365952215/

Isn't the character is the father of Chani Kynes? Who will play an important role later on the story. There are bunch of female characters in the books that will play a huge part in the story. Not quite why change it.

Devs could add a DLC faction leader for each faction in the game.

So that just means Kynes is now the Mother of Chani.
That's the only difference. WIll be the Grandmother of Leto II rather than Grandfather.
still the same essential character.

[CeeRo]

I really don't get why this is such a big deal to people. I can't think of any subject where something similar would upset me so much.

I guess the closest I can think of is people calling EDM techno, that grinds my gears

[Rachel Wulf]

Originally posted by Citronvand:

Originally posted by HenloPeeps:

snip

I agree, but to try and make everyone happy, why not add a feature for alternative leaders. Like Paul instead of Leto for Atredies. That way they could add the proper Liet Kynes while still retaining the movie Liet Kynes as an option for players.

This would also make it possible to have multiple of the same faction which is probably something we want when multiplayer drops.

I'd also want something similar that adds the proper colors for the factions, like the Harkonnen.

I'm even ok if it becomes a DLC as long as it is reasonable.

Honestly, i think that's the best idea i've seen out of any of these topics. You could even, perhaps, have each leader get SLIGHTLY different buffs. like, all in line with how the faction is MEANT to be played, but offering a little bit of Variety, like the Councilors.

[moonlightavenger]

I'm frustrated over this change, but in a different way. I see it as an attempt to please a crowd that doesn't deserve to be pleased. I'm not talking about representation, I'm talking about appeal.

The only reason I can see they would change a character's gender is to please a crowd that is constantly crying over representation. First of all, the books have some important women characters, one of them being one of the most important character in the entire franchise, but they feel the need to take one random character and make them a woman. It changes nothing in the game. It improves it in no way whatsoever, but they have to do it or the devs would come under attack... Just the same they are now, but it would be worse because the general public would be agreeing.

Here's an example: Nick Fury. The original character in the comics was white, but did I care that they chose a black actor to play him in the MCU? Not at all, because Samuel L Jackson's performance as Nick Fury made him one of my favorite characters in the MCU, even over the original.

Now here is a thought experiement.... What would have happened had the devs changed Jessica into a white dude? Disregarding the Duke's gender and considering all the lore about the Bene Gesserit. Or yet, how about making Vladmir a disgusting fat Vladmila?

Hypocrisy is the problem.