Demonology progression feels off

[Supply Side Jesus]

I am to the point where I moved my tower to the first all-node. I am still on goblins and cultists. This feels off, I expected to already have access to demons or some higher level summoned troops.

[Kaysoky]

Progression as a demonologist is defined in Lesser Demons, rather than in summoned demons. The latter mainly depends on your research and spell pages, so cannot be guaranteed or even unlocked in the early game.

It sorta seems like pure demons aren't as good as mortals + lesser demons.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

I am to the point where I moved my tower to the first all-node. I am still on goblins and cultists. This feels off, I expected to already have access to demons or some higher level summoned troops.

You don't get demon-units from demonology (the crafting skill). The crafting skill is all about demonic possession (creating demons that is used to posses the mind of mortals).

You can get demon-units from occultism (spell grimoire) and like all such spells books its a bit random what you unlock when.

That said demon-units don't have a mind slot (you can't possess a demon with a demon, the exceptions being the demon lord that has 3 slots) so you likely won't use them that much regardless.

Originally posted by Kaysoky:

Progression as a demonologist is defined in Lesser Demons, rather than in summoned demons. The latter mainly depends on your research and spell pages, so cannot be guaranteed or even unlocked in the early game.

It sorta seems like pure demons aren't as good as mortals + lesser demons.

You can create both lesser and greater demons in demonology, but they are (both lesser and greater) used to posses mortals, rather then being units.

[Luckylancer]

I agree with you but there are a few synergies you can use.

Max level those goblins, then sacrifice (9 mana) or demonise (75mana) them. First will give you a strong item, second will give you a level 15 tier 2 fire spitting demon. You can use blue (tourist) soul to level them faster or orange (vulture) to gain more money.

Put blue soul on a unit and let it explore the map. Tha unit will gather a lot of intel and resources.

Spam cultists, put blue demon on them, send them to cities. They will go there faster, found a cult, scout and level the demon all at once.

Those are all I did. I think green (rook) demon is terrible due to decreased speed. Smoker is terrible as you wont have undead early on.

Other lesser demons were mostly underwhelming imo.

[Kaysoky]

I also found a ton of utility in the most basic demons. Pawns of Urdash were my disposable units and Rooks were my initial frontline (especially cavalry). I also like to keep one Tourist per stack since having vision is quite important for planning where to go.

I generally put Vultures on my backline troops for the extra loot.

Over time, I would level up a Paradox (via https://steamcommunity.com/app/1581770/discussions/0/7434949789840447799/ ) and a couple of Gourmets (limited by the number of cheap consumables picked up in battle and in shops).

And normally, by the time I unlocked Greater Demons, I'd also have unlocked Eager Vessels, letting me combine max leveled lesser demons into experienced troops.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by Luckylancer:

I agree with you but there are a few synergies you can use.

Max level those goblins, then sacrifice (9 mana) or demonise (75mana) them. First will give you a strong item, second will give you a level 15 tier 2 fire spitting demon. You can use blue (tourist) soul to level them faster or orange (vulture) to gain more money.

Put blue soul on a unit and let it explore the map. Tha unit will gather a lot of intel and resources.

Spam cultists, put blue demon on them, send them to cities. They will go there faster, found a cult, scout and level the demon all at once.

Those are all I did. I think green (rook) demon is terrible due to decreased speed. Smoker is terrible as you wont have undead early on.

Other lesser demons were mostly underwhelming imo.

Thanks, lots of good advices here.
I really like Smoker, it is easy to get Cleanse ability on starting apprentice or artifact you gain for sacrificing new unit.

[Supply Side Jesus]

I am really not liking early demonologist play. Slotting demons doesn't do enough, not when compared to crafting runes. Unlike runes and potions, you also can't do that to hero units. So it is the same goblins into orcs/humans/dwarfs progression you would normally have. Only as a demonologist you don't get to do much of anything... magical. For all the quest text, you are not making deal with the underworld, you are not really using population around you to collect souls, you not building infernal machines...

This is kind of EMO version of the occult, it might look dark and spooky but nothing really happens.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Unlike runes and potions, you also can't do that to hero units

While it might be mid game rather then early game, you can put your lesser demons into equipment for heroes (Worth noting that it can't be removed again, its basically bound to the item forever). Later still you can even add a cult affinity to the equipment on top of that.

