SPOILER - Disguting Unavoidable Decsion

[skaliev]

I absolutely hate that I have no choice wheter I catch the God of the Darkforest or not!
Now the entire eco system of the Dark Forest is dead, and i can not change it.
Worste thing is that in the quest step before, emotinally incested in the dark forest.

Hate this story line.

[Ink]

The chapter 2 skip we will adress (we thought players would see it as a reward more than punishment for thorough exploration). If it doesn't work as intended, it needs fixing, after all.

[Jeff]

I understand why people are upset about this from a roleplaying POV, but I think it also speaks to the strength of the writing and worldbuilding that it feels like such a gut punch. I'm really hoping we'll at least get a chance to address it later in the game, if not rectify it entirely (something that, I'd argue, would be more interesting from a storytelling perspective than allowing us to side with the druid folks in the first place).

[Cat]

"When you make a world like that, you need to predict people going everywhere way before you "want" them to. Because if a player can, a player will. Especially since the main draw that got me to buy this game was "this is a 2d gothic"."

100% this, for a Gothic player, enemies that one shot you isn't' a roadblock, it's a speed bump. We ARE going to explore no matter what, short of blocking the path, so you should keep that in mind, those enemies aren't going to stop us, they will just slow us down.

[orz]

I really want to know if I could save Deimo though

[divinian]

I just read about this on reddit. I'm sorry devs but this completely soured the game that I was up until this point genuinely enjoying. It's not even about the boar spirit; it's the piglets. Not giving players a choice on something like this in an RPG (ROLE PLAYING!!) game is such a weird decision.

Please consider adding a way for players to have some manner of choice in this questline. I don't see myself playing this game any further as forcing me to kill piglets will ruin my immersion, and I'm not playing this game purely for game mechanics.

[Tiruin]

Originally posted by Mirodin333:

I get what they are going for storywise, but it never feels good to feel railroaded like that in an rpg.

Thing is my character met bonded first before joining nemeton. I thought it was actually a third faction. I was down with them, accepting their way of life. That character would never betray them like that.

So with that you kinda kill player agency. Its no longer my character.

Yeah this was my whole experience :C (I also did NOT know joining the Bonded is the literal Act 2, so since i had joined them in Act 1, it went straight to Act 3--apparently you don't lose out from this, but the jump was really concerning for a bit until I learned by experience)

Then again the golden/good ending is worth it and does vindicate this. It's just so weird because after doing the storyline THIS way, there is a very specific direction the narrative goes as if you're 1. First with the factions than 2. with the Bonded (and thus realizing the harm only after the factions do their thing)

Which was super weird for me but I did the effort for said good ending Thanks Drivanius u_u
Which is a good thing that you've All The Time Forever before the endgame//Act 5.

Still feel bad about the piglets though--that one good ending cinematic could emphasize that WAY more (but also it actually does make sense in the end, it hurts to go through though!). This leads me to feel like more...awareness/choices in dialogue would've actually worked out come Act 3.

[Ink]

Originally posted by divinian:

I just read about this on reddit. I'm sorry devs but this completely soured the game that I was up until this point genuinely enjoying. It's not even about the boar spirit; it's the piglets. Not giving players a choice on something like this in an RPG (ROLE PLAYING!!) game is such a weird decision.

Please consider adding a way for players to have some manner of choice in this questline. I don't see myself playing this game any further as forcing me to kill piglets will ruin my immersion, and I'm not playing this game purely for game mechanics.

The piglets specifically we're considering just taking out if the players feel that it's just overkill.
Adding a wholly different choice here concerning the spirit itself would explode the scope of necessary alternative content as you can imagine. Plot-wise it's a necessary event for the setup of the rest of the chapters.
The endings (especially the hidden good one) deal with the divinities specifically and give a chance to make things right. Not just for the boar. (Edit: I just now realized how much I have been repeating myself, sorry for that)

We're open to suggestions on how to make this whole plotpoint work better overall that we can realistically still do. It was meant to hurt (I am also a big piglet fan), but not to sour.

[Tiruin]

Originally posted by Ink:

We're open to suggestions on how to make this whole plotpoint work better overall that we can realistically still do. It was meant to hurt (I am also a big piglet fan), but not to sour.

