Boss / Dungeon / Raid mechanics

[dupree0991]

So just to make things clear i just played tranquil karkosa abyss dungeon and i kinda want to quit now.
I have noticed it before but here it is just atrocious and it will probably get worse. Did i not see the explanation of how the wipe ability works? I´m pretty sure there was no "stop the orbs from reaching the boss"-notice. How is a new player supposed to know all the things you have to know for mechanics like that? If i have to read a guide for that, than the game either fails in designing it´s mechanics or comunicating them.

On a different note, everyone who played this game knows what a cluster**** of effects it can be. To have to look at the boss, to know what kind of attack he´ll do or where he´s going to hit, with all these effects, when you maybe play a class that wants to stay relativly far away from from enemies feels like a big f you and kind of means: turn the effects of in the settings or be screwed.
If i want that kind of bs i go and play darksouls.

So what i´m saying is: the mechanics are a badly communicated mess that would need some change.

[Neo]

I dont think I've ever taken part in a raid in any game where the game has told me how to beat it. I've either had to read a guide or have it explained to me.

[Gonger]

Anyone else read this post as: "It's not my fault I kept up messing up and made my team quit the dungeon. Obviously the game is at fault."

[dupree0991]

Publicado originalmente por Gonger:

Anyone else read this post as: "It's not my fault I kept up messing up and made my team quit the dungeon. Obviously the game is at fault."

Of course it´s my fault, i didn´t do what the game needed me to do, but that does not change the fact that it did a piss poor job in telling me what it is that i needed to do.

[tankanidis]

I read it as 'the game doesn't teach you it's own mechanics, you are destined to fail abyssals repeatedly until someone watches a guide on youtube to learn how to do it/explain to others'

The dance around the circle to get yellow/white and stop to get 2 in one spot? Yeah that's not intuitive

Game throws 30 different one shot mechanics at you that you only need a few times in the entire game (or once given a particular boss type) so that adds up fast

Bosses like Achetus are just plain unfair fights

[(:AR:)-Paradox]

High end content in almost all MMOs requires trial and error. WoW, LotRO, FFXIV, ESO, and more all use tricky mechanics that generally require some dying before the first clears and guides. If mechanics were immediately intuitive, there would be no race for world first clears of things like Savage/Ultimate in FFXIV, for example.

A mechanic needs to be understandable (AKA, if I know how to resolve it, I can execute it), but it does not need to be immediately obvious. If a boss does a one-shot in the middle of the arena after his biggest attack, he does not need to declare "I will now one-shot the middle of the arena, run for it." He just goes for it, and after you die once or twice you make the connection "ah - I should always stay near the outer edge when he finishes casting his ultimate." A bad wipe mechanic would be one that's impossible to decipher on the fly (unreadable numbers, poor text/wording, "gotcha" moments) or too complicated to work out as it shows up.

For example, if a boss has two attacks, Hisherimementori and Hisherimementtori, and one is a wipe and the other is not, that's a poorly designed mechanic. Basing a read off of a one character type is no fun, hard to do in combat, and poor design. On the other side, if a wipe's location is based on a boss' location, modified by the time in the fight he casts it, the colors on the wall when it resolves, the positioning of two mirrors, and the voice line he stated 2 minutes ago, that's also bad. Simply "not telling you how things work" however is the norm for most high end content.

All of this being said, given all other fights I've witnessed, if I saw orbs headed TOWARDS the boss on a blind run my first instinct would be to stop them. There are so many dozens of bosses that use that as a buff or wipe mechanic that I'd just instinctively try to kill/block them unless I knew otherwise. Even other bosses in LA before Tranquil Karkosa use it, like whats-her-face in Ark of Arrogance where you need to buff up then stop all of the orbs from reaching her.

[Bazratty]

I seriously can't believe what I just read... The game is poor because it doesn't hold your hand and spoon feed you every bit of content. Seriously that's your gripe?

You have two options, firstly figure it out by trial and error. Make a mistake and wipe, retry and try your best not to make the same mistake again, rinse and repeat.

Don't like option one? Then as recommended above, read/watch a guide to learn the basics , and then give it a go.

That's the style of the game, and if it triggers you that much, I'd guess the game is not for you, that doesn't mean it's a bad game, its just not the game for you.

[76561198148697700]

I take it you never monster hunter or even souls game before, they never tell you ♥♥♥♥ and wipe you out.

[Medicles]

Publicado originalmente por Bazratty:

I seriously can't believe what I just read... The game is poor because it doesn't hold your hand and spoon feed you every bit of content. Seriously that's your gripe?

