Funnel Hourglass

[rexalian2000]

This should automate after 1 or 2 completions rather than 10. 10 is a million years away and leaves a pause in the middle of your game for basically the rest of time because of the nature of this action getting harder each time you complete it. You shouldn't need to complete 2 more islands before being able to automate a step on the first one.

[Furrygopher]

I haven't done the hourglass 10 times yet, but I have done the shield 10 times.

What concerns me with automation of these in general is that due to the escalating cost there will be times the automation fails, leaving you at 25% health, the shield is followed seconds later by a combat.

I get the feeling there will be occasions when failing the shield will leave you unable to complete the next fight, ending the run.

Presumably there is a level of shield and hourglass where that will become impossible, the health loss simply saturated from the skills. nor have I unlocked any other hourglass skills so I can't yet speak with certainty. but I get the impression this will be a decision point I have to keep manual long after I've technically unlocked the automation.


Edit, yep that just happened, what i'd been able to do 11 times in a row was no longer viable on the 12th and the combat killed me, I wouldn't recommend automating shield until you have levelled to where the follow up fight isn't a threat.

[HotSipOfColdTea]

I don't get why that is a concern. You gain more skills and will eventually be able to do it.

I think escalating task costs are a good addition to this game. They also add a lot of depth for manual type play with saving cookable food bursts to clear one of these hurdles slightly earlier.

In effect, they add multiple tiers where manual optimization can push the edge and full idle play is still possible, it just takes slightly longer to be able to do a section.


It also pushes the core concept of perhaps changing the automations in between runs for semi-idle play (I can't get the next hourglass level yet, turn the automation off for a few runs, then back on).

In short, this mechanic is great for semi idlers and manual adjustment playstyles.

[Furrygopher]

Personally my concern is specifically with the North route.

Failure to collect the Funnels to the East and West is not fatal to a run as they are not immediately followed up by a combat or life draining activity, you simply move on to the another chapter with a brief respite to recover your health. it might cost large quantities of food and time lowering your runs overall potential if you automate them, but that's the same decision as not building a house or cart, or skipping a food.

To the north failure ends the run, unless you are considerably over levelled, you are going into a combat on 25% health likely having only a full inventory of stew, to me that's jarring with the way we've learned to use automation up till this point.

[Nico]

Yeah, automation for funneling seems rather weird to me, since it gets more difficult with every completion, so we can always fail those tasks even much later in the game, it feels like something we always need to micromanage.

[rexalian2000]

the design has fundamentally changed gameplay, you now have to have specific goals for runs, the idea of 'do everything' in a run no longer works, unless you are willing to have dozens of runs end in failure early while you grind back up to being able to finish the funnel actions. Instead you have to choose, funnel run or progress run.

That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is a big difference and, back to my actual original comment, means that until you can automate funnel which will take a LONG LONG time, you can't do a funnel run without stopping midrun. unlike prior to this update when you could relatively quickly unlock automation ( easily before the end of the next chapter) and just configure your run prior to starting it. I am now in chapter 8 and am still not CLOSE to being to automate a task in act 5. Setting automation limit to 3 completions does NOTHING to game balance and lets players automate the first 20 minutes of a 30 minute run ( which they were always able to do before) instead of having to check in at 10 and again at 15 minutes if they want to do an hourglass action.

[HotSipOfColdTea]

From a pure automation perspective, the concept of fatal run makes no sense as you earned xp to make more progress the next run. The only reason the fatal run is a problem is because it is less efficient.

You still progress, its just slower and less efficient.

Good use of stops in automation and changing paths or cooking automation to save hp results in more efficiency and targeting of these objectives.

I am not sure what you want. You want there to be pure automation that is also the most efficient thing that can possibly be done?

Try turning off the auto for the north route or whichever routes give you an issue and get some xp and turn them back on. Become a semi idler.

Or, be pure idle and realize there are moments where that will be inefficient.

I do not think it is that jarring to have moments where some choice must be made to make further runs more efficient or less efficient.

[HotSipOfColdTea]

How is changing the automation for the funnels any different than micro controlling the end of an automation run to progress?

