Why is Alchemy a class?

[Zaxori]

Since the beginning of this game being released, I found myself never being drawn to the Alchemy class. Years later and after 3 DLC releases I finally played it and it was hands down the most boring class to play. What's supposed to be exciting about playing Alchemy?! You can only use the potion once so you find yourself constantly in need of material's but most the time, I don't even remember to use potions. It's just this extra layer to the game that's more annoying to deal with than it is fun to incorporate into my playstyle. Most of the potions are mediocre buffs anyways so you're not getting diversity in the play like you do with all the other classes that have faction specific units. Why isn't there a single faction specific unit for Alchemy?! (I don't count the minion summon you get because all classes have their own version of that). This class adds nothing at all to the game, so why even have it? I think the Alchemy class and Dreamweaver idea should be combined into a whole new class idea. Take two unfinished classes and make it whole.

[State Line Crosser]

I don't really like alchemy myself either but it was plenty powerful on release, just in a gimmicky kind of way. Summoned units used to have actions on the same turn so alchemy fights were essentially a question of how many resources you had stockpiled. Alchemy has the easiest path to creating higher tier ingredients as well as access to special artifacts.

Alchemy is essentially a use item class compared to the others being unit based. From what I saw of old users games, this ability let them steamroll the game most of the time.

[Kaysoky]

Question: Are you playing on a difficulty that warrants the use of all the tools available to you? I used to gravitate towards Alchemist for Impossible runs (although not recently, since you can choose a random mage now), because of all the options it provides.

The Artificer and Demonologist actually fall into the same category, of not having their own units. (Units you'd associate with each are actually tied to their spellbooks.) You can get demons and glyphs from shops after all.

[gintsr]

For casual gamer alchemist is overpowered class - even with nerf from DLC for two strongest spammable receipts (sealed fire element cost was made bigger by 3 arcane points, summoning units when dying doesn't leave remains so can not use create undead chain spam) it gives so many options and some innocent resource gathering worker stack suddenly can kill much, much stronger opponents stacks.

[Zaxori]

Originally posted by Kaysoky:

Question: Are you playing on a difficulty that warrants the use of all the tools available to you? I used to gravitate towards Alchemist for Impossible runs (although not recently, since you can choose a random mage now), because of all the options it provides.

The Artificer and Demonologist actually fall into the same category, of not having their own units. (Units you'd associate with each are actually tied to their spellbooks.) You can get demons and glyphs from shops after all.

I count anything that is pretty much baked into the class as their units. Technically now every class can summon whatever units they want with the new update on picking a second craft, but it's not the same to me. Basically when I pick this class, I'm going to focus all of my energy into building that mechanic and nothing else. Otherwise, what's the point of having factions? The point is "This faction has things that it can do and you as a non-faction cannot." That is my mentality about it. I know this game is very liberal with allowing total unit freedom to an extent, but to me it's such a pain in the ass to use units from other classes because, as you said, you have to either stumble upon the spellbook or travel halfway across the map to buy the unit that may or may not be on sale.

[Zaxori]

Originally posted by gintsr:

For casual gamer alchemist is overpowered class - even with nerf from DLC for two strongest spammable receipts (sealed fire element cost was made bigger by 3 arcane points, summoning units when dying doesn't leave remains so can not use create undead chain spam) it gives so many options and some innocent resource gathering worker stack suddenly can kill much, much stronger opponents stacks.

I don't see it. Way too much micro in my opinion to be appealing. Hence why I think it should just be a craft that all classes can do because it's not really specific to itself. What they also could do... make the alchemist class elves. That would make a lot of sense in my book because elves are usually a nature based class. Have a bunch of elven units that you can hire from the alchemist building, make a druid class that has a bunch of summons, make fae summons and a nature spellbook. Like this is all just basic fantasy, it really isn't hard to come up with. And please don't counter that statement with "Oh well they're trying to do their own lore" All of the classes follow a very basic fantasy class that is used in numerous fantasy games. It's not that original.

[Zaxori]

There's just nothing about alchemist that screams "I want to play this faction so I have access to this idea that it excels in more than any other class"

[Zaxori]

Oh I also want to state that, while I come across as aggressive, I still appreciate you all giving your feedback. I love hearing about ideas or uses of something that I don't fully understand. I 100% agree that my argument is a subjective one.

