Dune: Spice Wars

Dune: Spice Wars

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Kamagawa Dec 10, 2021 @ 5:28am
It isn't an RTS
It's annoying that so many things are called RTS these days. It's a grand strategy.
Northguard has no base building and the screenshots for this shows there is no base building in this one.
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Showing 1-15 of 16 comments
rH Dec 10, 2021 @ 5:44am 
Yeah RTS is getting infused with lots of other types of strategy games these days. It makes it harder to actually find authentic RTS games. The wave defence/survival ones are good example.
Shifty Dec 10, 2021 @ 7:04am 
Have you ever played Northgard? It does have base building, just not in the traditional RTS sense. You still build houses and barracks and stuff in real time, you're just restricted to building a certain amount of buildings per tile. I think this game might be similar to Northgard but maybe a bit heavier on the 4X elements.
Mr. Stibbons Dec 10, 2021 @ 7:16am 
What stupid definitions of base building are you using to claim Northgard has no base building. The game is 70% base building.
76561198997001625  [developer] Dec 13, 2021 @ 6:57am 
We wouldn't label it an RTS if there weren't significant RTS traits, systems and features prominent within the game. We're sure the game will be equally enjoyable for RTS players as it is for 4X fans.

We'll have some gameplay to share with you all very soon, bear with us.

James
tudoz Dec 13, 2021 @ 9:39am 
we'll see. played dune 1 & 2 as rts old back around 90'
Stormfrenzy88 Dec 15, 2021 @ 1:25am 
If it's anything like Northgard then it definitely isn't Grand Strategy but RTS. Norhgard has base building though so what are you on about? So in your opinion anything that doesn't follow the classic RTS formula is not called RTS?
Get2daChoppa Dec 16, 2021 @ 3:06pm 
Northgard has base building...
I rather enjoyed Northgard. Although, I wish it had more grand battle war elements, but for what it is... it's fine. Northgard was worked on and updated for years, so hopefully the same happens with Dune and they make a quality game.
eggs Dec 16, 2021 @ 6:38pm 
yep
KobraThor Dec 16, 2021 @ 9:55pm 
I strongly believe these games shouldn't be labeled as Real Time Strategy, because at best it's a technicality and at worst false marketing.

For example, 2 of my favorite RTS games ever, Warcraft 3 and Age of Mythology, have successfully hybridized the genre with light RPG mechanics. They are still RTS games at their core and can be completely enjoyed as such without using the heroes (aka the RPG elements), where as Spice Wars, Terran Command and now even Dark Fate Defiance, are complex at their core with near RTS mechanics.

Grand strategy, 4x, wargames and Real Time Tactics have built so much on the foundation of Real Time Strategy, that it's classic roots are completely overshadowed.

Outside of Age of Empires 4, there is no new, pure, actual RTS out there, even more so in a modern or SF setting. It feels like it's a problem of confidence & competence on that part of the publishers and developers.
Deatheye Dec 17, 2021 @ 7:25am 
Originally posted by KobraThor:
For example, 2 of my favorite RTS games ever, Warcraft 3 and Age of Mythology, have successfully hybridized the genre with light RPG mechanics. They are still RTS games at their core and can be completely enjoyed as such without using the heroes (aka the RPG elements)
I'm watching competitive Warcraft 3 games on a regular basis and depending on the situation, it's not unusual that once your hero dies the game is over or at least you're in big disadvantage.

Your army is basically lost without at least 1 hero.
KobraThor Dec 17, 2021 @ 7:56am 
Originally posted by Deatheye:
Originally posted by KobraThor:
For example, 2 of my favorite RTS games ever, Warcraft 3 and Age of Mythology, have successfully hybridized the genre with light RPG mechanics. They are still RTS games at their core and can be completely enjoyed as such without using the heroes (aka the RPG elements)
I'm watching competitive Warcraft 3 games on a regular basis and depending on the situation, it's not unusual that once your hero dies the game is over or at least you're in big disadvantage.

Your army is basically lost without at least 1 hero.

Yes, in competitive. This game here does not aim to be that if it'll even end up having Multi Player at some point. I was clearly doing a basic Single Player comparison of the difference between a core RTS with RPG elements and a core 4x strategy game with RTS elements.
Deatheye Dec 17, 2021 @ 8:08am 
Originally posted by KobraThor:
Originally posted by Deatheye:
I'm watching competitive Warcraft 3 games on a regular basis and depending on the situation, it's not unusual that once your hero dies the game is over or at least you're in big disadvantage.

Your army is basically lost without at least 1 hero.

Yes, in competitive. This game here does not aim to be that if it'll even end up having Multi Player at some point. I was clearly doing a basic Single Player comparison of the difference between a core RTS with RPG elements and a core 4x strategy game with RTS elements.
Even in singleplayer it's extremely odd to not use heroes, actually often the hero is required to complete a mission, in many missions he isn't even allowed to die.

Warcraft 3 is the best RTS game for me and I would absolutely welcome it if Shiro Games puts that kind of RPG elements into Dune, it would fit perfectly imo.

I think the RPG element makes it even better, at least for me. The game has a lot more tactical depth with the heroes and creeps and the items, but we don't have to deal with that 4X stuff, it's perfect :D

I'm not a fan of 4X in RTS, I haven't even played one. Same as many others here, my understanding of what an RTS should be is - you build a base, build units, gather ressources, find and destroy your enemy.

