Infinite enemies are anti-fun

[Kradolpher]

I've played many tactics games over the years, and a game where every combat has an infinite amount of incoming enemies baffles me terribly.

The dynamic I've grown accustomed to in these games is that you have a limited number of powerful units that have to face a bigger amount of less powerful units. This dynamic varies depending on the type of game (Xcom, Advance wars, FFTactics, Banner Saga, Into the breach...), and some missions in these games will have infinite enemies, the key being SOME and that they don't come EVERY TURN.

I never feel like I have the advantage in this game, every effort I make into getting a handle of the situation vaporizes the second the next wave of enemies appears, that makes me want to rush the objective, which leaves my units exposed. Whenever I fail I never feel like it was I that made a mistake, and when I win I never feel like I had a handle on the situation, so it isn't really satisfying.

Playing this game doesn't feel good

[Tarv]

I feel you. Whether you win or lose it's a stressful design being constantly under pressure where those other games you mentioned can start rough but have arcs where you clear the worst hurdles and start to feel victorious by the end

[Hipnox]

The game kinda clicks when you realize enemy count doesn't matter if you can make a +2/+3 defense move into cover, meaning you can get attacked by several enemies on the same turn and take 0 damage

Ignoring enemies and focusing on the objective is very possible in this game when your average move reduces all incoming damage by 3/4

[Wrayday]

It's absolutely in the spirit of the game. But the game has issues that cause problems.

Shot Gun being 1 range - being counter hit by big sword guys.
Not being able to target enemies above or below you.
straight line firing arcs.
defensive cover...... I ran one of my guys around a wall the enemy was hiding behind. So it was now Me, Dude, Wall.... and the guy got the defensive bonus of the wall.

[BlackjackGT]

I babbled in another thread that if the rescued hostages picked up say a secondary pistol or a sword to throw and joined our party just for the map duration, and added into our units mix, then maybe the reinforcements battles could feel more fair if we players got our own grunt, rescued reinforcements too. Whether we controlled them, or they were AI-controlled.

In some of the more complicated missions (Convoy; reach the exit) at times there are like 20-30 enemy units across the map, and eventully it's just a complete log jam.

[ザ ル]

Originally posted by Kradolpher:

I've played many tactics games over the years, and a game where every combat has an infinite amount of incoming enemies baffles me terribly.

+1

[reveur81]

Just focus on the objectives. The infinite ennemies are the clock system.

[Scase is KING of Narwhals]

Originally posted by Hipnox:

The game kinda clicks when you realize enemy count doesn't matter if you can make a +2/+3 defense move into cover, meaning you can get attacked by several enemies on the same turn and take 0 damage

Ignoring enemies and focusing on the objective is very possible in this game when your average move reduces all incoming damage by 3/4

This is it right here. You cant play this game like a slow paced xcom, you have to constantly be moving/pushing to maintain your dodge/cover defences, as well as push for the objective.

It's weird, but it's more of an "action" tactics, than a standard one. Also, syncing is a huge part of succeeding.

[gromenawer]

Originally posted by Wrayday:

It's absolutely in the spirit of the game. But the game has issues that cause problems.

Shot Gun being 1 range - being counter hit by big sword guys.
Not being able to target enemies above or below you.
straight line firing arcs.
defensive cover...... I ran one of my guys around a wall the enemy was hiding behind. So it was now Me, Dude, Wall.... and the guy got the defensive bonus of the wall.

Yes; when you are flanking an enemy and he still get cover bonus anyway is melting my brain every time.

[Nuclear Kangaroo]

Originally posted by Kradolpher:

I've played many tactics games over the years, and a game where every combat has an infinite amount of incoming enemies baffles me terribly.

The dynamic I've grown accustomed to in these games is that you have a limited number of powerful units that have to face a bigger amount of less powerful units. This dynamic varies depending on the type of game (Xcom, Advance wars, FFTactics, Banner Saga, Into the breach...), and some missions in these games will have infinite enemies, the key being SOME and that they don't come EVERY TURN.

