Melee weapons need a buff

[a passerby]

Tatsumaki stupidly has friendly fire, and the other melee weapons just don't provide enough of a bonus to make the limited range worth it. The limited range also outright stops you from attacking the desert robot boss unless you have a bonus move or action to get you out of the way of its attack range after.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

You can also use ranged weapons to activate guerilla.

But ranged weapons are generally weaker and do not benefit from the "No Cover" passive by default.

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

So why don't you point out the "right mods and skills" that give melee weapons an edge

I did just that with the video, but you categorically refused to watch it, so... figure them out yourself, scrub?

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

And since you brought up the "right mods and skills", why wouldn't I just use a displacement skill like Tarma's Giant Knuckle to move an enemy out of cover, thereby rendering this perk pointless?

Because such skills have limitations of their own, including the adrenaline amount your character has.

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

I said TWICE already that melee weapons are NOT useless

And you clearly do not believe that, as you clearly stated that you find them too weak - which in turn implies that you do not want to use them. Ergo, you find them useless.

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

tell me why melee weapons have enough of an edge to render them preferable to using ranged ones.

That is the thing, though: each loadout has their strengths and weaknesses. Like I have been trying to tell you (politely at first, then less politely as you kept getting more defensive), it is up to you to experiment and figure out which loadouts work best for you. Do not let one bad run discourage you.

[Tonyu]

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

8 cells is very little compared to other ranged weapons that have 4-5 range in 4 directions, effectively getting 16-20 cells in comparison. Tatsumaki also only deals 3 damage which is pretty terrible.

I just finished Generals difficulty again with Tatsumaki and I just have to say it's amazing. This time I used Trevor with Tatsumaki, and Leona and Clark on classic loadout. 8 cells is large considering that you have more positioning options to trigger sync with your two other teammates. And of course the ability to damage and kill multiple enemies.

Consider what I did: I position Trevor to 2-3 enemies within Tatsumaki range, either by just walking or using Shinobi. Clark throws another enemy to Trevor, triggering synch and dealing 4 dmg to all because of Clark's +1 dmg from Argentine Back Breaker. Leona shoots at another enemy, triggering another synch and dealing 3 dmg to all. Then finally Trevor attacks dealing another 3 dmg to all. That's a total of 10 dmg to multiple enemies from Tatsumaki alone, and it doesn't even count the dmg from Clark and Leona's attacks and Afterimages. And this helped me a lot when dealing with the hordes of high HP enemies in Generals difficulty.

Oh and of course consider if you get dmg increase weapon mods. In one of my runs I got a +1 dmg and Flame to Tatsumaki, setting your surrounding on fire for an extra 3 damage.

As for the other melee weapons, 5 dmg is a lot considering most guns only deal 3-4 dmg. You're able to 1 shot a 5HP enemy, or sych kill a 6-9HP enemy without any mods. HOWEVER I do admit that the latter isn't always the case especially if the enemy is in a terrible position that would only give you a few dodge.

Now that I think about it, I do think they need to buff melee weapons. I think one buff they can give to melee weapons is that you get more dodge and/or adrenaline compared to range weapons. Meaning you get more nearby medium to dark green cells and you don't need to travel far to get enough adrenaline and dodge. That way you get more safe movement options, and you can safely engage nearby enemies. You don't get forced to engage far away enemies just because that's where the high adrenaline and dodge are.

Also another buff I would suggest is using melee weapons gives the character more movement range to compensate for the lack of attack range, and also gives the character a way to run away from danger if you're in a bad position.

[a passerby]

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

Because such skills have limitations of their own, including the adrenaline amount your character has.

Uh huh. So why did YOU bring it up at all? Are you even paying attention?😂

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

And you clearly do not believe that, as you clearly stated that you find them too weak - which in turn implies that you do not want to use them. Ergo, you find them useless.

Since you clearly cannot read nor understand basic words, this is pointless to continue.

[a passerby]

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

8 cells is large considering that you have more positioning options to trigger sync with your two other teammates.

