This skill has no uses remaining?

[ExoticBomj]

Are skills running out now? This is very bad, this did not happen in the first game!

[Shylaar]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

I really enjoyed running cleric in the previous game, so I tried it here, and yep immediately ran into that issue, even with the skill Thorns as a secondary damage dealer. 50 uses of punisher goes too fast when you need 2-3 hits on a regular enemy.

Cleric's entire schtick is being able to heal a bunch with high HP to outlast enemies, the class literally starts with TWO heal skills. How are you supposed to outlast enemies with such limited uses of an attack?

By getting more attack skills through rerolling or getting a skill that makes your heals do damage. Your first priority on any run with any character should be to get new skills.

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von uni790:

There's also the fact that the cleric class for example, only has one skill that deals damage, if the game can't be bothered to give you a second one(with the proper damage type(s)), then you will run out, fairly quickly.

I really enjoyed running cleric in the previous game, so I tried it here, and yep immediately ran into that issue, even with the skill Thorns as a secondary damage dealer. 50 uses of punisher goes too fast when you need 2-3 hits on a regular enemy.

Cleric's entire schtick is being able to heal a bunch with high HP to outlast enemies, the class literally starts with TWO heal skills. How are you supposed to outlast enemies with such limited uses of an attack?

You know soulstones are a per-run resource now, right? 3 fights should get you enough for like 14 rerolls, which is much, much more than enough to replace your escape skill with an attack you can use.

I've played one cleric Run with no corpse parts attached and cleared highway.

Anyway, I've also made a guide to not running out of skill uses since it seems to be a common new player issue:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3136710070

[shinami]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Anyway, I've also made a guide to not running out of skill uses since it seems to be a common new player issue:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3136710070

Try running the Temple and running into multiple Basilisks(Slow/Petrify) or Medusas(Petrify with priority rune). Seriously, encounter 2 or 3 in one floor. Then take a look at how many skill uses you have left. Also, including "because apparently people struggle with this" is passive aggressive as hell. Don't be surprised if people pick a fight with you.

[Basilllisk]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

I really enjoyed running cleric in the previous game, so I tried it here, and yep immediately ran into that issue, even with the skill Thorns as a secondary damage dealer. 50 uses of punisher goes too fast when you need 2-3 hits on a regular enemy.

Cleric's entire schtick is being able to heal a bunch with high HP to outlast enemies, the class literally starts with TWO heal skills. How are you supposed to outlast enemies with such limited uses of an attack?

You know soulstones are a per-run resource now, right? 3 fights should get you enough for like 14 rerolls, which is much, much more than enough to replace your escape skill with an attack you can use.

I've played one cleric Run with no corpse parts attached and cleared highway.

Anyway, I've also made a guide to not running out of skill uses since it seems to be a common new player issue:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3136710070

Yeah the "because apparently people struggle" comes across as passive aggressive.

I did in fact switch out my escape with a damage skill, if you read my message you'd have seen I picked up a secondary skill for damage. I managed to make it work recently when I tried again and cleared the first dungeon twice now with cleric. I still think it's very much an issue.

As I mentioned before, part of the Cleric's intended play style is large amounts of healing to outlast opponents and survive while having a bit less damage output, which inherently comes from sacrificing 20-40% of your skill slots for healing instead of damage or support. This is directly at odds with the limited skill use since less overall damage output inbetween camps drastically effects this intended playstyle among others. Outlasting opponents and negative statuses is worthless when you run out of damage output. This effectively forces any class you want to play into focusing raw damage over utility and healing.

Buriedbornes is about having fun with the ginormous roster of classes with different playstyles. This skill use system hurts that freedom.

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von shinami:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Anyway, I've also made a guide to not running out of skill uses since it seems to be a common new player issue:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3136710070

Try running the Temple and running into multiple Basilisks(Slow/Petrify) or Medusas(Petrify with priority rune). Seriously, encounter 2 or 3 in one floor. Then take a look at how many skill uses you have left. Also, including "because apparently people struggle with this" is passive aggressive as hell. Don't be surprised if people pick a fight with you.

Temple is a pretty advanced dungeon isn't it? Don't you need to clear another dungeon to access it?

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

You know soulstones are a per-run resource now, right? 3 fights should get you enough for like 14 rerolls, which is much, much more than enough to replace your escape skill with an attack you can use.

I've played one cleric Run with no corpse parts attached and cleared highway.

Anyway, I've also made a guide to not running out of skill uses since it seems to be a common new player issue:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3136710070

Yeah the "because apparently people struggle" comes across as passive aggressive.

