Planet defenses are completely worthless

[Rooster]

The starbases are completely lackluster and the turrets are absolutely useless. They definitely need a buff.

[RaozSpaz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gorwe:

can you shoot down that torpedo of its?

Technically yes. But it takes an absolute crap ton of PD to shoot it down. And if there is a volley of them incoming, you'll likely only stop 1 MAYBE 2.

[mr.bouh]

Diposting pertama kali oleh RaozSpaz:

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

Why do you consider that the enemy wouldn't move its fleet to defend itself ? You can have defenses in more than one location.

You are considering that the enemy is not playing. That he's sitting idly in his fortified system. That's not how it works.

Defenses make for fall back locations for the fleet. If the enemy attack a system, it buys time for your fleet to come and fight the enemy on favorable ground. If he doesn't attack, you can attack the enemy. If there are no defenses, you can send a mere squadron of planet destruction ships and take the planet.

Defenses can protect from a small raid (sometimes even from a moderate one), supporting your fleet, and delaying the enemy.

You're making it like the only single role defenses should have is to repel a large invasion force without any support from a fleet.

Not to be rude, but your utter lack of capability to read what people are saying is baffling. My original post that you replied to was talking about a situation where a player was trapped by another player and there was only 1 way into their territory. Im not saying that the other player isn't playing. The whole theory was built around the concept of that he can't do much of anything besides attack out of his 1 way in/out [which that terminology is even used in the post you quoted].

If your opponent traps you in a situation like this, they need to commit less to keeping you trapped, then you have to commit to escaping the trap. Thus the player that IS trapped is at a major disadvantage. Your original post that I replied to said, and I quote:

What is this trap in the first place ? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're saying that the enemy is trapped, but you can invade the rest of his empire. How ? You can stop his fleet with your defenses but he cannot ? You can invade his empire but he cannot invade yours ? How do you trap a fleet in an actual game where the enemy is playing and not waiting for you to destroy him ? Your words don't make sense. The situation you describe does not exist in the game.

Unless defenses are actually working. Is that what you're describing ? Orbital defenses doing exactly what they're supposed to do ?

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

There is also the tier3 when you can build defenses that can stop an enemy fleet completely because the enemy doesn't have siege ships yet.

Which is inherently wrong. As Ive stated multiple times Kanraks/Javelis/Aerias, shoot. Even Harkas and Oppressors to an extent can defeat anything a player can achieve defensively with t3 tech. Believe me. Ive seen Kanraks devour fully upgraded Starbases. Even with lots of healing available.

And then for your newest post Im going to requote

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

You're making it like the only single role defenses should have is to repel a large invasion force without any support from a fleet

In which I never once said anything of the sort.
The one who is trapped cant really do much with their fleet since they are trapped behind their opponent's wall.
And the one who is doing the trap will continue to use their fleet to expand until everything is captured. If either attacks the other, of course fleets will be involved to turn the tide one way or the other. Thats the common sense of the game and Ive never said otherwise.

A fleet of kanrak/javelis/aeria that can destroy a fortified system will take ages to do so and suffer large casualties, or is a full 1500 supply fleet.

Let's take an example with a TEC planet with 30 orbital defense slot (so no so much for a TEC planet). Let's say there's a starbase, 10 hangars and 5 retrofit bays, upgraded with tier3 tech. Let's say there are all the fighters bay on the starbase. That's 34 squadrons, so equivalent to 17 percherons, and the PD makes for an equivalent of 32 garda. Each retrofit bay (upgraded) is a bit more than 2 hoshikos, so a total of 10 (conservative estimation). That's about 500 supply of ships. But those structures have 600 durability (more for the starbase), and your fleets don't have 600 piercing. It's like your fleet is actually half its size. This makes this fortified planet equivalent to 1000 supply of fleet. I'm not even adding garrison or planet items. With those you can fight a 1500 supply fleet if there are no siege cruisers or a titan (maybe you need to go up to 40 or 50 orbital defense slots).

Before you say anything about this, I know the game is much more complicated than converting structures into equivalent supply. Structures don't move, and it is indeed a big drawback. I know the advent can make more fighters to get air supremacy (but will he have had prepared for this ?). Kanrak bypass shields. I made very conservative assumptions for this reason (450 pierce vs 600 durability is 40% damage, 15% vs 1000 durability ; 30 orbital slots is not the most you can have).

