Airship: Kingdoms Adrift

Airship: Kingdoms Adrift

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clay gamer Sep 21, 2023 @ 1:57pm
aren't the people on the store page AI art?
the two men in the 5th picture have completely different styles and the woman in the next picture is missing a finger of which the top part magically appears near the tip of her pointer finger
https://i.imgur.com/B8OKcjT.png
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Showing 1-15 of 25 comments
Hexagoros Sep 21, 2023 @ 2:03pm 
No clue, and I honestly don't care.

The game is fantastic, and its a small dev team. If they were able to cut costs and improve development time by using AI art, so what?
Warwick Sep 21, 2023 @ 2:33pm 
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
No clue, and I honestly don't care.

The game is fantastic, and its a small dev team. If they were able to cut costs and improve development time by using AI art, so what?
Depending on how the devs are using it (If they are using it at all ) AI art in a commercial project is straight up unethical. It doesn't matter how good the game is.
Hexagoros Sep 21, 2023 @ 2:38pm 
Originally posted by Warwick:
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
No clue, and I honestly don't care.

The game is fantastic, and its a small dev team. If they were able to cut costs and improve development time by using AI art, so what?
Depending on how the devs are using it (If they are using it at all ) AI art in a commercial project is straight up unethical. It doesn't matter how good the game is.

I don't see it as unethical at all, sorry.

These tools are here to stay, you're going to need to get over it.
clay gamer Sep 21, 2023 @ 2:44pm 
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
No clue, and I honestly don't care.

The game is fantastic, and its a small dev team. If they were able to cut costs and improve development time by using AI art, so what?
If you don't know and do not care, why are you in my thread?
Warwick Sep 21, 2023 @ 3:00pm 
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
Originally posted by Warwick:
Depending on how the devs are using it (If they are using it at all ) AI art in a commercial project is straight up unethical. It doesn't matter how good the game is.

I don't see it as unethical at all, sorry.

These tools are here to stay, you're going to need to get over it.
I'm not interested in trying to explain why its unethical to anyone or change anyone's mind. It unquestionably devalues the work artists and writers and if you are cool with that, fine. I was just trying to answer your original question of 'who cares?' and I'm very certain that there is no small number of people who do indeed care.

Also, as of August, it seems that in the US, It's not possible to copy write AI art so I'm not entirely confident the tools are here to stay.
Last edited by Warwick; Sep 21, 2023 @ 3:05pm
Hexagoros Sep 21, 2023 @ 3:23pm 
Originally posted by Warwick:
Originally posted by Hexagoros:

I don't see it as unethical at all, sorry.

These tools are here to stay, you're going to need to get over it.
I'm not interested in trying to explain why its unethical to anyone or change anyone's mind. It unquestionably devalues the work artists and writers and if you are cool with that, fine. I was just trying to answer your original question of 'who cares?' and I'm very certain that there is no small number of people who do indeed care.

Also, as of August, it seems that in the US, It's not possible to copy write AI art so I'm not entirely confident the tools are here to stay.

"Devaluing the work of artists." What exactly does that mean? There are guys on Artstation and Deviant who showcase how they incorporate AI into their workflow.

Why shouldn't these same artists have these tools available to their workflow?

Yes, it is impossible to copyright raw, unedited generated AI art "by itself." However, that's clearly not what anyone serious is trying to do - at least not with the current crop of tools.

People didn't think sound was "here to stay" in movies at one time either (I'm not even kidding, look it up). The internet was once thought to be a novelty, and calculators were once deemed "the instruments of the lazy."

How'd that work out?

On productivity alone, there is now a wide demand for generative AI tools, both in the realms of art and business workflow. Which major company is going to be the first to ban their employees from processing data with AI? Or using AI to conduct menial tasks?

Even if you're right and it's totally unethical, there is a global AI Arms Race going on "right now," both among governments and businesses, and there is no putting this genie back in the bottle.

Originally posted by Warwick:
Also, as of August, it seems that in the US, It's not possible to copy write AI art so I'm not entirely confident the tools are here to stay.

Yeah, and Search Engines were totally a fad.

Originally posted by clay gamer:
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
No clue, and I honestly don't care.

The game is fantastic, and its a small dev team. If they were able to cut costs and improve development time by using AI art, so what?
If you don't know and do not care, why are you in my thread?

Because let's say the devs pop in and say "No, AI wasn't used." How do you know whether they're telling the truth or not?