I did in fact switch out my escape with a damage skill, if you read my message you'd have seen I picked up a secondary skill for damage. I managed to make it work recently when I tried again and cleared the first dungeon twice now with cleric. I still think it's very much an issue.

As I mentioned before, part of the Cleric's intended play style is large amounts of healing to outlast opponents and survive while having a bit less damage output, which inherently comes from sacrificing 20-40% of your skill slots for healing instead of damage or support. This is directly at odds with the limited skill use since less overall damage output inbetween camps drastically effects this intended playstyle among others. Outlasting opponents and negative statuses is worthless when you run out of damage output. This effectively forces any class you want to play into focusing raw damage over utility and healing.

Buriedbornes is about having fun with the ginormous roster of classes with different playstyles. This skill use system hurts that freedom.

Nothing about cleric has less damage output, where did you get that idea? Martial arts has a burst that scales with healing power, and there are several deadly skills with a self damage drawback you can use more effectively than classes without healing.

[shinami]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Temple is a pretty advanced dungeon isn't it? Don't you need to clear another dungeon to access it?

It's effectively the fourth or so dungeon unlocked, and it doesn't take long to achieve. I've spent most of my play time( 9 hours) farming lower dungeons for point rewards to unlock stuff, like races, and improve my lab parts. I doubt it would take much time to unlock the dungeon if a player pushed for it instead of taking their sweet time like I did. The reason I mentioned the Temple is to add to the discussion that there are regular monsters specifically designed to stall the fight solely so they can kill the player by exhausting all skill uses.

[Basilllisk]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Nothing about cleric has less damage output, where did you get that idea? Martial arts has a burst that scales with healing power, and there are several deadly skills with a self damage drawback you can use more effectively than classes without healing.

Please, actually read my post. I specifically used the term "less overall damage". I'll repeat and try to clarify. That is, the damage you can do in-between camps, taking your base damage skill(s) and multiplying that by their uses. I am not referring to single attack / burst damage.

When you sacrifice 1-2 out of five skill slots for healing skills that is 20-40% (40% by default since you start with two) of your slots taken up that you can't use for damage or utility. This reflects in overall damage output when you measure rough damage output by Base Damage x Use Count, which we have to do when there are limited uses. Fewer skill slots available, mean fewer skills for raw damage output.

If you play any kind of heal / utility heavy class you, by definition, will have less damage output, and this will scale poorly and restrict freedom of builds.

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von shinami:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Temple is a pretty advanced dungeon isn't it? Don't you need to clear another dungeon to access it?

It's effectively the fourth or so dungeon unlocked, and it doesn't take long to achieve. I've spent most of my play time( 9 hours) farming lower dungeons for point rewards to unlock stuff, like races, and improve my lab parts. I doubt it would take much time to unlock the dungeon if a player pushed for it instead of taking their sweet time like I did. The reason I mentioned the Temple is to add to the discussion that there are regular monsters specifically designed to stall the fight solely so they can kill the player by exhausting all skill uses.

I'll keep an eye out for it, though personally I think complaining about skills being drained in the dungeon designed to drain skills is weird, given BB1 had dungeons that would destroy your equipment or put all your skills on massive cooldowns or kill you if you tried to heal.

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Nothing about cleric has less damage output, where did you get that idea? Martial arts has a burst that scales with healing power, and there are several deadly skills with a self damage drawback you can use more effectively than classes without healing.

Please, actually read my post. I specifically used the term "less overall damage". I'll repeat and try to clarify. That is, the damage you can do in-between camps, taking your base damage skill(s) and multiplying that by their uses. I am not referring to single attack / burst damage.

When you sacrifice 1-2 out of five skill slots for healing skills that is 20-40% (40% by default since you start with two) of your slots taken up that you can't use for damage or utility. This reflects in overall damage output when you measure rough damage output by Base Damage x Use Count, which we have to do when there are limited uses. Fewer skill slots available, mean fewer skills for raw damage output.

If you play any kind of heal / utility heavy class you, by definition, will have less damage output, and this will scale poorly and restrict freedom of builds.

I'm reading, I'm just not comprehending. Damage output is usually used to refer to damage per turn, not maximum total damage per rest. What you're talking about will only matter if you somehow burn through all of your uses on your attacking stat, which is something I never came close to. Can you go to the graveyard and grab a screenshot of one of the builds you're running out of skill uses on?

[Basilllisk]

I don't know how you aren't comprehending.

