Late game bosses just aren't fun.

[Hiphoptimus Rhyme]

There's really no other way to say it. There's a strict dichotomy between retarded easy and busted difficult where you require one or two specific abilities to overcome. My understanding is that gear acquisition was pushed out to avoid being too strong too early, but it appears these bosses weren't adjusted accordingly.

[theworld]

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

busted difficult where you require one or two specific abilities to overcome.

Are they so specific you're afraid to even name them?

[ralgur]

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

There's really no other way to say it. There's a strict dichotomy between retarded easy and busted difficult where you require one or two specific abilities to overcome. My understanding is that gear acquisition was pushed out to avoid being too strong too early, but it appears these bosses weren't adjusted accordingly.

Prepare for the white knights to defend the game by telling you that you suck. I agree that the bosses after about skill level 47 are not fun. No fun at all. I got my money's worth from the game, but it's a game where I'll never kill end game bosses. They made bosses scale so it's not even worth grouping for them. The devs obviously have some talent, but that was a boneheaded move. Let's make it so that when you group to kill bosses, it's even harder than when solo. That sounds fun.

[theworld]

Originally posted by ralgur:

They made bosses scale so it's not even worth grouping for them.

This is demonstrably False.

Even with 2 players, 1 can just leave the arena and heal from 1 HP to full HP and then swap with the partner.

It is impossible to heal from 1 HP to Full HP solo.

Group play is also MUCH stronger for the final (who is also hands down the hardest) boss of the game compared to a random one.

[Hiphoptimus Rhyme]

Originally posted by ralgur:

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

There's really no other way to say it. There's a strict dichotomy between retarded easy and busted difficult where you require one or two specific abilities to overcome. My understanding is that gear acquisition was pushed out to avoid being too strong too early, but it appears these bosses weren't adjusted accordingly.

Prepare for the white knights to defend the game by telling you that you suck. I agree that the bosses after about skill level 47 are not fun. No fun at all. I got my money's worth from the game, but it's a game where I'll never kill end game bosses. They made bosses scale so it's not even worth grouping for them. The devs obviously have some talent, but that was a boneheaded move. Let's make it so that when you group to kill bosses, it's even harder than when solo. That sounds fun.

Aye, there's really no defense for it given it's not a secret; similar posts litter both these forums and the feedback page players are redirected to. That being said, I can't speak to group play as I'm fully solo.

Originally posted by theworld:

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

busted difficult where you require one or two specific abilities to overcome.

Are they so specific you're afraid to even name them?

Ungora, Duke, Cyril, Mairwyn; Ward of the Damned, Wraith Spear, Blood Rage. These bosses are particularly difficult within their associated tiers unless using these specific spells (and occasionally specific weapons, as slicers and pistols are especially useful on all of them. The point is they shouldn't require inflexible builds to manage (miss me with the links to the 1/1000 players doing it with no upgrades and fragile).

I can't help but notice you didn't demand a list of the comically easy bosses in this tier, Here you go as a bonus:

Magnus, Willfred, Foulrot, Wanderer (granted, this one is just a gimmick fight), Angrum. Domina.

Notice how I presented a dichotomy? Silly that you only demanded half of it. The only two bosses within this tier so far that feel 'balanced' are Henry and Ziva.

I'll be taking a crack at Morian, Baron, Azariel, and Terrorclaw in due time as my upgrade needs demand, and thus I'll reserve judgement on them.

[theworld]

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

Ungora, Duke, Cyril, Mairwyn; Ward of the Damned, Wraith Spear, Blood Rage. These bosses are particularly difficult within their associated tiers unless using these specific spells (and occasionally specific weapons, as slicers and pistols are especially useful on all of them.

Are you trolling? While Ward of the Damned is one of the best PvE skills in the game, Wraith Spear, and especially Blood Rage are not, unless you are playing in a Squad.

==

Blood Rage is a little bit of everything (a bit of healing, a bit of move speed, a bit of attack speed), but for a very long (10 seconds) cooldown it is just a non-starter unless you are playing the dual absorption build with Power Surge, and it is a legit build, but you cannot have that because it requires Azariel.

You could make it better by pairing it with another Blood Spell that has a mod that consumes Blood status effect, but it would still be inferior to options from other spell branches. Furthermore, it is terrible out of the box and requires very good Jewel rolls to even be considered.

==

Wraith Spear suffers from most of the same problems: it's a bit of everything, but not the best as either AoE or Single target damage.

Its repositioning aspect, while unique and not without utility, is difficult to utilize completely because you would need to time it kind of like Slashers Q: To simultaneously evade damage from a boss' attack and deal damage yourself. But there are no i-frames so most of the time you have to settle for either doing the damage or avoiding it.

If you want damage then the following are superior alternatives: Chaos Volley is superior at single target damage, Bone Explosion is superior at AoE because it does not require you to line the boss and adds in a very narrow straight line, and has a superior status effect, Ball Lightning has better damage and has a superior status effect.