These AI-witch hunts are beyond stupid.
Last edited by Hexagoros; Sep 21, 2023 @ 3:36pm
Warwick Sep 21, 2023 @ 4:01pm 
2
If the devs don't use AI at all, great. I hope they state as much. There are tools that can detect AI generated art work with fairly high accuracy if people feel inclined to investigate it. If they do use it, it should source only from artists they have hired or contracted in the same way Galciv IV is supposedly doing it, using AI trained with artwork that is properly bought and paid for. Any use of AI needs to scrape from authorized sources else it is stealing from artists with no compensation or credit, which is why any person should take issue with AI to begin with.

I'd really love to know why AI witch hunts are so stupid when theft is a core concern over the matter. Steam has a policy against hosting games made with AI art and it's not for an arbitrary reason.
Hexagoros Sep 21, 2023 @ 5:07pm 
2
Originally posted by Warwick:
If the devs don't use AI at all, great. I hope they state as much. There are tools that can detect AI generated art work with fairly high accuracy if people feel inclined to investigate it.

You mean the same AI detection tools that thought the US Constitution was written by AI?

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/why-ai-detectors-think-the-us-constitution-was-written-by-ai/

Or the same AI detection tools that accused innocent students of cheating?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/04/01/chatgpt-cheating-detection-turnitin/

The success of artists does not hinge on trying to bury a technology that has already permeated the public anymore than the success of musicians in the late 1990s and early 2000s depended on outlawing streaming. Or are you of the opinion that Tower Records should somehow become our primary source of music again?

The most successful artists today are going to be those who improve their art and increase their productivity by incorporating AI into their workflow.
clay gamer Sep 21, 2023 @ 5:14pm 
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
Originally posted by Warwick:
If the devs don't use AI at all, great. I hope they state as much. There are tools that can detect AI generated art work with fairly high accuracy if people feel inclined to investigate it.

You mean the same AI detection tools that thought the US Constitution was written by AI?

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/why-ai-detectors-think-the-us-constitution-was-written-by-ai/

Or the same AI detection tools that accused innocent students of cheating?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/04/01/chatgpt-cheating-detection-turnitin/

The success of artists does not hinge on trying to bury a technology that has already permeated the public anymore than the success of musicians in the late 1990s and early 2000s depended on outlawing streaming. Or are you of the opinion that Tower Records should somehow become our primary source of music again?

The most successful artists today are going to be those who improve their art and increase their productivity by incorporating AI into their workflow.
The ones you posted are ones specific to writing, not image generation. can you take your bad faith nonsense out of the thread please?
Warwick Sep 21, 2023 @ 6:24pm 
Originally posted by Hexagoros:
Originally posted by Warwick:
If the devs don't use AI at all, great. I hope they state as much. There are tools that can detect AI generated art work with fairly high accuracy if people feel inclined to investigate it.

You mean the same AI detection tools that thought the US Constitution was written by AI?

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2023/07/why-ai-detectors-think-the-us-constitution-was-written-by-ai/

Or the same AI detection tools that accused innocent students of cheating?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/04/01/chatgpt-cheating-detection-turnitin/

The success of artists does not hinge on trying to bury a technology that has already permeated the public anymore than the success of musicians in the late 1990s and early 2000s depended on outlawing streaming. Or are you of the opinion that Tower Records should somehow become our primary source of music again?

The most successful artists today are going to be those who improve their art and increase their productivity by incorporating AI into their workflow.
I appologise in that I did not make clear that I am not anti tech or want to see some sort of stagnation in what kind of tools are being employed by artists, writers, business etc but I stand firm on my belief that there are serious ethical concerns regarding the use of AI and it shouldn't be hand waved away as non consequential. As I mentioned above, there is a good reason why Steam has policy against games using AI generation. The entire purpose of the conversation I am trying to have centres on the ease of its misuse and what essentially amounts to plagiarisation.

Theft of work isn't a new concept but irresponsible use of AI streamlines it. Personally I would like to be able to trust an artist or studio is presenting work that firmly belongs to them. AI can obfuscate that entirely except under certain and very controlled circumstances. An artist employed at Revolution Industry ( or any company) who plagiarised artwork would endanger that studio and their product. Why then is it acceptable to use AI generation ( again assuming they are not using AI trained only on materials they produced in house and therefore own ) if it's well understood that it could be using artwork that never belonged to them?

Prior to AI being available artists needed to be careful in what materials they used in their works, no matter how abstract, in order to minimise any chance being accused of stealing from other artists or studios. AI can easily strip the artist of being able to know what and where generated materials come from.