It's objectively not large when compared to the 16-20 cell ranged weapons have.

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

And of course the ability to damage and kill multiple enemies.

1) Tatsumaki does a measly 3 damage. 2) It requires you to be sandwiched between enemy characters.
Since you've also completed a run on General, you would know that it's a challenge to kill enemies in 1 turn, and so safer strategies are required, especially in the first map of the run. The trade off of attacking multiple enemies as opposed to using a grenadier from elevation, or a ranged character from behind cover just isn't worth it.

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

Now that I think about it, I do think they need to buff melee weapons. I think one buff they can give to melee weapons is that you get more dodge and/or adrenaline compared to range weapons. Meaning you get more nearby medium to dark green cells and you don't need to travel far to get enough adrenaline and dodge. That way you get more safe movement options, and you can safely engage nearby enemies. You don't get forced to engage far away enemies just because that's where the high adrenaline and dodge are.

Also another buff I would suggest is using melee weapons gives the character more movement range to compensate for the lack of attack range, and also gives the character a way to run away from danger if you're in a bad position.

These are the same buffs I think is sorely needed.

Here's the thing about melee weapons: in order to attack an enemy, you have to be directly adjacent to them. This means that you oftentimes cannot get the maximum amount of dodge or adrenaline that you would normally get from moving with a ranged character who still maintains the ability to attack. This is a MASSIVE disadvantage on top of the risks of your character being in a vulnerable position. It's ironic that melee characters that require you to get up close end up moving less than a ranged character.

Melee weapons that deal 5 dmg are powerful, but IMO they don't work very well once you get to difficulties at captain and above because finishing off enemies in 1 turn is much harder.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

Uh huh. So why did YOU bring it up at all?

What? YOU brought up "Giant Knuckle". I pointed out that it is actually not better - at least, not without upgrades and passives - than a starting melee weapon since it has its own limitations, such as an adrenaline point cost.

How about you start paying attention yourself?

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

Since you clearly cannot read nor understand basic words, this is pointless to continue.

More like you just cannot behave yourself. I mean, you cannot even watch a short video!

Git good or git lost, scrub.

[a passerby]

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

What? You brought up "Giant Knuckle" first. Are you paying attention to your own posts

Let's see, shall we?

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

Melee weapons are very powerful - particularly during Sync Attacks - and can become even more powerful with the right mods and skills

YOU brought up mods and skills in a topic about the utility of ranged vs melee.

I even reiterated AGAIN with the following:

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

This post is about melee vs ranged and how ranged weapons are just better. So why don't you point out the "right mods and skills" that give melee weapons an edge, but not ranged weapons?

But let's go on to address the rest of the idiocy in your comments.

Me: "I said TWICE already that melee weapons are NOT useless, but only that they need a buff"
You: "And you clearly do not believe that, as you clearly stated that you find them too weak - which in turn implies that you do not want to use them. Ergo, you find them useless."

At this point, ChatGPT demonstrates better intelligence than you.

But here's the best part:

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

That is the thing, though: each loadout has their strengths and weaknesses. Like I have been trying to tell you

DURR BOTH HEV STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES. No sh*t, genius. And what's dumb is you literally pointed out ZERO weaknesses in melee weapons in any of your replies. That's what you've "been trying to tell" me? Are you kidding? Point out a single part in any of your replies where you acknowledged the weaknesses of melee weapons. 😂
So you can understand that a weapon has strength and weaknesses, and yet you continuously insisted that I supposedly consider melee weapons "useless" because I pointed out its weaknesses? What is wrong with you?

And even then, that isn't even the point. The point which I've already made, which if you actually learned how to read, is:

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

I'm saying that ranged weapons are better in most scenarios due to their greater utility

So let me try and put this in simple words for you to understand. Both melee and ranged weapons have their strengths and weaknesses. But the strengths skew in favour of ranged weapons.
Do you understand now? It took you HOW MANY comments to get on track? Holy sh*t.