You have two options, firstly figure it out by trial and error. Make a mistake and wipe, retry and try your best not to make the same mistake again, rinse and repeat.

Don't like option one? Then as recommended above, read/watch a guide to learn the basics , and then give it a go.

That's the style of the game, and if it triggers you that much, I'd guess the game is not for you, that doesn't mean it's a bad game, its just not the game for you.

To be fair here, trial and error in Lost Ark is a little bit different than in other games, mostly because the majority of content can be dealt with in under ten minutes. This leads to the community being impatient as hell and since many mechanics need the whole team to know what to do, its not quite simple to learn that mechanic after the first try, even when someone explains it to you. People always need several tries, especailly with a random group, but that isnt happening when the impatient community is surrendering after the second try to find people who already beat the content.

So eventually it ends in either getting told what to do by other players or watching guides and both of those options are literally holding your hands and spoon feeding you every bit of information you need. So why shouldnt the game do it officially? They already implemented more than enough video guides for all their progression stuff.

[Three-Headed-Monkey]

Publicado originalmente por ❤:

I take it you never monster hunter or even souls game before, they never tell you ♥♥♥♥ and wipe you out.

i take it you also never played those, because you usually just hit stuff until it dies in both games ;D

OP has a point with non-intuitive wipe mechanics for pug content, but you'll just have to watch a 3 min guide before doing a new abyssal going forward

[Dr.Acula]

Publicado originalmente por ❤:

I take it you never monster hunter or even souls game before, they never tell you ♥♥♥♥ and wipe you out.

Dark Souls is not exactly about complicated wipe mechanics. It's more about identifying specific attacks and dodging them. You watch what the boss does and you act accordingly.

Tell me that you can identify just by watching the fight from your own perspective (not a guide) that you're supposed to walk around in a circle and stop at specific positions to pick up an orb that is flying towards a boss. And not just that but that you're supposed to do it in a different pattern the second time. Also if anyone within your group dies before that mechanic appears, the fight is already lost.

Please understand that I'm not saying the fight overall is hard. I'm saying the mechanics are unintuitive and unnecessarily complicated.

[tankanidis]

Publicado originalmente por Medicles:

Publicado originalmente por Bazratty:

I seriously can't believe what I just read... The game is poor because it doesn't hold your hand and spoon feed you every bit of content. Seriously that's your gripe?

You have two options, firstly figure it out by trial and error. Make a mistake and wipe, retry and try your best not to make the same mistake again, rinse and repeat.

Don't like option one? Then as recommended above, read/watch a guide to learn the basics , and then give it a go.

That's the style of the game, and if it triggers you that much, I'd guess the game is not for you, that doesn't mean it's a bad game, its just not the game for you.

To be fair here, trial and error in Lost Ark is a little bit different than in other games, mostly because the majority of content can be dealt with in under ten minutes. This leads to the community being impatient as hell and since many mechanics need the whole team to know what to do, its not quite simple to learn that mechanic after the first try, even when someone explains it to you. People always need several tries, especailly with a random group, but that isnt happening when the impatient community is surrendering after the second try to find people who already beat the content.

So eventually it ends in either getting told what to do by other players or watching guides and both of those options are literally holding your hands and spoon feeding you every bit of information you need. So why shouldnt the game do it officially? They already implemented more than enough video guides for all their progression stuff.

Yeah

there's heaps of 'raid quit' we failed once groups out there that sours things

The old days of 'you leave when the boss gets beaten' is long gone

[FeelsGoodMan]

If you are not ready to watch like a 3-5min guide, then this game is nothing for you. Later in the leagion Raids there are so many mechanics by try and error would cost months... why waste this time if someone else already did the job. Also, just because you've seen a guide video doesn't mean you'll be able to apply what you've learned.
Do you also dont watch class guides or tipps & tricks videos? If not you will not have fun here.

[FeelsGoodMan]

Publicado originalmente por Thelis:

1) You can not LEARN the mechanics from trial and error
1a) Too much crap goes on all at once and if 1 person fails, EVERYONE fails
2) If you do not have the crystal aura, you cannot repair in dungeons thus you litterally can NOT do trial and error(YES i know about the "repair" scroll, it doesnt repair ANYTHING, all it does is teleport you back to the start of the dungeon, so you can use your "pet functions" to repair, which requires crystaline aura and pet functions to be active)
3) if you love experiencing things first hand, and learning how to play/what to do, just stop playing this game if you want to do "End game" No one cares about "learning it yourself" all they care about is "Thier next shinnie thing"
4) lag, screen stuttering, and input lock ups, can kill you and cost your entire party the fight

So basicly, my advise to you, if you want to learn by doing, find a group of people willing to do that with you, if not, dont give yourself needless frustration and toxic garbadge pugging

1. Wrong, korea also managed to learn everything... you can do it aswell.
1a. Wrong, how would you know if you haven't even played Abyss Dungeons. Cringe.