Damage output per turn doesn't matter it's not at all what I'm caring about, or what this thread is about. This thread is about the limited skill use and I am trying to convey that this limited skill use inherently imparts an upper limit of how much damage you can do between rests. An upper limit of overall damage output didn't exist before. Now it does. And it has far reaching ramifications not just immediate issues.

This upper limit is directly influenced by how many damage skills you take, which disproportionately affects healing and utility based builds more than raw damage builds because those builds cannot afford the skill slots for pure damage as easily. That is a hard limit that affects certain builds more than others. This is a concern for freedom of playstyle and crafting builds as the game scales in difficulty. Having to keep in mind this upper damage output limit is incredibly unfun.

That theoretical limit is going to be a problem when it comes to scaling difficulty (enemy health especially) and build-crafting for end game.


Immediately it's already present. As you've already mentioned, gotta pick up a second damage ability. So, that basically means any build using only one main damage source is entirely not viable here. It was in the first game. I ran those builds a lot, they could be fun. Now, no builds of 2-heal 2-utility 1-damage. Or 1-heal 3-utility 1-damage. That's out the window, in the very first, easiest dungeon, it doesn't work. Need 2-3 damage sources, 40-60% of your skill slots.

Entire build ideas are scrapped because of this limit. What builds can work inherently shrink in size as end-game is approached and difficulty ramps up, this is the issue I mentioned of scaling. If what builds work is already restricted it's going to get even MORE restrictive. That's antithetical to what Buriedbornes is about. Look at the massive list of classes that are supposed to open up to different play styles. If you have an upper limit of damage you need to overcome, builds become primarily about avoiding this, not letting your damage output run to zero is as important as not letting your HP run to zero.

You might not have an issue running out with your play style or how you like to make your builds, which is fine, but don't pretend like it doesn't effect the level of freedom in build-crafting we had in the first game.

[shinami]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

I'll keep an eye out for it, though personally I think complaining about skills being drained in the dungeon designed to drain skills is weird, given BB1 had dungeons that would destroy your equipment or put all your skills on massive cooldowns or kill you if you tried to heal.

What I'm saying is the entire mechanic is an arbitrary limitation that just feels terrible to interact with. It's not something I want to mess with because of how unfun the skill usage mechanic makes the game.

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

I don't know how you aren't comprehending.

Damage output per turn doesn't matter it's not at all what I'm caring about, or what this thread is about. This thread is about the limited skill use and I am trying to convey that this limited skill use inherently imparts an upper limit of how much damage you can do between rests. An upper limit of overall damage output didn't exist before. Now it does. And it has far reaching ramifications not just immediate issues.

This upper limit is directly influenced by how many damage skills you take, which disproportionately affects healing and utility based builds more than raw damage builds because those builds cannot afford the skill slots for pure damage as easily. That is a hard limit that affects certain builds more than others. This is a concern for freedom of playstyle and crafting builds as the game scales in difficulty. Having to keep in mind this upper damage output limit is incredibly unfun.

That theoretical limit is going to be a problem when it comes to scaling difficulty (enemy health especially) and build-crafting for end game.


Immediately it's already present. As you've already mentioned, gotta pick up a second damage ability. So, that basically means any build using only one main damage source is entirely not viable here. It was in the first game. I ran those builds a lot, they could be fun. Now, no builds of 2-heal 2-utility 1-damage. Or 1-heal 3-utility 1-damage. That's out the window, in the very first, easiest dungeon, it doesn't work. Need 2-3 damage sources, 40-60% of your skill slots.

Entire build ideas are scrapped because of this limit. What builds can work inherently shrink in size as end-game is approached and difficulty ramps up, this is the issue I mentioned of scaling. If what builds work is already restricted it's going to get even MORE restrictive. That's antithetical to what Buriedbornes is about. Look at the massive list of classes that are supposed to open up to different play styles. If you have an upper limit of damage you need to overcome, builds become primarily about avoiding this, not letting your damage output run to zero is as important as not letting your HP run to zero.

You might not have an issue running out with your play style or how you like to make your builds, which is fine, but don't pretend like it doesn't effect the level of freedom in build-crafting we had in the first game.

Oh you're complaining about an endgame you haven't reached yet. You know there are species and gear that leat you deal damage by healing right?

Did you actually play bb1 at all? Tank builds were ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ once you got past the basic labyrinth because giving enemies turns meant you needed to spec your build to deal with all the random ways they could kill you or stop you from fighting back. The health pips preventing oneshoting bosses immediately makes healing and utility builds more viable than they were in bb1 because the enemy WILL get a chance to hit you.