I never feel like I have the advantage in this game, every effort I make into getting a handle of the situation vaporizes the second the next wave of enemies appears, that makes me want to rush the objective, which leaves my units exposed. Whenever I fail I never feel like it was I that made a mistake, and when I win I never feel like I had a handle on the situation, so it isn't really satisfying.

Playing this game doesn't feel good

Into the Breach has infinite enemies and it works, focus on the objectives

[BlackjackGT]

Thing is, Into the Breach has lots of terraforming and abilities to wash away enemies by drowning them in water, knocking them off the map (I was disappointed this game's grappling winch drone doesn''t let you drop enemies into oblivion), dropping them down environmental holes/cracks, etc. I find those features make the infinite enemies more reasonable to deal with.

The MST demo at least doesn't model really any of that stuff, aside from blowing up some boxes and cover, which I don't know really qualifies as terraforming per se.

As I babbled in another thread, if the point of all the promised missions variety is just to make us Rush/Kite entire maps (which did work for me on the Reach the Exit mission, but I can't say it was much fun) to reach the objective point and do as little combat as possible, what's the fun in that? I love the combat in this, I really don't want the SP campaign to be something that's making me rush past combat to just reach objective tiles because the maps enemy-flooded constantly.

And I'm saying this as someone who thoroughly enjoys the demo and plans to get this game on day 1. :)

[Hipnox]

Originally posted by Nuclear Kangaroo:

Into the Breach has infinite enemies and it works, focus on the objectives

Hmm.. no?

ITB has a specific limit to how many enemy units can exist on the board at any given time. It's one of the reasons why fire damage and ice is so powerful. Enemies encased in ice count towards the unit limit (partially) and flaming enemies that have 1 HP remaining are essentially dead but still count towards the limit, thereby preventing new Vek from spawning.

Also there's an entire mechanic dedicated to preventing new enemies from spawning,

[Hipnox]

Originally posted by BlackjackGT:

Thing is, Into the Breach has lots of terraforming and abilities to wash away enemies by drowning them in water, knocking them off the map (I was disappointed this game's grappling winch drone doesn''t let you drop enemies into oblivion), dropping them down environmental holes/cracks, etc. I find those features make the infinite enemies more reasonable to deal with.

Yeah, I was trying out the demo for Tactical Breaching Wizards, and in that game you can instantly defeat enemy units by making them fall off the play area, regardless of HP.

It created a very ITB feel where you would use one unit to move the enemy around and set them up to have another unit to push them out a window.

I do feel like outside of the sync mechanic, the game does not provide much in the ways of opportunities to take advantage of the environment to defeat powerful foes, which is one of the most fun aspects of games like ITB.

Best I was able to do was use Fio's grappling drone to place an enemy on the platform that was gonna sink during the boss fight, but that's about it.

Haven't tried pushing enemies into the path of the convoy yet though.

[Stargoat]

Originally posted by BlackjackGT:

Thing is, Into the Breach has lots of terraforming and abilities to wash away enemies by drowning them in water, knocking them off the map (I was disappointed this game's grappling winch drone doesn''t let you drop enemies into oblivion), dropping them down environmental holes/cracks, etc. I find those features make the infinite enemies more reasonable to deal with.

Where ITB is largely about enemy displacement tactics, Metal Slug Tactics is more about exploiting the synergies between your characters.

This extends beyond synchronised attacks, but also ability use - for example, Fio's teleport ability can be used not only on enemies, but on allies as well. You can use this to, say, extend Eri's range to get a good angle on some mooks - and if Eri's also been buffed by Marco's ability, that's a lot of firepower. When you level up, put a bit of thought into how the new abilities interact not only with what that unit is capable of, but also how that could be used to benefit another unit.

As far as respawning enemies go, they're not on every mission type - sometimes you just gotta play the objective, which I think is a good reflection of certain (but not all) segments of the run 'n' gun Metal Slugs.