Please nerf wisps into little more than scouts

[suejak]

I am so tired of seeing players with high-end stacks with 2+ wisps in them. They are such a boring unit with boring art, boring deployment, boring resists, and boring versatility with a white damage ranged attack to boot.

We want to fielding a diverse field of interesting units, not generic swirly gases on every mage. They are bad for the game.

[Mindeveler]

Please don't.

Originally posted by suejak:

I am so tired of seeing players

Heaven forbid other people play the game the way they like.
Gameplay police doens't sleep!

[suejak]

Just looking for a better, more balanced game where every run is different, rather than a samey game where every run is the same.

[Mindeveler]

Well, as an artificer I started with 2 parties: 1 normal, 1 with wisps.
Both played differently.

Personally, I'm more concerned about other things.
I can't imagine playing any class other than artificer, it's just soooo good & versatile: crafting what you want + safely removing & replacing runes whenever you want.
I also can't imagine starting anywhere but dwarven lands as artificer because I need dat ore, experienced dwarven workers and adamantium mine.
I also can't imagine picking any other school combo except for earth + mentalism because the first one is too good for artificer and the second one has that +4 speed spell and follower spell.

I honestly don't know how I'm gonna play my second game.

[AeneasXI]

They already were nerfed before so he does have some ground here. The devs obviously didn't intend them to be such a strong unit and he got a point that you see wisps just about everywhere.

They are indeed quite strong for the low cost with great resistances, good melee and ranged attack which literally no other 1gold cost unit can do.

Its also easier to upkeep them since you can adjust your Allfire flow to get the Mana you need for the upkeep while you can't do the same for Gold so it makes little sense why a 1mana unit is so much stronger than any 1gold unit in the game.

Example: 1gold Archer has no resistances basically, low hp and garbage in melee.
1 gold goblin unit has the same amount of hp as a wisp but no resistances again and can't do any ranged attack,...

The only downside they have is that they do not scale because they can't earn XP but their versatility and physical resistance and the fact that you can even equip them with glyphs makes them very strong early game and even find use midgame since so many enemies have physical attacks.

Originally posted by Mindeveler:

Well, as an artificer I started with 2 parties: 1 normal, 1 with wisps.
Both played differently.

Personally, I'm more concerned about other things. :Owlcat_sad:
I can't imagine playing any class other than artificer, it's just soooo good & versatile: crafting what you want + safely removing & replacing runes whenever you want.
I also can't imagine starting anywhere but dwarven lands as artificer because I need dat ore, experienced dwarven workers and adamantium mine.
I also can't imagine picking any other school combo except for earth + mentalism because the first one is too good for artificer and the second one has that +4 speed spell and follower spell.

I honestly don't know how I'm gonna play my second game.

Same here. Artificer is really versatile and fun. Crafting glyphs and pimping/specialising your stacks is great fun indeed.

I do not 100% agree with the must start in 3rd region though. I played in 2nd region which basically borders the snow region to the north so you can easily move up to get all the ore you need. I have more ore than I can spend right now and I don't even moved my base up north.

Why not try Nature Artificer? I am playing that and its quite satisfying to walk up to an enemy stack that has Tier 2 Beasts like Bears or cougars and just using the spell to turn the animal to your side significantly weakening the enemy side and a bear/cougar for 2 mana upkeep is actually a steal. Also you can create primordial forests which are like little allfire nodes and summon packs of animals with a spell as well.

[suejak]

What's weird to me is they already pay for themselves as scouts. You're basically guaranteed to find a mana stash somewhere, not to mention other stuff that can be sold for gold or used in crafting. Or just pure gold stacks on the map.

Having them be viable troops even in end-game armies (esp. against the undead, but they have 50% phys resist that can be boosted to 100% with Earth Armor) just seems so boring to me. It really hurts unit diversity, since every mage has access to the same wisps. And their art is boring too :P

[AeneasXI]

Originally posted by suejak:

What's weird to me is they already pay for themselves as scouts. You're basically guaranteed to find a mana stash somewhere, not to mention other stuff that can be sold for gold or used in crafting. Or just pure gold stacks on the map.

Having them be viable troops even in end-game armies (esp. against the undead, but they have 50% phys resist that can be boosted to 100% with Earth Armor) just seems so boring to me. It really hurts unit diversity, since every mage has access to the same wisps. And their art is boring too :P

Their art indeed is quite boring. Maybe they should nerf their resistances a bit and/ or make them have less hp/less range for their ranged attack or something along those lines.

[suejak]

I would mind them less if every mage had different wisps/summons or something like that. My only issue is how samey they feel, because they're good at too many roles for every wizard.

[Dreadmoon "Nescera"]

why should i play wisp when you have better units?