[RaozSpaz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

What is this trap in the first place ? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. You're saying that the enemy is trapped, but you can invade the rest of his empire. How ? You can stop his fleet with your defenses but he cannot ? You can invade his empire but he cannot invade yours ? How do you trap a fleet in an actual game where the enemy is playing and not waiting for you to destroy him ? Your words don't make sense. The situation you describe does not exist in the game.

Unless defenses are actually working. Is that what you're describing ? Orbital defenses doing exactly what they're supposed to do ?

Holy crap you continue to fail to read. Again, this whole scenario was assuming that the 'trapped' player has only 1 way into his territory. I wasn't saying that the other player could take over the rest of his empire [obviously he cant. There is only 1 way in and obviously the defender will be there as there is no point being elsewhere]. Having a single way into your empire is both beneficial and detrimental.

The 'rest of the galaxy' was me talking about all the other planets that are away from said chokepoint. This sort of situation can sometimes happen on random maps where one player's start is thin and stringy and the second player takes one of the planets leading into this series of planets. If its far enough away from the galactic core, its unlikely these jump lanes will ever change as all the planets maintain generally the same orbit.

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

A fleet of kanrak/javelis/aeria that can destroy a fortified system will take ages to do so and suffer large casualties, or is a full 1500 supply fleet.

Umm. No actually. In the situation listed above [the whole trapped situation] probably yes because the fleets are present due to the chokepoint situation that is being created.

But in a situation of just fleet versus defenses 1000 fleet of caps, kanraks, and like 2 - 3 factory ships will handle most if not all defenses with relative ease. I have seen it happen countless times. Which goes in line with the original point of this topic of defenses being worthless [which they are not, but by themselves they are relatively easy to defeat even in optimum setups].

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

Let's take an example with a TEC planet with 30 orbital defense slot (so no so much for a TEC planet). Let's say there's a starbase, 10 hangars and 5 retrofit bays, upgraded with tier3 tech. Let's say there are all the fighters bay on the starbase. That's 34 squadrons, so equivalent to 17 percherons, and the PD makes for an equivalent of 32 garda. Each retrofit bay (upgraded) is a bit more than 2 hoshikos, so a total of 10 (conservative estimation). That's about 500 supply of ships. But those structures have 600 durability (more for the starbase), and your fleets don't have 600 piercing. It's like your fleet is actually half its size. This makes this fortified planet equivalent to 1000 supply of fleet. I'm not even adding garrison or planet items. With those you can fight a 1500 supply fleet if there are no siege cruisers or a titan (maybe you need to go up to 40 or 50 orbital defense slots).

The problem with this is the situation burst damage. But ill take it in pieces.
Starbase PD says it has a lot, but typically only 4 PDs are even on point. And upgraded Kanraks are going to outrange it so it cant effectively fight back>
Hangar PDs are even shorter range, but similar to Garda they are front/back facing so only half are ever engaging at a time. Due to their short range you typically have to have them in front of the star base in order for them to PD for it. But there is a problem to this.
If you put the hangars up front, the AI targets them over the starbase.
Now to Repair Bays. Yes they have exceptionally good healing. But they cannot outheal the burst damage of a focused Kanrak barrage. And that is EXACTLY what the AI does with Kanraks. They choose a building, and focus it into the dirt. Does the repair bays extend how long things take. Oh most certainly. No disagreement there. But the Kanraks will win.
Garrisons are okay, but unless you are seriously spamming factories, more often than not the enemy can overwhelm the garrison production. As it eventually turns into a trickle of forces. And when I say spamming I mean like 7 factories on planet and at least 2 to 3 on 2 others. The difficulty for garrisons is getting on targets that actually matter. If you try to target down the Kanraks then you're just going to get your garrison ships killed for little benefit. Going after the factory ships can at least slow their reinforcement rate, but doesn't immediately reduce the damage you're taking.

Another added point. The fighter slots on the Starbase I have to agree are by far one of the worst options because of how strikecraft currently function.
Against Advent as you stated in your 'before you reply to this' section, you are always going to get out air superioritied.
At least against Vasari you can use bombers and have sustainable damage on choice targets, though going after their carriers is a death sentence.