2. what?

3. Wrong, I have a friend who is doing this with some others friend. They take the time so read and leanr stuff ingame...

4. Thats you problem if you have lags and pc problems lol... like in every other game.

[Dr.Acula]

Publicado originalmente por FeelsGoodMan:

1. Wrong, korea also managed to learn everything... you can do it aswell.
1a. Wrong, how would you know if you haven't even played Abyss Dungeons. Cringe.

2. what?

3. Wrong, I have a friend who is doing this with some others friend. They take the time so read and leanr stuff ingame...

4. Thats you problem if you have lags and pc problems lol... like in every other game.

Dude, you already contracdict yourself in the very first point. in your previous post you wrote:
"If you are not ready to watch like a 3-5min guide, then this game is nothing for you"
And yet you claim that the statement that people cannot really learn through trial and error in Lost Ark for various reason is wrong. How about you actually think about what you write before you actually start typing?

You are also wrong about point 1a. The previous poster did not say he never went into Abyss Dungeons. He clearly said that he didn't after his first two experiences because of that aspect.

Regarding point 2 - learn to read

On point three you're again contradicting your previous post. You cannot learn the mechanics yourself when you go into the dungeons because if you try the other people in your group will get mad at you for not knowing the mechanics. Show me how many groups you've seen in Lost Ark that prepare to go into a dungeon that are specifically intended to do "learning by trying". Back when I looked at the group finder usually the descriptions looked like this:
"Dungeon X - know mechanics - fast"

Regarding the last point you're also wrong because Lost Ark has issues with stuttering and FPS drops. I've seen it happening several times and I have a beast of a PC which for example has an RTX 3080 and a AMD Ryzen 9 5900X. So don't try to lecture people on bad PCs...

Lost ark in fact has optimization issues which most of the time can be seen when going into a new area.

[FeelsGoodMan]

Publicado originalmente por Dr.Acula:

Publicado originalmente por FeelsGoodMan:

1. Wrong, korea also managed to learn everything... you can do it aswell.
1a. Wrong, how would you know if you haven't even played Abyss Dungeons. Cringe.

2. what?

3. Wrong, I have a friend who is doing this with some others friend. They take the time so read and leanr stuff ingame...

4. Thats you problem if you have lags and pc problems lol... like in every other game.

Dude, you already contracdict yourself in the very first point. in your previous post you wrote:
"If you are not ready to watch like a 3-5min guide, then this game is nothing for you"
And yet you claim that the statement that people cannot really learn through trial and error in Lost Ark for various reason is wrong. How about you actually think about what you write before you actually start typing?

You are also wrong about point 1a. The previous poster did not say he never went into Abyss Dungeons. He clearly said that he didn't after his first two experiences because of that aspect.

Regarding point 2 - learn to read

On point three you're again contradicting your previous post. You cannot learn the mechanics yourself when you go into the dungeons because if you try the other people in your group will get mad at you for not knowing the mechanics. Show me how many groups you've seen in Lost Ark that prepare to go into a dungeon that are specifically intended to do "learning by trying". Back when I looked at the group finder usually the descriptions looked like this:
"Dungeon X - know mechanics - fast"

Regarding the last point you're also wrong because Lost Ark has issues with stuttering and FPS drops. I've seen it happening several times and I have a beast of a PC which for example has an RTX 3080 and a AMD Ryzen 9 5900X. So don't try to lecture people on bad PCs...

Lost ark in fact has optimization issues which most of the time can be seen when going into a new area.

If you are going to quote me, then please quote me in full.

"If you are not ready to watch like a 3-5min guide, then this game is nothing for you. Later in the leagion Raids there are so many mechanics by try and error would cost months... why waste this time if someone else already did the job."
:)
You can still try and error but is the time worth for you is the question.
"How about you actually think about what you write before you actually start typing?"

1a He had written that he has run like 2 dungeos or so and has an Ilvl of 1340 around....
I'm not surprised that he deleted his post, after such a statement.

I can read thanks, otherwise I could not answer, could I?

3. I had a few grp where we wipt 10-20 times to understand the mechanics. If everyone wants to quiten after 2-3 fails, there are wrong here.

I agree Lost Ark has some problems like 60FPS cap if you have 2 monitors one 144hrz and one 60 hrz. I also have a "beast" like you but here are many videos on youtube helping you. I have no problems.