As someone who finished everything (except having that iron save T_T Augh...and the 100 silver Pit achievement), I really REALLY feel like the writing in precisely Act 3 could do this better. Since the narrative dialogue is done in cinematics there, vs the usual 'click this random person or person of importance' to find out choices/ideas, it hits different because of how linear those sequences of events go. Hints to important locations aren't as fleshed out (e.g. the different Moors) or like, spoken that much in-game, but also the aftermath of that cinematic time in Act 3 or whom to connect to or approach in that case.
(For example, it's a tiny note with the two ruin raiders[?] who you encounter outside the primeval forest in Act 1 [if you find them camped outside], that you can meet in Act 3 or so [I've never done Act 2], and have the choice to kill them or let them go, and Diemo responds to that, alongside that event hinting that we've no idea if those piglets are those we just cared about or not! ; this example of agency isn't...really present in going about the occurrences of Act 3 in the context of the Divinity: There aren't responses as if you're Bonded over the agency of the faction squad you're with, instead deferring to them--or resistance to their stubbornness [which is also a segue on Celtic faith and culture especially given that ruin raider event earlier on {I assume that's an Act 2 thing, as you've to go to the Mother's Roots for that one quest}]. Other issues include the aftermath of the camp? I've no idea how Bertine stuck in there, meeting her in Act 4, as the aftermath of the camp given visual storytelling just shows me a ton of footsteps running out the primeval forest [the Refuge is inaccessible], compared to the tavern which in itself is already compelling (though NONE of the Bonded even mentioned her in there?? Or if they did it was a very general note).

So the major issue has a good solution: More writing, more choices therein (but also the piglets, the smol defenseless {1x stringy meat loot} piglets).
Act 3 basically goes to emphasize we didn't have a say compared to as if we had tried and were overruled especially if we feel more for the Bonded.

[divinian]

Originally posted by Ink:

Originally posted by divinian:

I just read about this on reddit. I'm sorry devs but this completely soured the game that I was up until this point genuinely enjoying. It's not even about the boar spirit; it's the piglets. Not giving players a choice on something like this in an RPG (ROLE PLAYING!!) game is such a weird decision.

Please consider adding a way for players to have some manner of choice in this questline. I don't see myself playing this game any further as forcing me to kill piglets will ruin my immersion, and I'm not playing this game purely for game mechanics.

The piglets specifically we're considering just taking out if the players feel that it's just overkill.
Adding a wholly different choice here concerning the spirit itself would explode the scope of necessary alternative content as you can imagine. Plot-wise it's a necessary event for the setup of the rest of the chapters.
The endings (especially the hidden good one) deal with the divinities specifically and give a chance to make things right. Not just for the boar. (Edit: I just now realized how much I have been repeating myself, sorry for that)

We're open to suggestions on how to make this whole plotpoint work better overall that we can realistically still do. It was meant to hurt (I am also a big piglet fan), but not to sour.

I think taking the piglets out would be a great change. I’m not against the story of drova taking a turn like this, but I as the player should have a way of handling this series of events in a way that is consistent with my character. Thank you for considering!

[dewalar]

Originally posted by divinian:

Originally posted by Ink:

The piglets specifically we're considering just taking out if the players feel that it's just overkill.
Adding a wholly different choice here concerning the spirit itself would explode the scope of necessary alternative content as you can imagine. Plot-wise it's a necessary event for the setup of the rest of the chapters.
The endings (especially the hidden good one) deal with the divinities specifically and give a chance to make things right. Not just for the boar. (Edit: I just now realized how much I have been repeating myself, sorry for that)

We're open to suggestions on how to make this whole plotpoint work better overall that we can realistically still do. It was meant to hurt (I am also a big piglet fan), but not to sour.

I think taking the piglets out would be a great change. I’m not against the story of drova taking a turn like this, but I as the player should have a way of handling this series of events in a way that is consistent with my character. Thank you for considering!

you need to finish the game true ending, dont judge it halfway.