If you want to avoid damage then Shields/counters like Blood Rite completely block almost any attack and do damage when they block it. The "invisibility" mod on Blood Rite is particularly useful in PvE because unlike Slashers E it is true invisibility and drops aggro completely, while also allowing you to do damage for free while it lasts.

==

Blood Rage's utility lies in increased attack and movement speed, and putting yourself away from the boss by casting Wraith Spear drops DPS on an already poor (from +DPS/second of cooldown standpoint) to almost nothing.

Wraith Spear + Blood Rage is anti-synergy and I would never have even considered pairing the two unless it is some kind of self-imposed "make the game harder on yourself" challenge.

[theworld]

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

The point is they shouldn't require inflexible builds to manage (miss me with the links to the 1/1000 players doing it with no upgrades and fragile).

I guarantee you the other 999/1000 players did it WITHOUT Blood Rage + Wraith Spear.

Also, how do you "require" Wraith Spear to beat Cyril, when you need to... beat Cyril before you get it?

[Hiphoptimus Rhyme]

Originally posted by theworld:

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

The point is they shouldn't require inflexible builds to manage (miss me with the links to the 1/1000 players doing it with no upgrades and fragile).

I guarantee you the other 999/1000 players did it WITHOUT Blood Rage + Wraith Spear.

Also, how do you "require" Wraith Spear to beat Cyril, when you need to... beat Cyril before you get it?

I didn't use all of these spells as a single build you disingenuous clown. That includes "Blood Rage + Wraith Spear" I listed bosses that require specific spells, then listed the specific spells in no particular order. It's amusing that the fact that this game isn't perfect triggers you. Wipe the froth off your face, you look silly.

[Yumeko]

If youre using wraith spear youre trolling.

[Xenobunny]

I died about 20 times to electric lady and lost all of my hair... then I drank the blood of a 100% CHAD, I did a bunch of home made drugs, and I channelled the frothing electric ghost of Pikachu into a pair of axes to swing them at the speed of light. The boss died in what seemed less than 10 seconds to my vibrating brain and if the drugs didn't wear off shortly after I would have killed god.

If you've ever played the Witcher for example, There is a solution to ever unique monster... But if you do ALL the drugs and apply a little bit of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ you can skip the study session.

[@xaker89]

Originally posted by theworld:

Blood Rage is a little bit of everything (a bit of healing, a bit of move speed, a bit of attack speed), but for a very long (10 seconds) cooldown it is just a non-starter unless you are playing the dual absorption build with Power Surge, and it is a legit build, but you cannot have that because it requires Azariel.

I beat the whole game solo with blood rage, never swapped, because it very strong and gives you everything you need, especially good with dual blades, you cast BR and go invisible. You don't really need BS for it to be good.

[Aaron]

I've noticed from my own play-troughs and from watching others, that some bosses are harder solo than they are as a group, and vise-versa. Keep in mind though that they overhauled a number of mid-game bosses with the Gloomrot update, and we'll likely get the same for late game bosses when they release the end game content with the 1.0 launch this spring.

[Pragmatic Tornado]

I have two bosses left of my solo playthrough (besides the 3 "secret" ones which I will ignore), and so far I have struggled twice, once on Maja (10ish attempts), and later Duke (25ish attempts). Rest I have managed to kill relatively easy (less than 3 or so attempts).

But I still agree; late game just isn't very fun. It's become a chore and an obsession to finish the boss list. I could have made it easier by tweaking the difficulty, but I didn't want to "cheat" by buffing stats.

But I will say I really enjoyed the game the first 25 or so hours.

[Tanyon]

Honestly on our server we reduced boss health by 15% and damage by 15% and we had a decent time.. there was even 2 or 3 bosses that we had to try 5+ times. Mind you we aren't amazing at the game or anything.. I've seen videos of people beating every boss with no gear and just a weapon so I know you can just "get gud" but this gave us a more casual experience and was still fun and challenging at times.

[Hiphoptimus Rhyme]

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

Honestly on our server we reduced boss health by 15% and damage by 15% and we had a decent time.. there was even 2 or 3 bosses that we had to try 5+ times. Mind you we aren't amazing at the game or anything.. I've seen videos of people beating every boss with no gear and just a weapon so I know you can just "get gud" but this gave us a more casual experience and was still fun and challenging at times.

I've gone the git gud route, but I have to say I'm absolutely hitting a wall with Adam. I really don't understand why we have bosses that have such rapid-fire crowd control/aoe (or minion) output when our kits can only account for a portion of the required mobility under the best of circumstances.

[theworld]

Originally posted by Hiphoptimus Rhyme:

I've gone the git gud route, but I have to say I'm absolutely hitting a wall with Adam. I really don't understand why we have bosses that have such rapid-fire crowd control/aoe (or minion) output when our kits can only account for a portion of the required mobility under the best of circumstances.

The trick to Adam is you can simply outwalk his projectile spam if you are really close to him.

Stay close and don't attack because that makes you slower and less likely to dodge.