[Potato]

Melee hits multiple targets. Ranged usually hits 1 target unless they multi-hit or have AoE (double pistol and grenades, respectively.) That alone warrants melee's existence and their quite powerful damage (most can Ignore Cover too!).

They're so good that i always have a melee character in a run because of the chance of triggering 2-4 melee syncs on a cluster of enemies to completely delete them WHILE giving said melee class a Special Action to mess with is a godly dopamine rush. TL;DR; Gitgudder.

[a passerby]

Origineel geplaatst door Potato:

Melee hits multiple targets. Ranged usually hits 1 target unless they multi-hit or have AoE (double pistol and grenades, respectively.) That alone warrants melee's existence and their quite powerful damage (most can Ignore Cover too!).

They're so good that i always have a melee character in a run because of the chance of triggering 2-4 melee syncs on a cluster of enemies to completely delete them WHILE giving said melee class a Special Action to mess with is a godly dopamine rush. TL;DR; Gitgudder.

Most melee weapons do not hit multiple cells. Ranged weapons also have aoe hits in the form of grenades. You get a 4 cell aoe, but with an attack radius of 16 cells. This means that the benefit of the aoe is going to be realised a lot more often than any other melee weapon, and allows for more frequent syncs without the unique circumstance of encountering enemies conveniently bunched together.

Ignore cover perk is also only activated against characters behind cover, and really just guarantees 2 dmg since that's all the damage that cover mitigates.

And unlike Tatsumaki, grenades have the added benefit of ignoring obstacles/elevation, a benefit that's going to be realised in every map. Obstacles/elevation prevents damage completely, while cover only subtracts 2 dmg. The better perk is obvious here.

I definitely won't be running Tatsumaki in the hopes that enemies will bunch together, and especially not in General where higher hp enemies are far more common.

[Tonyu]

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

8 cells is large considering that you have more positioning options to trigger sync with your two other teammates.

It's objectively not large when compared to the 16-20 cell ranged weapons have.

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

And of course the ability to damage and kill multiple enemies.

1) Tatsumaki does a measly 3 damage. 2) It requires you to be sandwiched between enemy characters.
Since you've also completed a run on General, you would know that it's a challenge to kill enemies in 1 turn, and so safer strategies are required, especially in the first map of the run. The trade off of attacking multiple enemies as opposed to using a grenadier from elevation, or a ranged character from behind cover just isn't worth it.

You need to be highly efficient in higher difficulties, that's the point. At first I found it hard, but later on I got the hang of it and understood how to play properly in General difficulty. And like I said earlier, Tatsumaki may only deal 3 damage but can deal up to 9 damage when properly synched. I can kill multiple enemies in just one turn even on the first map.

Yes Tatsumaki requires you to be sandwiched between characters, yes you need to build safer strategies, and that's literally the point. That's the challenge. Some people may not feel like playing that way, and prefer guns over Tatsu, and that's fine. Similarly other people like thinking up alternative strategies.

I wish I could record my runs so I can show you clearly how I use Tatsumaki.

But just to clarify, I'm just talking about Tatsumaki. I still have some issues with the other melee weapons, but I'm currently trying them out and maybe I'll change my mind.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Origineel geplaatst door Potato:

Melee hits multiple targets.

Not all melee weapons, to be fair, but they can be made to. That being said, Trevor's Perfect Control loadout has him use a melee weapon that by default can not only hit two targets at once, but apply "Mind Control" to them! That is how I managed to unlock the "My Own Little Army" achievement.

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

I wish I could record my runs so I can show you clearly how I use Tatsumaki.

Maybe that is for the best, as they categorically refused to watch a video I shared that showed just how powerful the Tatsumaki could be. -_-

[Tonyu]

So I've tried out all the other melee weapons, and I have to say that the Wrench is the worst. I thought it would be good since it's only available to Fio as her most expensive loadout, but turns out it's not good at all.