Since you were trying to give an example, I will give you an example I just suffered through in a recent game.
Planet is the target of attack. Due to the situation I am being forced into super defense mode so it has 7 factories, a starbase with docking boon, 6 repair bays, and autocannons. Cause at this point anti-frigate is more useful than anti-capital. [Also as a note this is a situation where I was trapped like in the above section of this post. Enemy could take what was left of the galaxy and I was stuck with the planets behind my front door. This is the Triad map BTW] The two asteroids behind the ice planet are garrisons with 1 factory and a starbase with manufacturing capability
Thankfully due to the situation I was able to shift my defenses closer to the border in order to allow the Starbase and Autocannons to fire upon anything that enters the gravity well.
Enemy invades. This is the 4th time theyve invaded. Between the two AI players [cause AI always gang up on the player in a 3P] they bring about 1.6k of forces consisting heavily of Aeria's and Kanraks. My fleet consists of a support oriented Akkan, 3 Kols built to protect themselves as best as possible from missile fire, and a small group of Hoshikos.
The battle is an absolute slog, but I am struggling to get persistent damage. Between the 50ish Kanraks and 50ish tempests as well as the 20-30 mixed carriers [vasari/advent], they are slowly working through various ships and defenses. I am legit building repair bays as autocannons fall just to have more instances of healing for my ships and garrison ships. Thankfully the bombers have grown so scattered on their attack patterns they are not doing serious damage.
It takes my Ankylon being built mid battle to make the capital ships flee [they have the anti-phase inhibitor equipment]. My Ankylon and fleet combined with the SBs firepower finally slowly clean up what is left of the enemy's forces.

This battle took about 40 minutes of real life time as the enemy never stopped reinforcing. Several times my ships armor got incredibly low and my focus had to go onto pulling agro off said ships. 2 of them even had to retreat. Repair from crippled. And return into the battle whilst it was still going.

Now. Imagine this exact scenario with no support fleet. It wouldve been a massacre. Even with the Starbase restoring anti-matter to the repair bays things were struggling to maintain. It was only because the enemy's fire got so split up that it was even managing. And thats with a fleet in play.

And note. This was the third of 4 times having to repeat this situation. As each time the enemy was not weakened enough for me to move out [nor was I big enough]. Each battle taking upwards of 40ish real life minutes.

[DM|Hachbubuch]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

Diposting pertama kali oleh RaozSpaz:

Let's take an example with a TEC planet with 30 orbital defense slot (so no so much for a TEC planet). Let's say there's a starbase, 10 hangars and 5 retrofit bays, upgraded with tier3 tech. Let's say there are all the fighters bay on the starbase. That's 34 squadrons, so equivalent to 17 percherons, and the PD makes for an equivalent of 32 garda. Each retrofit bay (upgraded) is a bit more than 2 hoshikos, so a total of 10 (conservative estimation). That's about 500 supply of ships. But those structures have 600 durability (more for the starbase), and your fleets don't have 600 piercing. It's like your fleet is actually half its size. This makes this fortified planet equivalent to 1000 supply of fleet. I'm not even adding garrison or planet items. With those you can fight a 1500 supply fleet if there are no siege cruisers or a titan (maybe you need to go up to 40 or 50 orbital defense slots).

Before you say anything about this, I know the game is much more complicated than converting structures into equivalent supply. Structures don't move, and it is indeed a big drawback. I know the advent can make more fighters to get air supremacy (but will he have had prepared for this ?). Kanrak bypass shields. I made very conservative assumptions for this reason (450 pierce vs 600 durability is 40% damage, 15% vs 1000 durability ; 30 orbital slots is not the most you can have).

The defenses you are describing are cost nearly as much as a good 1500 fleet. Besides I think even in this situation the opponent can just continue spamming his t3 units to win, he can respond more thoughfully. 100 Tosuraks giving their lives to this magnificent defense formation would give him enough resourses to spawn 2000 fleet with titan and start spamming his own defense structures. As an advent I'd just build 4 Revelation battleships with 50 tempests in addition to my aeria fleet, and that would be enough to destroy defences with 0 losses. TEC, maybe, do not have an answer, how to counter these defences easilly. As TEC Primacy I think i'd just continue teching into mass pirates (they cost almost 3 times less than ships of their quality). They have so much PD, hangars and rockets would immediately become useless. And as TEC Enclave I'd set a garrison at the nearest planet and send free ships time-to-time. However... do TEC really need to push enemies unless 2000 with their magnificent economy? Even if he's trapped and cannot go anywhere he'd just have an easy tech. Okay, I'm not saying TEC can totally humiliate mass defences. Still, other 2 factions do. So we have a situation, which happens very rarely (really, how many maps leave your at least 4-planets empire with just 1 entrance for significant time? I remember 2), in which you can use mass defenses against 1 faction out of 3, and it is certainly not the only good strategy even in these situations. Well, for me it's not quite enough.

