[Spell Feedback] Occultism's Summoning Circle is too good

[LeFlesh]

I posted this in the discord but sharing it here too for visibility:

Enchanting and Guardian are the only schools incapable of spawning units outside of the player's Domain. Every other school can replace their stacks' numbers away from the safety of one's lodges/tower.

To compensate for this deficiency, Enchanting was gifted tools to enhance its mobility: early access to premium Flying/Ethereal summons, bridge generation via Freeze Water, and the late-game utility powerhouses Wind-Walking & True Teleport.

Guardian, as the name implies, was instead supplimented with the sustainability to keep its armies healthy: exclusive access to Guardian Spirits (the game's only summonable healer with a highly-coveted Greater Meld ability), Mass Healing, global boosts to daily regeneration from an In-Domain Well of Life (or, alternatively, quadruples a stack's regen if conjured on-the-spot away from the player's domain), and potent buffs that often turn the tide of battle in its favor. For completion's sake, Guardian also gains Water-Walking from their third page, yet this is likely its most underwhelming spell due to its later-game access compounded by its redundancy with the Stormwatch Faste Landmark (and now, even more egregious, the Cult of the Tides).

The third-most restricted school is Earth. The only means for Earth to generate units outside of its Domain is by consuming an ore hex. With no mobility enhancements of its own, Earth instead supports its troops with an efficient single-target Heal and the unique ability (prior to Demon Scourge) to generate pockets of the player's Domain with Instant Castle. The devs foresaw Instant Castle's potential and knowingly gated it behind the school's first page with a steep Mana & Research investment.

This mana-hungry, t2 spell --- which is only guaranteed to those who choose Earth as their primary and is a school that both lacks mobility and has extremely limited unit generation outside of its Domain --- enables remote capture of nodes and, more importantly, combos with a guaranteed spell from the second Apprentice page to provide the utility of True Teleport. Players that choose Enchantment (THE school for mobility) as both their primary and secondary are not even guarenteed to unlock True Teleport, but Earth primaries are allowed to do so after sufficient investment.

Enter Summoning Circle: a first-page spell with half the mana cost and less than one fourth of the research investment of Instant Castle. This inexpensive starter spell affords its user the same guaranteed utility of True Teleport to any who choose Occultism as either of their initial schools. Further, it can be comboed with Bastion's Might Amplifier to fully emmulate Instant Castle (a spell that's only guaranteed to Earth primaries which, again, lack mobility and has limited unit spawning) for half the mana cost. It also doesn't help that Occultism provides its own enhanced wisp, has no problem replacing the wounded in its ranks with Core Dwellers, and can summon what is undoubtedly the most powerful Titan. Summoning Circle simply guarantees too much to the school for far too little. Either make the the spell cost more, lock it behind later spell pages, carry tighter casting restrictions, fix its Domain to only the single hex, and/or prevent teleportation within any Summoning Circle hex.



Its purpose is to allow the summoning of Fantastics to anywhere on Eo, not rob the best bits of design space from the other schools.

/rant

[sandman25dcsss]

I barely use Summoning Circle. Summoned units are weak and it is better to have fast normal units instead. Like +4 speed from Enchantment or spammable Death March.

[Aster]

I admire the effort and care you put into a well informed argument. That said, I am wondering why you as the player need the spell schools balanced properly to the point of asking for a spell to be nerfed. Does the AI player really use them effectively? Do the AI mages really teleport their armies around? I honestly don't know.
If so I might have to agree, despite generally being against nerfs as a rule. Magic is supposed to be big, banging and breaking...

[LeFlesh]

Titans are summoned units. Regardless, the perceived strength of summoned units isn't really what this thread is about. I point out that the true strength of Summoning Circle is its guarenteed access to True Teleport from campaign creation. Occultism is sticking its fingers into the design space of other schools, at a cheaper rate, with less drawbacks.

[LeFlesh]

I don't need the school to be balanced, but I think it is better for the overall survival of the game that for each time a DLC comes out, the shiny new stuff doesn't cannibalize the old.

[LeFlesh]

Hell, let's lean harder into the summoning theme and have the Circle be consumed once a creature is summoned (not teleported) through it and in exchange that unit receives a permanent boon (stats/Essence Leech/random ability/etc).

[Aster]

I wouldn't mind getting access to more demon units, there are many that I haven't been able to recruit somehow. Perhaps the summoning circle really could be improved by providing actual summons...!

[LeFlesh]

Units that are rare and/or exclusive to the Summoning Circle are another possibility. Maybe have the Circle tick down each day like a node would when its inside the player's domain. You can cancel the spell to instantly generate some mid-tier soldiers or get rewarded with something powerful if the Circle's timer is permitted to expire naturally.

[LeFlesh]

The spell's focus should be set on summoning something. Not domain expansion or cross-continental travel.

[Yoinkyz]

ye those demons are the strongest tier 2 in the game. 100 hp. honestly they should just nerf em and allow em to level up. fantastical creatures can be kinda boring.

[zemuron]

You are completly right, that spell breaks the game.

As soon as you get the Might Amplifier you win the Game per Eco.

Fortunatly it's a singelplayer in that regard, otherwise it would be far worse.
If they nerf it so it dosen't profit from + Domain I think were golden.

[easytarget]

Perfect balance in an SP game equals perfect boredom.

[LeFlesh]

Sure, but invalidating the schools' previously established niches (while granting them nothing in return) is equally tiresome.

The school of Occultism is already incredibly powerful on its own even if this spell were to be deleted from the game. I'm not advocating for Summoning Circle to be removed, but for it to be repurposed.


Another thought on SC being a maintained node that ticks down while inside the player's domain: this process could spawn/attract unwanted attention from the surrounding AI stacks, forcing the player to defend it or lose their investment!

[sandman25dcsss]

I wonder why you blame Summoning Circle, but say nothing about Demonic Weapon. +12 exta damage from each attack is a bit too much, don't you think? This is what I got on week 4 vs Troll, demonic weapon was the only spell the goblin had.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3164996272
And even direct attack (as if troll would attack the goblin instead) still shows the goblin as winner:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3164996057

[Kaysoky]

Just imagine if the player had access to Hiveminders (Tier 2 demon unit). They start with Planar Anchor (+5 damage for all demon allies), so the ideal composition would end up as all Hiveminders :D

[Vvv]

There are so many things more powerful with the demonologist than the summoning circle. I think I used it once just to see what it does. Like Sandman said, "summons are weak" cept maybe few exceptions, real units are better. And later on your demons can level up as well which is insane in both good and bad way kek.

Actually, the only thing I hope they do is that they make necromancy as fun as demonology now. A level 3 souls that gives "looter" feels like a huge let down now.