1. Guardian page have a upgraded Wisp

2. Enchanter page get Phantasmal Warriors "something like that?"

3. Earth Shaper with Base 50% phys res + 25% ele res "when you level up this unit you can get 100% phys dmg resist and over 65% ele resist "without glyphs"

And you start always with one Earth Shaper unit when you choose earthmaster for your main page.


Even units like Goblins with Armor + Health + Goblin Shaman buff and so on are better then wisp in a long term.
My T1 Goblins have 90HP, 12 Armor 10 Willpower 50% Phys reduction and 50% ele Reduction "Gylph and level 10+"

ofc Wisps are rly strong in the early stages and with Invest like Summon Binding from Enchanter page "+1Speed +1 Armor, Glyphs like Phys resist, ele resist, Life steal or More HP they are mid/late game viable.

[Celeborn]

Originally posted by Dreadmoon "Nescera":

why should i play wisp when you have better units?

1. Guardian page have a upgraded Wisp

2. Enchanter page get Phantasmal Warriors "something like that?"

3. Earth Shaper with Base 50% phys res + 25% ele res "when you level up this unit you can get 100% phys dmg resist and over 65% ele resist "without glyphs"

And you start always with one Earth Shaper unit when you choose earthmaster for your main page.


Even units like Goblins with Armor + Health + Goblin Shaman buff and so on are better then wisp in a long term.
My T1 Goblins have 90HP, 12 Armor 10 Willpower 50% Phys reduction and 50% ele Reduction "Gylph and level 10+"

ofc Wisps are rly strong in the early stages and with Invest like Summon Binding from Enchanter page "+1Speed +1 Armor, Glyphs like Phys resist, ele resist, Life steal or More HP they are mid/late game viable.

I agree that especially now after the nerf there are better units and the wisps themselves do not hold up as much as they dead especially depending on where you are. First playthrough had them go through the southern mid undead area and was really easy now can't really auto resolve without losing them or doesn't hold up as much as they did before. I am also glad to know from this post that its the guardian that gives the upgraded wisp I was wondering about that lol.

Also wisps help out for lot of players with how the game is currently especially in the early game where gold is such an issue to where if lose the beginning follower units will be really held back.

[Jimib4158]

pffft OP is wrong imo

[HozzMidnight]

I generally am not a fan of nerfing single player games. Unless it is something game breaking and I don't think wisp are that. Just don't use them to fight with if you think they are too good.

That said, when they said they were nerfing wisps I understood why. Hero/Apprentice and 5 wisps is easy to get early and was a strong army against undead all the way to end game. I am surprised they did not nerf them more.

[Jimib4158]

Originally posted by HozzMidnight:

I generally am not a fan of nerfing single player games. Unless it is something game breaking and I don't think wisp are that. Just don't use them to fight with if you think they are too good.

That said, when they said they were nerfing wisps I understood why. Hero/Apprentice and 5 wisps is easy to get early and was a strong army against undead all the way to end game. I am surprised they did not nerf them more.

just my 2c, not really usable to end, unless SB hardness :/ not trying to be technical, just didnt want to anyone to think higher levels just build wisps

BUT yeah before say the 3rd month wisps are really usefull at defending yourself why you seek out other ways to get good units

[easytarget]

Generally speaking this isn't the sort of game that lends itself to the buff/nerf thing.

It's SP just like the MuHa remake of MoM and part of the charm of both is discovering ways to make your army effective or even OP.

In fantasy SP games the way of balance is the path to mediocrity not artistry.

[AeneasXI]

Originally posted by easytarget:

Generally speaking this isn't the sort of game that lends itself to the buff/nerf thing.

It's SP just like the MuHa remake of MoM and part of the charm of both is discovering ways to make your army effective or even OP.

In fantasy SP games the way of balance is the path to mediocrity not artistry.

Also people actually tend to enjoy being OP. I experienced that through modding HoI4.

The mods I made that made certain things OP like increasing factory output were hugely popular while the mod doing the opposite and tuning factory output down for a more "balanced" or tempered game or just buffing the factory output a little bit were not even close to as popular as the completely OP buff mods.

I am speaking the difference being like the OP version of the mod getting 30 000+ downloads while the small buff version of the mod only a few hundred to a few thousands. The difference was so stark it was truly amazing to behold.
My most OP versions of my mods were always the most downloaded. The more OP the merrier, with people sometimes even requesting versions that were even more OP. xD

Being OP means being powerful and being powerful is fun! The only games that suffer from OP builds are multiplayer competetive games.

[Mindeveler]

Originally posted by AeneasXI:

My most OP versions of my mods were always the most downloaded. The more OP the merrier, with people sometimes even requesting versions that were even more OP. xD

Mwahahaha.
I can relate. xD
My most successful mod is a cheat editor mod.