[Kaysoky]

Originally posted by Zaxori:

I count anything that is pretty much baked into the class as their units.

Other than the necromancer, no class has units exclusive to them (outside of the minion/cultist unit). The Alchemist/Artificer/Demonologist merely have their default spellbooks assigned to them logically, but nothing prevents you from starting with different spellbooks.

Try playing a Random Mage, and you might end up with some wonky combinations that might not seem to work (at first).

Originally posted by Zaxori:

Originally posted by gintsr:

For casual gamer alchemist is overpowered class ...

I don't see it. Way too much micro in my opinion to be appealing.

Properly using all the classes takes quite a bit of micromanagement, albeit in a different way for each.

• The Alchemist is about prior preparation, so you'll have a stock of consumables available for any situation. But that's just for battling. The Alchemist can also build their room extensions quicker than other classes by using Potent Water/Distilled Aria to upgrade/duplicate their essences. Again, this means lots of crafting every turn, probably more so than other classes. (But crafting properly gives them the steepest power curve.)
  
• The Artificer is pretty similar to the Alchemist, but I usually need to play with a recipe guide open (110+ recipes). Since the Artificer's recipes all require metals, this means you'll need to micromanage worker groups to mine out the world, all while choosing what glyphs to craft each turn. The Artificer can also upgrade their essences, but not duplicate them like the Alchemist can do, so their power curve is more gradual, with a higher peak.
  
• The Demonologist's micromanagement comes from their multi-level crafting system. Not only do you need to gather materials, you also need to produce fodder stacks to level up demons (Pawns, Rooks, Paradox, etc). And after leveling up demons, you can combine them or merge them into items. (Unlike Alchemist and Artificer, Demonlogist can't upgrade essences, so their room extensions are loot-dependent).
  
• The Necromancer is in contrast to the other classes. For the most part, you can get away with not hiring, not gathering, and only crafting occasionally. You basically just fight to get souls and materials to produce fodder stacks to fight more. I can see why a lot of players like this class for this reason. Although the lack of natural healing does throw a wrench in things, since you'll be more heavily punished for auto-resolving combats. (And like the Demonologist, no upgrading essences for the Necromancer.)

All of this micromanagement is agnostic of the spellbooks chosen. Some spellbooks may make things easier or add more things you should do each turn.

[Zaxori]

Originally posted by Kaysoky:

Originally posted by Zaxori:

I count anything that is pretty much baked into the class as their units.

Other than the necromancer, no class has units exclusive to them (outside of the minion/cultist unit). The Alchemist/Artificer/Demonologist merely have their default spellbooks assigned to them logically, but nothing prevents you from starting with different spellbooks.

Try playing a Random Mage, and you might end up with some wonky combinations that might not seem to work (at first).

Originally posted by Zaxori:

I don't see it. Way too much micro in my opinion to be appealing.

Properly using all the classes takes quite a bit of micromanagement, albeit in a different way for each.

• The Alchemist is about prior preparation, so you'll have a stock of consumables available for any situation. But that's just for battling. The Alchemist can also build their room extensions quicker than other classes by using Potent Water/Distilled Aria to upgrade/duplicate their essences. Again, this means lots of crafting every turn, probably more so than other classes. (But crafting properly gives them the steepest power curve.)
  
• The Artificer is pretty similar to the Alchemist, but I usually need to play with a recipe guide open (110+ recipes). Since the Artificer's recipes all require metals, this means you'll need to micromanage worker groups to mine out the world, all while choosing what glyphs to craft each turn. The Artificer can also upgrade their essences, but not duplicate them like the Alchemist can do, so their power curve is more gradual, with a higher peak.
  
• The Demonologist's micromanagement comes from their multi-level crafting system. Not only do you need to gather materials, you also need to produce fodder stacks to level up demons (Pawns, Rooks, Paradox, etc). And after leveling up demons, you can combine them or merge them into items. (Unlike Alchemist and Artificer, Demonlogist can't upgrade essences, so their room extensions are loot-dependent).
  
• The Necromancer is in contrast to the other classes. For the most part, you can get away with not hiring, not gathering, and only crafting occasionally. You basically just fight to get souls and materials to produce fodder stacks to fight more. I can see why a lot of players like this class for this reason. Although the lack of natural healing does throw a wrench in things, since you'll be more heavily punished for auto-resolving combats. (And like the Demonologist, no upgrading essences for the Necromancer.)