[RaozSpaz]

Yeah. Everything in the above post is pretty well accurate.

TEC [speaking from experience] can survive in this situation. Assuming you're willing to commit and struggle. But it isnt pleasant.

[mr.bouh]

Your words, you're talking about 1.6k fleet. I said repeatedly that yes, such a large fleet would be able to destroy orbital defenses. And a multi-racial fleet is harder to counter with defenses.

Autocanon turrets are not good to make, because as you've seen they get outranged. They're good only if the enemy fields "short" range frigates. Gauss turrets are much better, because they will eat through capital ships. But hangars are the best because of their flexibility : fighters can fight strikecrafts, and bombers can destroy large ships. The same goes on a starbase : hangar bays are the most reliable defense AND offense. Heavy weapons are good to counter capital ships and others that go too close. Small weapons are niche, only useful to counter a specific fleet.

Against the AI, it destroying structures before the starbase is an excellent thing. It makes a buffer for the strikecrafts to do their job.

I'm confident a fortified orbit can repel a 1000 supply fleet of kanrak. Yiu may need to micro the defense a bit (targeting the kanrak before the capital ships, unlike what the AI will do by itself). With TECE garrison, the kanrak have no chance of winning that battle.

[DM|Hachbubuch]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

Your words, you're talking about 1.6k fleet. I said repeatedly that yes, such a large fleet would be able to destroy orbital defenses. And a multi-racial fleet is harder to counter with defenses.

Autocanon turrets are not good to make, because as you've seen they get outranged. They're good only if the enemy fields "short" range frigates. Gauss turrets are much better, because they will eat through capital ships. But hangars are the best because of their flexibility : fighters can fight strikecrafts, and bombers can destroy large ships. The same goes on a starbase : hangar bays are the most reliable defense AND offense. Heavy weapons are good to counter capital ships and others that go too close. Small weapons are niche, only useful to counter a specific fleet.

Against the AI, it destroying structures before the starbase is an excellent thing. It makes a buffer for the strikecrafts to do their job.

I'm confident a fortified orbit can repel a 1000 supply fleet of kanrak. Yiu may need to micro the defense a bit (targeting the kanrak before the capital ships, unlike what the AI will do by itself). With TECE garrison, the kanrak have no chance of winning that battle.

Why are we so focused on Canracs, when Vazari have Tosurak, a ship which can quickly destroy all orbital structures except starbase (well, starbase too, but not so quickly) and gain huge benefits from it? I even usually try to make them damage separate buildings, totally ignoring repair bays to make maximum resourses out of structures. For Vazari orbital defense structures are just huge bags of gold, even if he loses all the raiding ships.

[RaozSpaz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM|Hachbubuch:

This is just a quick reply to you. The reason Kanraks [and other T3 ships] are the focus of my point was because although yes Tosuraks can chew threw things decently well. Defenses can actually fight them. And quite well at that.

What you are right about is that they are even more spammable and effective, its just you'll take losses when attacking certain defense setups compared to Kanraks/Javelis/Aeria which can outrange basically anything.

[RaozSpaz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

Your words, you're talking about 1.6k fleet. I said repeatedly that yes, such a large fleet would be able to destroy orbital defenses. And a multi-racial fleet is harder to counter with defenses.

Autocanon turrets are not good to make, because as you've seen they get outranged. They're good only if the enemy fields "short" range frigates. Gauss turrets are much better, because they will eat through capital ships. But hangars are the best because of their flexibility : fighters can fight strikecrafts, and bombers can destroy large ships. The same goes on a starbase : hangar bays are the most reliable defense AND offense. Heavy weapons are good to counter capital ships and others that go too close. Small weapons are niche, only useful to counter a specific fleet.

Against the AI, it destroying structures before the starbase is an excellent thing. It makes a buffer for the strikecrafts to do their job.

I'm confident a fortified orbit can repel a 1000 supply fleet of kanrak. Yiu may need to micro the defense a bit (targeting the kanrak before the capital ships, unlike what the AI will do by itself). With TECE garrison, the kanrak have no chance of winning that battle.

Holy crap once again you focus too heavily onto one point of the statement and not the entire statement. Yes. In my example I used a 1.6k fleet. But my point was that it was a struggle even with a supporting fleet. Going back to your original post, you know. The one that started this entire discussion.