It only deals 4 damage to a single target, and it's main ability is Shred which just makes the target lose benefits from cover for the remainder of the turn. Meaning your teammates can deal full damage to the enemy in cover. This is very useless because you rarely encounter enemies in cover, and if you do it's really not that big of a deal that you'd need such a specific weapon for such a rare occasion. IMO they should've made the wrench deal double damage to vehicles instead, since you encounter a lot of vehicles in higher difficulties. And also it IS a wrench.

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

Not all melee weapons, to be fair, but they can be made to. That being said, Trevor's Perfect Control loadout has him use a melee weapon that by default can not only hit two targets at once, but apply "Mind Control" to them! That is how I managed to unlock the "My Own Little Army" achievement.

Maybe that is for the best, as they categorically refused to watch a video I shared that showed just how powerful the Tatsumaki could be. -_-

That knife is good but the issue I have with it is it's attack pattern which deals damage to the enemy in front and the enemy to it's left. It's such an awkward pattern IMO.

[a passerby]

Origineel geplaatst door Tonyu:

You need to be highly efficient in higher difficulties, that's the point. At first I found it hard, but later on I got the hang of it and understood how to play properly in General difficulty. And like I said earlier, Tatsumaki may only deal 3 damage but can deal up to 9 damage when properly synched. I can kill multiple enemies in just one turn even on the first map.

Yes Tatsumaki requires you to be sandwiched between characters, yes you need to build safer strategies, and that's literally the point. That's the challenge. Some people may not feel like playing that way, and prefer guns over Tatsu, and that's fine. Similarly other people like thinking up alternative strategies.

I wish I could record my runs so I can show you clearly how I use Tatsumaki.

But just to clarify, I'm just talking about Tatsumaki. I still have some issues with the other melee weapons, but I'm currently trying them out and maybe I'll change my mind.

Oh I don’t deny how Tasumaki CAN be used. But you’ve pointed out the one big problem with it: it’s too situational. I can use ranged weapons all the time. But melee requires me to get up close, and I need to make sure I can kill the target, or accumulate enough dodge to mitigate the damage from the following turn.

Ranged weapons allows you to perform syncs on sparsely located enemies from 4-5 cells in 4 directions, but melee limits you 1.

I can make melee work, but 9/10 times, I’m going to have a much easier time using ranged. And that’s why I believe melee needs a buff so it becomes more of a matter of preference than one of optimisation.

[Tonyu]

Origineel geplaatst door a passerby:

Oh I don’t deny how Tasumaki CAN be used. But you’ve pointed out the one big problem with it: it’s too situational. I can use ranged weapons all the time. But melee requires me to get up close, and I need to make sure I can kill the target, or accumulate enough dodge to mitigate the damage from the following turn.

Ranged weapons allows you to perform syncs on sparsely located enemies from 4-5 cells in 4 directions, but melee limits you 1.

I can make melee work, but 9/10 times, I’m going to have a much easier time using ranged. And that’s why I believe melee needs a buff so it becomes more of a matter of preference than one of optimisation.

Are you playing on lower difficulties? Because in General there's a lot of enemies and it's rarely situational in my experience. In fact now I'm just completing all the character epilogues and I'm having a hard time in General using all-range teams.

[JohnnyTheWolf]

Even on lower difficulties, the Tatsumaki is very useful and I have never found myself wishing Trevor had a Handgun instead. In fact, my least favourite loadout is the Ninja one because of the Double Flick Handgun, as it feels rather underwhelming in addition to making Trevor look very silly whenever he turns around to shoot at nothing.

[Tonyu]

Origineel geplaatst door JohnnyTheWolf:

Even on lower difficulties, the Tatsumaki is very useful and I have never found myself wishing Trevor had a Handgun instead. In fact, my least favourite loadout is the Ninja one because of the Double Flick Handgun, as it feels rather underwhelming in addition to making Trevor look very silly whenever he turns around to shoot at nothing.

Yeah flick is kinda useless. I never found a good use for it tbh.