[rexalian2000]

i want to be able to use automation to program my run, changing that run as my priorities change. Which was the core gameplay loop of the game. Delaying automation adds literally NOTHING to the game. I am not argueing against the scaling difficulty ( that was the other poster) i am saying that the scaling tasks need to have their automation threshold lowered so that they can be automated in a reasonable time. 10 runs past that point is not 10 successes and unlocking automation. it will take dozens if not hundreds of runs to get 10 successes on some of those tasks.

I'm not asking for a balance change, i'm not asking to change the scalling, i am asking for faster automation because i want to have the OPTION at least to automate a sub-par run, and right now i don't. i have to check in twice at awkward intervals to do the 2 tasks i can't automate ( efficient or not) because it will take me almost as much time to automate them as it will to actually beat teh existing content.

[HotSipOfColdTea]

I think it is reasonable to be able to choose to "program your run" earlier than 10 runs. I would suggest 5ish I guess, with perhaps a warning of the scaling difficulty on the screen at some point other than just the unlock.

[rexalian2000]

the difference is my runs are 30 minutes long. 20 minutes of them are tasks i will repeat in exactly the same order every time ( one of 2 specific orders) before reaching the part where micromanagement is needed. I want to be able to set those tasks , do something else for 20 minutes, then play the end of the run. Not start the run, have to check in at 10 minutes, again at 15, then again at 20 to play the end of the run.

time has value in real life as well as in games. Lowering the automation limit would allow me to automate the early portion of the run with a couple of clicks and use my 20 minutes somewhere else. Which was the way i was able to play the game chapters 1-4 and which is what attracted me to the game in teh first place. as a man with a full time job , family , pets, and health issues i do not typically sit at my computer more than 10 minutes at a time before needing to leave for 10 - 20 minutes. it MATTERS to me and other busy gamers having to step in and make little adjustments every few minutes.

[HotSipOfColdTea]

I mean, I don't disagree, but I think automation of this kind of task is not a good idea if it is meant to be as permanent progression with scaling sliding difficulty.

I think these should be toggled to try the "challenge" run to get the next level of these funnels.

Although, I am going to point out you can do that currently, its just tediously locked through the automations menu. I would suggest these not being normal automation buttons but a different section where you toggled to attempt the next level of funnel on the run, which two options, one to lock it on, and one to attempt it only for the next run.

[rexalian2000]

you can do it currently but, to my point, not until you've unlocked that automation to toggle on. i was almost through chapter 9 before i could unlock the automation of the first funnel .

[Simbu]

I got the automation of the second island funnel pretty early since I needed it to clear the boss there, and eventually switched the order of island 1 and 2, so I have just reached chapter 9, and can automate the first island funnel. The third island so far seems that I will be able to automate about the same time as the other tasks I am clearing.

Definitely agree the first island is a bit hard to get to the unlocking state, but it really wouldn't have made much of a difference since I would have failed if I had tried to automate it sooner. The others don't seem to have that problem (for me anyway)

As far as if you should automate or not... it seems really hard to automate a funnel if its the first island you are going to in a run, and I imagine the best way for pushing levels to the extreme will eventually be to make the one you want to level up the last island you visit, so you will need to tweak them on or off based on that. Not sure since I haven't gotten to that point yet, but that seems to be the way things are going currently.

[Gniller]

I did originally consider 5 completions, instead of 10. However I decided against that, as it mattered very little in practice. For reasons that might be spoilers for those that haven't progressed beyond this point yet, but let's just say somewhat into the next chapter unlocking the automation becomes more realistic fairly quick.

A less obvious intention of not unlocking automation too quickly for this new mechanic is to introduce how it scales gradually, before you'll automate past it. That way it aims to get you thinking about how to and if you'll approach it when you reach it at different scaling points. Deciding to skip it a few times can be automated earlier, would you want to.


In regards to another point as to whether or not funnels should be automated. The answer to that question will remain dynamic between runs for a while longer, especially the chapter 7 one. Eventually though, you'll reach a point where it will no longer be an issue for other objectives in the run. But that point is at a fairly late stage of the current content, and to a degree even after that.

[rexalian2000]

10 took me until i had finished the volcano. that is NOT very little difference