That T3 defenses basically make your defensive line impenetrable. Is ENTIRELY false. Even with just the 1k supply of T3 [or the 1.2k for Vasari]. A maximum upgraded T3 defensive line cannot self handle those fleets. DM brings up the amazing points of using Tosuraks as well as an option, which is a T1 ship that decimates structures in high quantities.

Autocannon vs Gauss vs Hangars. Yes, Autocannons are not the best. And typically I do build either Gauss or Hangars. HOWEVER, with the fact they were in range of the jump point meant they could immediately provide assistance at killing all the invading frigates which was the biggest struggle of that defensive line.
Hangars are by far the worst. Because the only time the Hangar actually does anything that can be considered contributing to your defense is when your enemy is Vasari and you're using bombers. Where you can then use said bombers to focus on doing damage on ships. If the enemy is Advent, you're almost certainly going to lose Air Superiority, making any supply of Hangar Defenses a moot point. If your enemy is Vasari and you have fighters, your fighters are either going to pitifully tickle things, or waste time trying to shoot down bombers ineffectively. If your enemy is TEC you might stand a chance depending on the enemy's composition. Might being a key term there.
Gauss are reliable, especially since they can chunk down capital ships. But in my above example the Capital Ships weren't even the issue. Hence the usage of autocannons.

As for the last of your post. Ive seen a fleet of less than 1k of Cap Ships and 'mostly' kanraks [a couple other random ships tossed in] handle a defensive planet with two supporting garrison planets [as well as its own garrison]. The problem is without constantly redetermining the agro of your garrisons they dont focus well enough to actually kill the Kanraks which have constant regen on Hull and Shields.

Small Edit to the last paragraph: Even in the case they kill a few Kanraks, the AI likes to have the mobile factories to replace said ships, or on smaller maps legit just fly in more ships

[mr.bouh]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM|Hachbubuch:

The defenses you are describing are cost nearly as much as a good 1500 fleet. Besides I think even in this situation the opponent can just continue spamming his t3 units to win, he can respond more thoughfully. 100 Tosuraks giving their lives to this magnificent defense formation would give him enough resourses to spawn 2000 fleet with titan and start spamming his own defense structures. As an advent I'd just build 4 Revelation battleships with 50 tempests in addition to my aeria fleet, and that would be enough to destroy defences with 0 losses. TEC, maybe, do not have an answer, how to counter these defences easilly. As TEC Primacy I think i'd just continue teching into mass pirates (they cost almost 3 times less than ships of their quality). They have so much PD, hangars and rockets would immediately become useless. And as TEC Enclave I'd set a garrison at the nearest planet and send free ships time-to-time. However... do TEC really need to push enemies unless 2000 with their magnificent economy? Even if he's trapped and cannot go anywhere he'd just have an easy tech. Okay, I'm not saying TEC can totally humiliate mass defences. Still, other 2 factions do. So we have a situation, which happens very rarely (really, how many maps leave your at least 4-planets empire with just 1 entrance for significant time? I remember 2), in which you can use mass defenses against 1 faction out of 3, and it is certainly not the only good strategy even in these situations. Well, for me it's not quite enough.

50 tempests would do nothing against a starbase. 4 Revelation would indeed neuter the defenses, but this has nothing to do with the defense itself.

100 Tosurak would do absolutely nothing against a fortified starbase.

From these discussions, I feel like no one is building hangar bays, either in the orbital defenses or in the starbase itself. That's a mistake.

And you're mistaken. TEC is actually the best equipped to fight a fortified planet because of the kalev frigate. This is the only single ship outside of capital ships that can efficiently destroy structures.

You're right with one thing though : orbital defenses are not as economically efficient as ships. But you don't build orbital defenses because they're cheap.

One role that people are ignoring for orbital defenses is that a defended planet will force the enemy to commit its fleet to take it. If you have a rich planet somewhere far, it's a win-win for you to protect it, because either the enemy leave it alone because it's fortified and far away, or it commits its fleet to take it, and it means you have a lot of time to attack him with your fleet. Obviously you can also make a backup place or a spearhead for an invasion too.

I have 3 levels of fortifications : basic fortification is 2 hangars and a healing building to repel planet destroyers. Light fortification is a starbase with 3 or modules (usually those that don't cost exotic) and 10 to 20 orbital slots of defenses to repel small raids (NPC raids for example), I usually do this in mid game to save money, and in late game it's a first line that can be upgraded if the enemy is looking in this direction. And heavy fortification is the starbase fully equipped, and the orbital defenses maxed. During mid game my economy start overflowing anyway so unless I lose a fleet I have more than enough to invest in defenses.