[divinian]

Originally posted by dewalar:

Originally posted by divinian:

I think taking the piglets out would be a great change. I’m not against the story of drova taking a turn like this, but I as the player should have a way of handling this series of events in a way that is consistent with my character. Thank you for considering!

you need to finish the game true ending, dont judge it halfway.

That’s fair. I’m just worried about souring my experience. I could drop the game right now and have positive memories. Or I could keep playing and against my will kill a bunch of piglets and have negative memories. I read that you can make amends with the boar god, but that doesn’t undo the piglet killing against my will. It’s really the not being given a choice or a voice in this exchange that concerns me. Not the fact that the piglets die itself, to be honest I was kind of expecting that to happen.

[divinian]

Originally posted by Tiruin:

Originally posted by Ink:

We're open to suggestions on how to make this whole plotpoint work better overall that we can realistically still do. It was meant to hurt (I am also a big piglet fan), but not to sour.

As someone who finished everything (except having that iron save T_T Augh...and the 100 silver Pit achievement), I really REALLY feel like the writing in precisely Act 3 could do this better. Since the narrative dialogue is done in cinematics there, vs the usual 'click this random person or person of importance' to find out choices/ideas, it hits different because of how linear those sequences of events go. Hints to important locations aren't as fleshed out (e.g. the different Moors) or like, spoken that much in-game, but also the aftermath of that cinematic time in Act 3 or whom to connect to or approach in that case.
(For example, it's a tiny note with the two ruin raiders[?] who you encounter outside the primeval forest in Act 1 [if you find them camped outside], that you can meet in Act 3 or so [I've never done Act 2], and have the choice to kill them or let them go, and Diemo responds to that, alongside that event hinting that we've no idea if those piglets are those we just cared about or not! ; this example of agency isn't...really present in going about the occurrences of Act 3 in the context of the Divinity: There aren't responses as if you're Bonded over the agency of the faction squad you're with, instead deferring to them--or resistance to their stubbornness [which is also a segue on Celtic faith and culture especially given that ruin raider event earlier on {I assume that's an Act 2 thing, as you've to go to the Mother's Roots for that one quest}]. Other issues include the aftermath of the camp? I've no idea how Bertine stuck in there, meeting her in Act 4, as the aftermath of the camp given visual storytelling just shows me a ton of footsteps running out the primeval forest [the Refuge is inaccessible], compared to the tavern which in itself is already compelling (though NONE of the Bonded even mentioned her in there?? Or if they did it was a very general note).

So the major issue has a good solution: More writing, more choices therein (but also the piglets, the smol defenseless {1x stringy meat loot} piglets).
Act 3 basically goes to emphasize we didn't have a say compared to as if we had tried and were overruled especially if we feel more for the Bonded.

I totally resonate with everything you said. Especially “tried and overruled”. The issue here is about our characters choices being forced. I don’t have an issue with my choice ultimately not preventing a thing I was trying to prevent. But at least then I tried and ultimately have to accept it was out of my control.

[wiher154]

Originally posted by Ink:

Originally posted by divinian:

I just read about this on reddit. I'm sorry devs but this completely soured the game that I was up until this point genuinely enjoying. It's not even about the boar spirit; it's the piglets. Not giving players a choice on something like this in an RPG (ROLE PLAYING!!) game is such a weird decision.

Please consider adding a way for players to have some manner of choice in this questline. I don't see myself playing this game any further as forcing me to kill piglets will ruin my immersion, and I'm not playing this game purely for game mechanics.

The piglets specifically we're considering just taking out if the players feel that it's just overkill.
Adding a wholly different choice here concerning the spirit itself would explode the scope of necessary alternative content as you can imagine. Plot-wise it's a necessary event for the setup of the rest of the chapters.
The endings (especially the hidden good one) deal with the divinities specifically and give a chance to make things right. Not just for the boar. (Edit: I just now realized how much I have been repeating myself, sorry for that)

We're open to suggestions on how to make this whole plotpoint work better overall that we can realistically still do. It was meant to hurt (I am also a big piglet fan), but not to sour.

The only plotwise/rpg mistake you made, in my opinion - not letting us side with forest buddies till the end. Yep it's not that trivial as other two camps, but i think it's possible to imagine. Primeval Forest camp even give you their armor!
Anyway, great game, don't let player's frustration get to you.

