Feedback: "Eternal Slumber" needs to be nerfed/changed/removed

[Cbbl]

I just finished a new impossible artificier + dreamweaver run and dreamweaving has some pretty cool ideas and is generally fun to play but is has one major issue:

After casting "Eternal Slumber" you basicly win the game as it removes every time pressure on the player as oppenents neither move nor upgrade their power.
You enter a form of "creativity mode" where you can out farm/gear/overlevel (especialy in combination with the xp-reset-spell) everything.
Time is a very important factor in round based strategy games and eternal slumber removes every challenge (and fun) of the game.

I would recommend nerfing or changing it heavily. An increase to the mana cost would change nothing because as i said after casting it you won.

[Kaysoky]

By the time you have the mana to sustain the upkeep (100 per turn?), you've basically won anyway. So there shouldn't be much need of a change.

[Wuorg]

I've been playing with it in my current run, and you're "creative mode" comment is spot on. Like you said, it doesn't matter how expensive it is, as the moment you can afford to keep it on, you've essentially won. It is basically a secondary win condition at this point. Edit: If that's the intended use...then I guess that's fine? Still, in that case, it should have an entirely obscene cost and upkeep.

There's been a lot of discussion lately in these forums about what nerfs mean in a single player game. Historically, I have been on the side against needless nerfs. Even with that in mind...this spell kills the challenge and fun of a match, and I don't consider "just don't use it" a valid counter argument for reasons I don't need to get into here.

All that said, the premise of the spell is still very cool and I think it would be nice if the community (and future commenters of this thread) focused their energy on brainstorming ways to make it fun and engaging, rather than arguing about the validity of nerfing it from a philosophical standpoint.

Edit: For my part, if we were to go the path of least resistance, I was thinking something similar to what they did with Flight. Have it last a handful of turns (or even only one), but have a large up front cost to tax the player's Mastery points if they wanted to keep it up. Edit on the edit: Then again, it seems like you'd run into the same problem described above about it being a win condition by another name, hm...

[Cbbl]

@Kaysoky: 100 per turn is nothing because you can put all your allfire into mana. it's more like midgame but nowhere near winning the game. At least on impossible.

@Wuorg: I agree 100% with you.
For Ideas: Maybe it needs to get a cooldown so work for a week then one week cooldown or only affects 1 region at a time.

[Wuorg]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Cbbl:

@Kaysoky: 100 per turn is nothing because you can put all your allfire into mana. it's more like midgame but nowhere near winning the game. At least on impossible.

@Wuorg: I agree 100% with you.
For Ideas: Maybe it needs to get a cooldown so work for a week then one week cooldown or only affects 1 region at a time.

One region at a time is interesting. Or perhaps, one faction at a time?

What if it turned off *all* stacks, including your own, and didn't disable new ones from spawning. This way, it could be a way to get some breathing room and time to think--perhaps getting some more troops started building or crucial research done--but with the risk that things become overwhelming if you leave it on for too long.

[Cbbl]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wuorg:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Cbbl:

@Kaysoky: 100 per turn is nothing because you can put all your allfire into mana. it's more like midgame but nowhere near winning the game. At least on impossible.

@Wuorg: I agree 100% with you.
For Ideas: Maybe it needs to get a cooldown so work for a week then one week cooldown or only affects 1 region at a time.

One region at a time is interesting. Or perhaps, one faction at a time?

What if it turned off *all* stacks, including your own, and didn't disable new ones from spawning. This way, it could be a way to get some breathing room and time to think--perhaps getting some more troops started building or crucial research done--but with the risk that things become overwhelming if you leave it on for too long.

Thats also interesting. I just hope the devs read this and change it somehow because OP is not (always) a problem in SinglePlayer but removing important game elements and fun is.

[Wuorg]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Cbbl:

...removing important game elements and fun is (a problem).

This is really what it boils down to for me, not really how overpowered it may or may not be. The spell just turns off a major portion of the game, instead of interacting with it in some interesting way.

Whatever shape a hypothetical reworked form of the spell takes, it needs to increase engagement with pre-existing mechanics, ideally opening up new possibilities through combination with other mechanics. This is basically how every spell (and indeed, every game mechanic) should work. Eternal Slumber is exciting at first when it becomes apparent how powerful it is, but that immediately wears off the moment you realize the game is over...

[easytarget]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kaysoky:

By the time you have the mana to sustain the upkeep (100 per turn?), you've basically won anyway. So there shouldn't be much need of a change.

This.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Cbbl:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Wuorg:

One region at a time is interesting. Or perhaps, one faction at a time?

What if it turned off *all* stacks, including your own, and didn't disable new ones from spawning. This way, it could be a way to get some breathing room and time to think--perhaps getting some more troops started building or crucial research done--but with the risk that things become overwhelming if you leave it on for too long.

but removing important game elements and fun is.

Balancing fun out of games is a thing.

Heaven forbid in a single player game anyone is rewarded for uncovering and utilizing effective strategies or tactics.

[sandman25dcsss]

I've just played my first game with the school and I agree with TS.
15 weeks and I've basically won the game on the hardest settings as Dreams/Dreams mage because first extra spell page is guaranteed to be Dreams 4. The combo is ridiculous with Dream Council spell which makes all mages friendly before you even meet them and you start with its page. I wasn't attacked at all.

[gintsr]

I liked my Dream/Dream Dream Council to Eternal Slumber game on impossible. Agree, that it's more or less another win condition but where is problem if some players like it?!

[sandman25dcsss]

Początkowo opublikowane przez gintsr:

I liked my Dream/Dream Dream Council to Eternal Slumber game on impossible. Agree, that it's more or less another win condition but where is problem if some players like it?!

Well, it is single player game indeed, but probably the spell should be on page 4 instead of 3.