I really hope I will like what Shiro Games is doing, I need to see gameplay.
KobraThor Dec 17, 2021 @ 8:45am 
Originally posted by Deatheye:

I'm not a fan of 4X in RTS, I haven't even played one. Same as many others here, my understanding of what an RTS should be is - you build a base, build units, gather ressources, find and destroy your enemy.

I really hope I will like what Shiro Games is doing, I need to see gameplay.

Then we're on the same page. Hero RTS Dune would have spiced up things compared to the predecessors without unnecessarily complicating it with 4x "elements", however I am open to any kind of hybridization as long as it's a core RTS first and foremost.

Looking at the screenshots alone, which is the best they wanted to show:
- we can see limited to no base building and only having a center hub of sorts with which you extend your territory a la their previous game, Northgard;
- 5 man squad clusters which are stand points for armies a la Civilization games;
- a grid map a la 4x games which doesn't look like "elements" at all, but core gameplay;
- menus on top of menus again a la 4x with many over complicated gameplay and design decisions which again doesn't look like just "elements";
- stylized graphics aka cheap low resolution cartoons (look at the squads again) with the same engine used in Northgard (probably slightly improved);
- generic story based alone on the cartoony looks of the Duke and Baron and because most of these RTS pretender games rarely have one, at least worth mentioning, since the massive focus on complex strategy game mechanics.

Also, I'm not familiar with Funcom, but know about the trend rider Conan MMORPG and I don't have high hopes for their Dune reskin and I doubt they gave Shiro the necessary funding to make Spice Wars the game we all want to see, whether core RTS, advanced RTS or hybrid. This is just a job for the developers given to them by the publisher, a quick cash grab while the Dune IP is in the limelight with plenty of time to release between the 2 movies. Buyer beware.
dubliz Dec 17, 2021 @ 12:20pm 
Originally posted by KobraThor:
Originally posted by Deatheye:

I'm not a fan of 4X in RTS, I haven't even played one. Same as many others here, my understanding of what an RTS should be is - you build a base, build units, gather ressources, find and destroy your enemy.

I really hope I will like what Shiro Games is doing, I need to see gameplay.

Then we're on the same page. Hero RTS Dune would have spiced up things compared to the predecessors without unnecessarily complicating it with 4x "elements", however I am open to any kind of hybridization as long as it's a core RTS first and foremost.

Looking at the screenshots alone, which is the best they wanted to show:
- we can see limited to no base building and only having a center hub of sorts with which you extend your territory a la their previous game, Northgard;
- 5 man squad clusters which are stand points for armies a la Civilization games;
- a grid map a la 4x games which doesn't look like "elements" at all, but core gameplay;
- menus on top of menus again a la 4x with many over complicated gameplay and design decisions which again doesn't look like just "elements";
- stylized graphics aka cheap low resolution cartoons (look at the squads again) with the same engine used in Northgard (probably slightly improved);
- generic story based alone on the cartoony looks of the Duke and Baron and because most of these RTS pretender games rarely have one, at least worth mentioning, since the massive focus on complex strategy game mechanics.

Also, I'm not familiar with Funcom, but know about the trend rider Conan MMORPG and I don't have high hopes for their Dune reskin and I doubt they gave Shiro the necessary funding to make Spice Wars the game we all want to see, whether core RTS, advanced RTS or hybrid. This is just a job for the developers given to them by the publisher, a quick cash grab while the Dune IP is in the limelight with plenty of time to release between the 2 movies. Buyer beware.

Not exactly on topic here, but I read some of your posts and just wanted to ask whether you tried Spellforce 3? Campaign is more like RPG (with some RTS battles), but skirmish games would tick most of the boxes that you have for RTS games :hgveryhappy:
KobraThor Dec 18, 2021 @ 12:52am 
It is on topic since it's one of the first RTS hybrids. With RPG "elements".
I tried the first 2 Spellforce games and from what I remember, didn't like them due to putting too much attention on the hero from a gameplay perspective, thus leaning more towards RPG and the mediocre random fantasy story.

From checking the Spellforce 3 games, it seems to be more in line with Warcraft 3 (some units even look like they've been straight up lifted, like the wyvern rider throwing spears) and Age of Mythology with the titan like giant unit, but it looks like another generic fantasy story from the AI generator. Nothing to pull me in, other than the nice realistic graphics and not cheap cartoons like Spice Wars.

For me a good to great story is just as important for an RTS as is for an RPG, more so than any of the other genres. I've commented on this forum for the first time ever when I saw that my beloved Dune has gone 4x. Not even triple X, but the worst kind of exs. This means the story will be weak because it's balanced by needlessly overcomplicated mechanics for the autists whom appear to be huge consoomers regardless of story, graphics, presentation, etc. One can only check the endless shuffle of 4x, grand strategy, wargame and RTT games out there where Spice Wars dreams to get lost in, with Dark Fate Defiance too from the looks of it.
Last edited by KobraThor; Dec 18, 2021 @ 12:58am
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Date Posted: Dec 10, 2021 @ 5:28am
Posts: 16