I can only offer an anecdotal example ( I'm sure that's not worth much to you but it does fall within plausibility) from my time working as a 3d artist years ago, I've seen a coworker disciplined and put on probation for lifting hi res textures sold by a third party company that they weren't authorised to use. They chose to use materials they weren't legally entitled to and suffered consequences for it. It was an active choice on their part, was it wrong for them to be punished for using stolen material?

Imagine then they used AI to generate the texture for them using an assortment of materials scraped from the internet that they may not have authorisation to use and present their work as entirely their own. What implications does that have for the artist or subsequently the studio if it's proven they used stolen assets? Should the use of AI protect the artist or studio in such a case since they perhaps weren't aware that they were using assets that were stolen?

it's murky as hell and you would be correct that companies are doing their best to be on the forefront of the technology being discussed but I wouldn't place bets AI generation employed in a silky smooth and consequence free fashion. Again there is a reason why Steam is disallowing games with AI generated art and it should be closely scrutinised.

I'm not arguing for regression. I'm arguing for responsible and regulated use. And if Revolution Industries used AI for their art work, I am saying they should declare it.
Last edited by Warwick; Sep 21, 2023 @ 7:06pm
The Haney Sep 21, 2023 @ 6:24pm 
If you think the use of AI for applications such as this is unethical, you're *really* going to hate the next few decades.
Warwick Sep 21, 2023 @ 6:45pm 
Originally posted by The Haney:
If you think the use of AI for applications such as this is unethical, you're *really* going to hate the next few decades.
I might very well hate the next few decades. As it stands I never though I would be attacked for advocating for artists and writers and the protection of their works.

AI doesn't need to be unethical in its application but apparently few people care about such things.
The Haney Sep 21, 2023 @ 7:33pm 
The degree to which it's unethical is largely up to individual perception.

Just to play devil's advocate, one might say that labeling such use as unethical would be calling ANY artwork "inspired" by another source, freely available or not, unethical.

Is making a game about airships, at it's essence, a theft of previous airship-centered creations? Is crafting orchestral music with a computer a slap in the face to real-life orchestras?

The whole conversation is sliding along a gradient of what one considers proprietary. And at the moment, legally, if AI programs can "see" your work (ie it's available publicly online), they can take "inspiration" from it.
Warwick Sep 21, 2023 @ 7:56pm 
Originally posted by The Haney:
The degree to which it's unethical is largely up to individual perception.

Just to play devil's advocate, one might say that labeling such use as unethical would be calling ANY artwork "inspired" by another source, freely available or not, unethical.

Is making a game about airships, at it's essence, a theft of previous airship-centered creations? Is crafting orchestral music with a computer a slap in the face to real-life orchestras?

The whole conversation is sliding along a gradient of what one considers proprietary. And at the moment, legally, if AI programs can "see" your work (ie it's available publicly online), they can take "inspiration" from it.
I'm sorry but inspiration and plagiarism is no where near the same thing. The devs were not the first to conceive of the idea of an airship and nothing wrong with that. But say someone else comes along and they copy airship designs iconic to this game but do some colour swaps and re-scale a part here and there it would be an awfully large stretch to say it's just inspiration and not outright theft however that would be up to Revolution Industry to make that determination for themselves and what they would want to do about it.

The argument of synthetic classical music isn't even part of this conversation really. I'm not arguing against technology, just the methods of employment. But if someone note for note copies an orchestral piece not in public domain but uses a digital suite to produce it, the may find themselves in hot water and rightfully so. Litigation of copied music is pretty easy to look up online.

AI cannot be inspired. It learns from what ever is presented from it and makes modifications, usually though it doesn't modify the source materials well enough and does become very questionable in matters of plagiarism.
Last edited by Warwick; Sep 21, 2023 @ 8:06pm
keylocke Sep 21, 2023 @ 8:12pm 
note for note copies

does AI actually do this? letters rearranged into word, words rearranged into sentences, sentences rearranged into books, pixels rearranged into digital images, etc..

from how far does "copy"-right reach pertaining to "ownership" of pixel arrangement?

edit : case in point, if someone writes a script that will randomize the pixels of the 1000x1000 image, given enough time and randomness, it could generate EVERY single possible arrangement of pixels.
Last edited by keylocke; Sep 21, 2023 @ 8:15pm
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Date Posted: Sep 21, 2023 @ 1:57pm
Posts: 25