Lynch > Villeneuve

[Catbeard Beardcat]

Facts: The Lynch movie was way better than the ( really good ) Villeneuve adapation.
Thanks for yor attention. The Spice must flow!

[Rongkong Coma]

The Villneuve movie is ... so so.
sometimes very good (Ornithopters are absolute famous) and sometimes the styling is booring and not that great like the ideas and styling in the Bladerunner movie was.

All over the Lynch movie was and is way more stylish and the actors were and are better for its time in the 80s and much more interresting than the Villneuve movie is in these times.
Also when you see what each movie costs.

The problem with the Villneuve Movie is that it does not tell things to the people.
If you did not read the books or do not know anything about Dune you do not understand the whole movie.
If you watch the Lynch movie and you know nothing about Dune you understand everything.
Because of the thoughts you hear from the people in the movie.

It is like always ... the bookworms always hate movies most times.
No movie can catch a book in its entire content.
Best example ... Jurassic Park and Species and Hannibal and so on.

And to it the taste counts.
Also younger people do like new movies much more than old movies.
Generation-Problem.

Also the music was more famous in the lynch movie ... TOTO.
Was there any music in the Villneuve thing?
Nothing I remeber about at least.

[Jeffer'son Airship]

Originalmente postado por widespreadpanick:

They both have merits, but you can't really judge the Villeneuve until we get part 2, imo.

Still, would've liked to have seen a Navigator and that whole process. Maybe we see the Guild in pt 2.

I will say the characters in Villeneuve feel a LOT more human. Biggest problem with Lynch's (which is surprising for him) is how horribly cliche every character feels, especially Paul. And to be honest, I don't think any editing or extended cut would fix that, it's just kind of how the movie was made.

Yeah this. Villeneuve did the characters far better, but I will say the visuals of the Lynch version are extremely creative and more alien.

The one thing I feel Villeneuve was weaker on was some of the design choices. The nobles didn't really sell the ridiculously opulent life they're supposed to have. They're supposed to be very extravagant and colorful like medieval nobles with high technology.

[Blackdragon]

Originalmente postado por widespreadpanick:

They both have merits, but you can't really judge the Villeneuve until we get part 2, imo.

Still, would've liked to have seen a Navigator and that whole process. Maybe we see the Guild in pt 2.

Villeneuve discarded so much book content, his movie ended up empty. He could have shown the Navigators. He could have shown the Imperial Court, and introduced its characters. He could have shown the Harkonnens in all their glory, and not the pathetic, discount bin "generic white male villains" version.

Actually, the fact that he elected not to include Princess Irulan - a beautiful, strong and ambitious woman - shows that gender-swapping Kynes was not really dictated by a need to fulfil some "gender quota". Apparently, the gender- (and probably race-)swapping was an end to itself.

Originalmente postado por widespreadpanick:

I will say the characters in Villeneuve feel a LOT more human. Biggest problem with Lynch's (which is surprising for him) is how horribly cliche every character feels, especially Paul.

Don't see how Lynch's Paul is "cliche", unless of course you believe any heroic archetype to be automatically "cliche". In any case, Chamalet's teen angst is just as cliche, if not more. And, barring few exceptions, the other characters are just walking cliches (Jason Momoa basically plays himself; the entire Harkonnen faction feels like a bunch of faceless mooks headed by a Colonel Kurtz expy, with nothing approaching the screen presence of Kenneth McMillan, Brad Dourif or Sting; the Fremen look more like a bunch of street thugs than the noble tribesmen they are supposed to be; Chamalet and Zendaya interact like a couple of American teens, etc.). Josh Brolin and Rebecca Ferguson do a decent job, but that's about it.

Conversely, Lynch's characters are extremely charismatic and the actors give truly inspired performances. In a 1-to-1 comparison, they generally mog the Villeneuve crew with their acting chops and screen presence.

Of course, the 1984 film is far from perfect and suffered from a lot of issues; we may never know how good it might have ended up if Lynch was given the resources and the runtime Villeneuve is allowed to play with.

[Qau'lthir]

Originalmente postado por F A B L E D:

Yes, but most of the praise came after Herbert had seen the rough cut. David Lynch didn't have final cut on dune, so the producers changed a lot before it released. Which Resulted in Lynch becoming so displeased with the film he demanded they take his name of it, and replace his name with Alan Smithee. To this day, Dune is the only film he has made which he doesn't want to be associated with, he hates the film.

Herbert was not as happy about the version that was released in cinemas.

That doesn't change the fact that a lot of the concepts hipster wankers in this thread are talking smack about were given a big 'ol thumbs up from Herbert himself, though.

[Dark]

Originalmente postado por quaker2:

The Lynch one was so incomprehensible they had to give out pamphlets to the people so they understand what's going on

Thats not exactly true, I went to the original showing of Dune. They gave those out so those who had no idea about Dune or the terminology could at least have some understanding of what was going on. The movie was very complex for its day and the books are brilliant.