You can absolutely still run only 1 attack on a build if you really want to, you just need to make sure it's an actually good attack and build enough damage for it to work just like in bb1.

Personally I feel you're underestimating how high the theoretical limit is provided you're not intentionally kneecapping yourself or playing in the dungeon designed to make you hit that limit. Unless the build you want to run is "build no damage and run no skills that scale on HP or healing" (which has never been viable) your build probably won't hit that limit. If you disagree send me a screenshot of the build you wish was viable.

[CotePathos_EpochToaster]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von shinami:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

I'll keep an eye out for it, though personally I think complaining about skills being drained in the dungeon designed to drain skills is weird, given BB1 had dungeons that would destroy your equipment or put all your skills on massive cooldowns or kill you if you tried to heal.

What I'm saying is the entire mechanic is an arbitrary limitation that just feels terrible to interact with. It's not something I want to mess with because of how unfun the skill usage mechanic makes the game.

Feels bad and unfun are subjective. I personally enjoy the new mechanic, it's an entire new dimension skills can be balanced around and builds can exploit. This means more skill variety and build variety.

[Basilllisk]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Cote Pathos:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Basilllisk:

I don't know how you aren't comprehending.

Damage output per turn doesn't matter it's not at all what I'm caring about, or what this thread is about. This thread is about the limited skill use and I am trying to convey that this limited skill use inherently imparts an upper limit of how much damage you can do between rests. An upper limit of overall damage output didn't exist before. Now it does. And it has far reaching ramifications not just immediate issues.

This upper limit is directly influenced by how many damage skills you take, which disproportionately affects healing and utility based builds more than raw damage builds because those builds cannot afford the skill slots for pure damage as easily. That is a hard limit that affects certain builds more than others. This is a concern for freedom of playstyle and crafting builds as the game scales in difficulty. Having to keep in mind this upper damage output limit is incredibly unfun.

That theoretical limit is going to be a problem when it comes to scaling difficulty (enemy health especially) and build-crafting for end game.


Immediately it's already present. As you've already mentioned, gotta pick up a second damage ability. So, that basically means any build using only one main damage source is entirely not viable here. It was in the first game. I ran those builds a lot, they could be fun. Now, no builds of 2-heal 2-utility 1-damage. Or 1-heal 3-utility 1-damage. That's out the window, in the very first, easiest dungeon, it doesn't work. Need 2-3 damage sources, 40-60% of your skill slots.

Entire build ideas are scrapped because of this limit. What builds can work inherently shrink in size as end-game is approached and difficulty ramps up, this is the issue I mentioned of scaling. If what builds work is already restricted it's going to get even MORE restrictive. That's antithetical to what Buriedbornes is about. Look at the massive list of classes that are supposed to open up to different play styles. If you have an upper limit of damage you need to overcome, builds become primarily about avoiding this, not letting your damage output run to zero is as important as not letting your HP run to zero.

You might not have an issue running out with your play style or how you like to make your builds, which is fine, but don't pretend like it doesn't effect the level of freedom in build-crafting we had in the first game.

Oh you're complaining about an endgame you haven't reached yet. You know there are species and gear that leat you deal damage by healing right?

Did you actually play bb1 at all? Tank builds were ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ once you got past the basic labyrinth because giving enemies turns meant you needed to spec your build to deal with all the random ways they could kill you or stop you from fighting back. The health pips preventing oneshoting bosses immediately makes healing and utility builds more viable than they were in bb1 because the enemy WILL get a chance to hit you.

You can absolutely still run only 1 attack on a build if you really want to, you just need to make sure it's an actually good attack and build enough damage for it to work just like in bb1.

Personally I feel you're underestimating how high the theoretical limit is provided you're not intentionally kneecapping yourself or playing in the dungeon designed to make you hit that limit. Unless the build you want to run is "build no damage and run no skills that scale on HP or healing" (which has never been viable) your build probably won't hit that limit. If you disagree send me a screenshot of the build you wish was viable.

I have a couple hundred hours in the first game. Played and beat some of the end game dungeons, regular and seasonal. Don't attack my argument by implying I never played the first game.

I'm not arguing about how high or not high the upper damage limit is, I'm arguing that introducing it in any capacity is awful and immediately constricts what is possible (note, not viable, just possible). If you want to pretend that introducing an upper damage limit when there wasn't one before is totally fine then I think we're not going to see eye to eye on this.