[sekvy]

Originally posted by Saileri:

After getting the task of going after the Divinity, I sprinted to the Bonded to see if you can do something about it, and honestly, seeing every single of them laugh at the warning saying you can't harm a god was a bit vexing :v Glad there was any interaction at least. Safe to say, I proved them wrong and felt a bit less bad about it. Gained their trust and even become one of them for them to completely ignore my input.

I also ran back to the bonded and tried to warn them, but I trusted their words on the matter. I had this idea that the mighty boar did know what could happen and could have not let us through the forest, it had a plan and sacrificed itself for a grander purpose, even so it was in its nature to fight with all it had.
After all the spirit guided me to be there in the first place, bonded me with the spark and the spark didn't go away - which I took as a sign that I hadn't betrayed the boar (yet). Well just my imaginations, I had faith in the boar :) maybe doesn't fit the plot, also in this imagination I took Demio's anger and hopelessness as a lack of belief in the mighty boar he said it himself, why didn't the spark leave me? even though he was so sure when I warned them.

[Chris]

Originally posted by divinian:

Originally posted by Tiruin:

As someone who finished everything (except having that iron save T_T Augh...and the 100 silver Pit achievement), I really REALLY feel like the writing in precisely Act 3 could do this better. Since the narrative dialogue is done in cinematics there, vs the usual 'click this random person or person of importance' to find out choices/ideas, it hits different because of how linear those sequences of events go. Hints to important locations aren't as fleshed out (e.g. the different Moors) or like, spoken that much in-game, but also the aftermath of that cinematic time in Act 3 or whom to connect to or approach in that case.
(For example, it's a tiny note with the two ruin raiders[?] who you encounter outside the primeval forest in Act 1 [if you find them camped outside], that you can meet in Act 3 or so [I've never done Act 2], and have the choice to kill them or let them go, and Diemo responds to that, alongside that event hinting that we've no idea if those piglets are those we just cared about or not! ; this example of agency isn't...really present in going about the occurrences of Act 3 in the context of the Divinity: There aren't responses as if you're Bonded over the agency of the faction squad you're with, instead deferring to them--or resistance to their stubbornness [which is also a segue on Celtic faith and culture especially given that ruin raider event earlier on {I assume that's an Act 2 thing, as you've to go to the Mother's Roots for that one quest}]. Other issues include the aftermath of the camp? I've no idea how Bertine stuck in there, meeting her in Act 4, as the aftermath of the camp given visual storytelling just shows me a ton of footsteps running out the primeval forest [the Refuge is inaccessible], compared to the tavern which in itself is already compelling (though NONE of the Bonded even mentioned her in there?? Or if they did it was a very general note).

So the major issue has a good solution: More writing, more choices therein (but also the piglets, the smol defenseless {1x stringy meat loot} piglets).
Act 3 basically goes to emphasize we didn't have a say compared to as if we had tried and were overruled especially if we feel more for the Bonded.

I totally resonate with everything you said. Especially “tried and overruled”. The issue here is about our characters choices being forced. I don’t have an issue with my choice ultimately not preventing a thing I was trying to prevent. But at least then I tried and ultimately have to accept it was out of my control.

Yes, this 100 %.
Being able to object and be ignored would make this feel much better imo.
So what I imagine here is something like:
- Our expedition leader (Mombert, in my case as I joined Nemeton) waits until we stand before the tree to tell us he wants to capture the boar
- We can object at that point
- But it's to late - Mombert starts the ritual anyway
- The fight starts and we can either help or just watch in horror

It would still make us complicit (if that matters for the later story - I just arrived at this point), but leave the player with much more agency.


Or alternatively - if it's important for the story that our character agrees with the plan and betrays the forest camp (which is a completely valid creative decision btw) - then I think for that to work the expedition leader would have to be someone we are likely to trust. An issue for me was that Mombert - at this point in the story - is hardly a character. We simply don't know him. While we (in the intended order of chapters) just spend a lot of time with the people in the forst camp. So naturally the decision that our character makes in that moment would not resonate with a lot of players.