But its people and their lack of understanding that was what failed. Not the movie. I love the original, especially the extended version. The new movie left me feeling flat. The acting was sub par. Visually it was incredible. Thats mostly all it has going for it.

But I still prefer the original Dunes Visuals, it just felt more alien and darker and grander. Especially the Worm chase scene with Paul and his mother and how dark the mountain looked and the Freemen they run into. Over all Original Dune is better.

Long live the fighters!!

[Blitzwing]

The part with Dr. Yueh never did make sense to me, dealing with Harkonnen is worse than dealing with the devil, they will always betray and backstab you. Kill the Baron would also not make House Harkonnen weaker, considering they did wipe out Atreides and Baron would be replaced by his much more competent nephew Feyd-Rautha.

The only logical explanation would have been a replacement by a ghola, but yeah this would have been way too lore logical.

[Lobuno]

The Villeneuve adapation is crap, both as a Dune adaptation and ALSO as a film.

[Rongkong Coma]

And the actor as Paul Atreides was crap.
Look at this amazing actor I have found on the net:

https://youtu.be/EHK5fBm1YWk

With him the movie would be great. :-D

[Spooky]

Originalmente postado por Blitzwing:

The part with Dr. Yueh never did make sense to me,

His part and history is chopped in both movies. There is still a "theory" about, if this Yueh is a Ghola or the Original one. It is not simple: ".. they captured his wife and forced him to do it." When he is a Ghola and trained by the Imperium and de Vries tried to break his imperial conditions to get the truth. The plot condensed .. ;)

inb4
Why are Bene Tleilax involved?
What is a Ghola and what they are used for?
etc.

You have to read the books to get "the full view" over the centuries in timeline, essential in Space Operas.

[Shadow]

and those 2 mini series was better than these two movies :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0QLnl33cB8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVOpazpgi8M

[Blackdragon]

Originalmente postado por Spooky:

Originalmente postado por Blitzwing:

The part with Dr. Yueh never did make sense to me,

His part and history is chopped in both movies. There is still a "theory" about, if this Yueh is a Ghola or the Original one. It is not simple: ".. they captured his wife and forced him to do it." When he is a Ghola and trained by the Imperium and de Vries tried to break his imperial conditions to get the truth. The plot condensed .. ;)

inb4
Why are Bene Tleilax involved?
What is a Ghola and what they are used for?
etc.

You have to read the books to get "the full view" over the centuries in timeline, essential in Space Operas.

Yueh is clearly the original: books are never subtle with naming gholas; the Harkonnens treated him as original, not a ghola; there would not be any need to break Imperial conditioning if he was a ghola; there would not have been any intrigue or mental perturbation; most importantly, if Yueh was a ghola he would have simply done his job without any desire for revenge upon the Baron.

Sure, trauma can make gholas access their pre-ghola memories, but from the narrative standpoint that would simply turn Yueh back into a human, with all the corresponding perceived plot holes intact.

Personally I think it's written pretty clear in the book: Yueh had "unbreakable" conditioning so Atreides trusted him; his conditioning was broken by Harkonnen using his wife as leverage, so he was working for them; he had a "plan B" in case of double-cross - the poison tooth, and he used it on the Duke because the Baron would likely get close to the Duke (to gloat, take the signet ring, whatever), whereas Yueh himself wouldn't be let that close to the Baron. He also had a "Plan C" for Jessica and Paul, preserving the Atreides bloodline in redemption of his betrayal. So it all clicks into place reasonably well.

[Da Killa B]

Originalmente postado por Blackdragon:

Originalmente postado por widespreadpanick:

They both have merits, but you can't really judge the Villeneuve until we get part 2, imo.

Still, would've liked to have seen a Navigator and that whole process. Maybe we see the Guild in pt 2.

Villeneuve discarded so much book content, his movie ended up empty. He could have shown the Navigators. He could have shown the Imperial Court, and introduced its characters. He could have shown the Harkonnens in all their glory, and not the pathetic, discount bin "generic white male villains" version.

Actually, the fact that he elected not to include Princess Irulan - a beautiful, strong and ambitious woman - shows that gender-swapping Kynes was not really dictated by a need to fulfil some "gender quota". Apparently, the gender- (and probably race-)swapping was an end to itself.

Your objections to my post about swapping Kynes came down to a concern that it was faithless to the original novel. I respect that far better than partisan knuckleheads complaining about "CRT" or "wokeness" without having any idea rattling around their brain cages what those terms mean. That said, if filming something true to Herbert is important, why are you suggesting DV show content in Part One that doesn't actually appear until the second half of the book?

We never meet the Emperor, his daughter or his court until he arrives on Arrakis. Same goes for the Navigators--Duke Leto warns Paul not to jeopardize shipping privileges by trying to spot a Navigator. The first courtly figures we meet are Count and Lady Fenring at Feyd's duel which occurs more than halfway through the novel.