All of this micromanagement is agnostic of the spellbooks chosen. Some spellbooks may make things easier or add more things you should do each turn.

You didn't read what I said. I literally said the same thing that technically the devs have made it to where there isn't exclusivity in some form or manner, it's about ease of access. I also addressed that point too.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Zaxori:

I count anything that is pretty much baked into the class as their units.

But you can make a alchemist with the occultist spellbooks if you want (summon demon units). Spellbooks and crafting skill are separate. So Artificer and Demonologist does not have any units either. You do not need to choose being able to select a extra crafting skill because its not related.

Heck even if you don't make a custom mage you can easily find those same spellpages that summon units in the game regardless of crafting skill.

[Kaysoky]

Originally posted by Zaxori:

You didn't read what I said. I literally said the same thing that technically the devs have made it to where there isn't exclusivity in some form or manner, it's about ease of access. I also addressed that point too.

Not sure what you're referring to, when you quote a huge block of text...

Perhaps this?

Originally posted by Zaxori:

I know this game is very liberal with allowing total unit freedom to an extent, but to me it's such a pain in the ass to use units from other classes because, as you said, you have to either stumble upon the spellbook or travel halfway across the map to buy the unit that may or may not be on sale.

This only applies in some circumstances, like playing on the large map (rather than the scenarios) and going into the game with a rigid plan in mind. And of course, if you are buying a unit, it has nothing to do with the class.

[Zaxori]

Originally posted by Kaysoky:

Originally posted by Zaxori:

You didn't read what I said. I literally said the same thing that technically the devs have made it to where there isn't exclusivity in some form or manner, it's about ease of access. I also addressed that point too.

Not sure what you're referring to, when you quote a huge block of text...

Perhaps this?

Originally posted by Zaxori:

I know this game is very liberal with allowing total unit freedom to an extent, but to me it's such a pain in the ass to use units from other classes because, as you said, you have to either stumble upon the spellbook or travel halfway across the map to buy the unit that may or may not be on sale.

This only applies in some circumstances, like playing on the large map (rather than the scenarios) and going into the game with a rigid plan in mind. And of course, if you are buying a unit, it has nothing to do with the class.

I don't think you're understanding what I mean. Yes NOW there are smaller maps. If you're playing a shorter game, it's not as big of a deal. However, that's not what I'm playing this game for. This is a gripe that I have with a lot of 4x games now a days, they really despise making properly tiered units in my opinion. To me, and evolution system is a much more comprehensive way to entice leveling up your units, making all units useful and not boring/utilized in one specific scenario, and making really fun late game matches. This is what appeals to me with necromancer/demonology, they have super bad ass final tier units that always make my grind up to them worthwhile. I love working my way up to having a full team of badass OP demons that I can just wreck house with. Watching them grind the map to an empty field is just endless entertainment for me.

I dunno if that helps give perspective on why I have the criticisms that I have and why I favor trying to keep each faction specific to their own specialties. Does that make them a bit one dimensional? Sure. But it's a dimension that I want to focus on when I pick said faction. When I pick artificer, I want to specialize in having super beefy units mixed with a construct that rounds off the damage/tank that the team might be missing. When I play necro, I want to overwhelm the opponent with hordes of undead units that make the field their own by turning even the enemies own dead against them. Demonologist, I want to morph these weak puny beginner units I'm using to gather resources into the OP field decimating demon's that each can overpower anything because they're all around beefy and strong damage wise.

[Zaxori]

For me, it's about the late game, not seeing how fast I can rush the opponent before they build up an army. I hate that type of playstyle. It defeats the purpose of late game units.

[Kaysoky]

I guess we're just wondering why you are singling out Alchemy when three classes act the same way.

[Zazaiel]

Always hated consumables in all the games, so this calls is not exception. Micromanaging all the fights and preparations are rather tedious compared to other classes.
However I found that there are some artefacts that can be crafted and thats a great Idea - add a "alchemy kits" providing new skills. Maybe even new weapons? Flamethrowers? Grenade packs?
Would be also worthwhile to have potions permanently rise unit stats up to certain level obviously.
There can be much more fun with alchemy then using consumables all the time =/
Just take some examples from Pathfinder idk.
Also wanted to mention Fell Seal approach to potions, one of great examples how to make pots not boring and overhoarding.
Right now I just never pick that class as its less engaging and more tedious compared to others.