[sandman25dcsss]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

Unlike runes and potions, you also can't do that to hero units

While it might be mid game rather then early game, you can put your lesser demons into equipment for heroes (Worth noting that it can't be removed again, its basically bound to the item forever). Later still you can even add a cult affinity to the equipment on top of that.

You can replace demon on item.

[Garatgh Deloi]

Originally posted by sandman25dcsss:

You can replace demon on item.

I was more driving towards the point of you not being able to get the demon back, but i should have phrased it differently, thank you for clarifying for others :P

[Snickers]

Originally posted by Garatgh Deloi:

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

I am to the point where I moved my tower to the first all-node. I am still on goblins and cultists. This feels off, I expected to already have access to demons or some higher level summoned troops.

You don't get demon-units from demonology (the crafting skill). The crafting skill is all about demonic possession (creating demons that is used to posses the mind of mortals).

You can get demon-units from occultism (spell grimoire) and like all such spells books its a bit random what you unlock when.

That said demon-units don't have a mind slot (you can't possess a demon with a demon, the exceptions being the demon lord that has 3 slots) so you likely won't use them that much regardless.

Originally posted by Kaysoky:

Progression as a demonologist is defined in Lesser Demons, rather than in summoned demons. The latter mainly depends on your research and spell pages, so cannot be guaranteed or even unlocked in the early game.

It sorta seems like pure demons aren't as good as mortals + lesser demons.

You can create both lesser and greater demons in demonology, but they are (both lesser and greater) used to posses mortals, rather then being units.

If you cast the demon mind slot on a mortal before turning them into a demon, they will retain the ability to be posessed.

So you can have a demon prosess a coredweller for example.

[menkede]

"If you cast the demon mind slot on a mortal before turning them into a demon, they will retain the ability to be posessed.

So you can have a demon prosess a coredweller for example."

i'd love to hear from the devs if this is intentional. i think lesser/greater demons should have interaction with demon units, but this method sounds like a glitch that could be patched out. if it is intentional it should be mentioned in the spell description.

[Kaysoky]

When transforming into a demon via a sacrificial spell, the unit retains all non-default abilities from the base unit. These extra traits (like the Eager Vessel) fall under that bucket.

It seems like a neat way to use the spells. There's another one in the Occultism school, Mutation, which you can only put on a non-possessed non-demon unit. So if you've already slotted a unit with a demon, you'd have to give them Eager Vessel, remove the demon, cast Mutation, then re-slot the demon.

[Garatgh Deloi]

That means you can have a demon unit that is high level (either by leveling the unit that is sacrificed or giving the demon the ability to level) with a demon slot (eager vessel) and a arm slot (Mutation: extra arm) and give them a demon possessed weapon as well as a special greater demon in their slot...

*Starts crafting super demons*

MUHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

[sanahtlig]

A max-level Paradox demon bound to a general-use piece of equipment is a portable 'I Win' button. Since Apprentices and Heroes are Tier 5 they'll be able to one-shot most units with any AoE ability. And since it's equipment you can swap it around and use it with every main army every turn. You can mitigate the XP penalty by binding a Tourist to a second piece of equipment. In my run, I got a tome drop from the Mentalist demon lord that made all Focus costs 0 and gave access to a free AoE--the perfect complement.

[ChaosKhan]

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

I am to the point where I moved my tower to the first all-node. I am still on goblins and cultists. This feels off, I expected to already have access to demons or some higher level summoned troops.

Originally posted by Supply Side Jesus:

I am really not liking early demonologist play. Slotting demons doesn't do enough, not when compared to crafting runes. Unlike runes and potions, you also can't do that to hero units. So it is the same goblins into orcs/humans/dwarfs progression you would normally have. Only as a demonologist you don't get to do much of anything... magical. For all the quest text, you are not making deal with the underworld, you are not really using population around you to collect souls, you not building infernal machines...

This is kind of EMO version of the occult, it might look dark and spooky but nothing really happens.

I agree on those statements. He is extremely weak in the early game, unless you clap down the difficutly, but then you snowball too hard once your possessing demons get some levels in. If you rake up the difficulty though, you are literally unbable to finish the basic quests because your weak Goblins are utterly unable to defeat marauders and guarding stacks, so it becomes an "end turn simulator" where you churn out dozens of Goblins and throw them at the quests, wearing down the guardians so you can finally get your tower flying...

The class clearly needs tweaking in terms of scaling. I get it, that there are synergies, but the way the Demonologist works now, you either have a horrible early game, or a boring mid/late game. Nothing in between.