Dune 2021 does give us an encounter that happens in the backstory of the novel--when Leto meets the Herald and Guild Reps to sign off on the change of the fiefdom. I did find that inclusion curious since it doesn't appear in the book and it eats up running time that could have been spent on more important bits from the book--but I admit I do like the pagentry of it and its a nice way to meet House Atredies. Nice little joke there with Josh Brolin's character of Gurney Halleck (I also love the little nod the movie gives to No Country for Old Men, when Brolin's Gurney and Bardem's Stilgar meet).

Otherwise, flipping Kynes female seems to me to make even more sense since that character takes part in the action of the first half of the book and Irulan does not. Therefore a logical presence to take up the Strong Female mantle in Part One. Irulan is important to the power dynamics--Paul has to marry her at the end to achieve a political victory which is obviously important to his future reign and the fate of the Imperium... but the effect of that isn't seen until Dune Messiah where the Princess gets much more involved in the conflicts of that installment. This is where we really see her ambition. Irulan is invisible for most of the first novel and heard only as commentator until the last section. Heck, the miniseries got her character more involved in "The Arrakis Affair" as the Imperium politely euphamizes, than the novel did.

In my eyes, Dune 2021 adheres much more to the content of the book than Lynch's theatrical cut. What is especially important to me is theme, philosophy, message. Lynch cut nearly all of it away. DV actually tries to play these out. This is where I get off saying things like Kyne's gender really doesn't matter because Herbert's primary message wasn't patriarchy in particular but monarchy in general. He was warning us that power attracts the corruptible, not warning us to watch out for tribes led by father figures. So while it would be sticking to the trees to keep Kynes as a male, it misses the forest. But Lynch, as I keep crediting to him, did a great job cramming the novel into 2 hours and 15 minutes. While there were some hefty misses from Villenueve too.

I am totally onboard with you about the Harkonnens. Pieter in particular was wasted and could have easily been clipped out, he has so little to do in Dune 2021. All they needed was to add two or three minutes of him, and then stay true to the book by having him kill Yueh, and it would be okay. Alas, one is left to hope for an extended cut in ten years.

[Da Killa B]

Originalmente postado por Blackdragon:

Personally I think it's written pretty clear in the book: Yueh had "unbreakable" conditioning so Atreides trusted him; his conditioning was broken by Harkonnen using his wife as leverage, so he was working for them; he had a "plan B" in case of double-cross - the poison tooth, and he used it on the Duke because the Baron would likely get close to the Duke (to gloat, take the signet ring, whatever), whereas Yueh himself wouldn't be let that close to the Baron. He also had a "Plan C" for Jessica and Paul, preserving the Atreides bloodline in redemption of his betrayal. So it all clicks into place reasonably well.

Lynch was faithful on this one in '84. The 2021 movie breaks the rules of the culture by having the Baron get so close to Dr Yueh instead of having Piter handle the traitor for him. One thing I do judge any story by is internal consistency, and the fear of bio implanted assassination weapons is the whole premise behind Yueh's agreement to betray the Atreides--because he reckoned that a drugged and tied Duke Leto was the only way a weapon could be snuck into range of the Baron. Yueh knew his wife was dead--he did what he did to avenge her, an angle that goes along with Herbert's themes about the devotion of husbands and wives. The fact that Villenueve took this away from Piter and the actor is irritating. Aside from Piter, I also wanted to see a little more from Yueh, and the whole bit with sharing his wife's bible with Paul would have been a good one to include from the book.

[Falaris]

I have only read the Frank Herbert books, not the Brian Herbert ones, but that was 30 years ago now, so my memory is a bit sketchy.

David Lynch's film was, in my eyes, a masterpiece, and I don't really get those saying it was impossible to follow. But I was a lot younger then, and I am aware many don't agree. That's okay. How one likes a film is very individual.

Villeneuve's film was epic. While it skipped some subsections of the plot, he really did get the feel of the ones he did show perfectly, in my opinion.

@Da Killa B: The Baron in Lynch's film was TOUCHING the Duke. I think this is rose tinted glasses speaking. The Baron was in Leto's face but survived by floating up to the ceiling.
Video clip: https://youtu.be/ZNSYbSULUxQ?t=195

The relevant bit is at 3:15. Other than that little nitpick I agree with your other points.

@Blackdragon: In either case I'd say that Yueh was planning to kill the Baron regardless, it wasn't a plot 'in case of betrayal'. It was a gun he'd fired long before entering the chamber.

I would have liked to watch the series, though.

That's all.

[glythe]

The latest dune was pretty and had nice music and was a spectacle.

But it really didn't do an improvement in telling the "old" dune movie.

Yes the old movie had some cheesy moments - but this is really a product of when the movie was made. If you watched movies during this time you know.