[RaozSpaz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

50 tempests would do nothing against a starbase. 4 Revelation would indeed neuter the defenses, but this has nothing to do with the defense itself.

100 Tosurak would do absolutely nothing against a fortified starbase.

And you're mistaken. TEC is actually the best equipped to fight a fortified planet because of the kalev frigate. This is the only single ship outside of capital ships that can efficiently destroy structures.

Ha ha ha. You have not seen Tosuraks versus structures XD They devour them. The only saving grace for the starbase assuming its fully upgraded for T3 is its large armor strength value. The Tosuraks would have a little bit of an issue chewing through that, but once thats gone its back to decimation. Even just 100 Tosuraks can clear a grav well of buildings extremely quickly. And thats only like 400 supply? I think they are 4 per.

The Kalevs are . . . Interesting. Compared to the Javelis they do have higher pierce yes, but their DPS is typically half that of the Javelis. Also I believe they actually have to be in range of the starbase to fire at it. Sure Javelis' missles can be shot down, but when they are so many of them it doesn't matter.

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

From these discussions, I feel like no one is building hangar bays, either in the orbital defenses or in the starbase itself. That's a mistake.

Ive built them. Tons of times. They just dont work reliably. More often than not Id rather have legitimately anything else versus basically any enemy force composition than Hangars. ESPECIALLY for the Starbase, where it takes 4 slots to get the best benefit, and depending on the enemy force might get entirely neutered. At least with Beams and Missiles your Starbase can defend itself against shorter range opponents.

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

I have 3 levels of fortifications : basic fortification is 2 hangars and a healing building to repel planet destroyers. Light fortification is a starbase with 3 or modules (usually those that don't cost exotic) and 10 to 20 orbital slots of defenses to repel small raids (NPC raids for example), I usually do this in mid game to save money, and in late game it's a first line that can be upgraded if the enemy is looking in this direction. And heavy fortification is the starbase fully equipped, and the orbital defenses maxed. During mid game my economy start overflowing anyway so unless I lose a fleet I have more than enough to invest in defenses.

At least thats one thing you and I get along in is tiered level of defenses depending on threat level. Of course a pair of hangars can handle planet destroyers >.> They dont fight back. 4 autocannons can do the same. Or 2 gauss cannons. Legit anything works there.

Against Aluxian/Pirate raids the same generally applies. Hangars are fine here because the enemy doesn't really have whats necessary to just neuter them into the dirt.

Its when you're fighting faction fleets that Hangars typically get neutered. Though I will reiterate that Im not saying they dont have moments they can't be good. Its just more often than not anything else is typically better.

[DM|Hachbubuch]

Diposting pertama kali oleh mr.bouh:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM|Hachbubuch:

The defenses you are describing are cost nearly as much as a good 1500 fleet. Besides I think even in this situation the opponent can just continue spamming his t3 units to win, he can respond more thoughfully. 100 Tosuraks giving their lives to this magnificent defense formation would give him enough resourses to spawn 2000 fleet with titan and start spamming his own defense structures. As an advent I'd just build 4 Revelation battleships with 50 tempests in addition to my aeria fleet, and that would be enough to destroy defences with 0 losses. TEC, maybe, do not have an answer, how to counter these defences easilly. As TEC Primacy I think i'd just continue teching into mass pirates (they cost almost 3 times less than ships of their quality). They have so much PD, hangars and rockets would immediately become useless. And as TEC Enclave I'd set a garrison at the nearest planet and send free ships time-to-time. However... do TEC really need to push enemies unless 2000 with their magnificent economy? Even if he's trapped and cannot go anywhere he'd just have an easy tech. Okay, I'm not saying TEC can totally humiliate mass defences. Still, other 2 factions do. So we have a situation, which happens very rarely (really, how many maps leave your at least 4-planets empire with just 1 entrance for significant time? I remember 2), in which you can use mass defenses against 1 faction out of 3, and it is certainly not the only good strategy even in these situations. Well, for me it's not quite enough.

50 tempests would do nothing against a starbase. 4 Revelation would indeed neuter the defenses, but this has nothing to do with the defense itself.

100 Tosurak would do absolutely nothing against a fortified starbase.

From these discussions, I feel like no one is building hangar bays, either in the orbital defenses or in the starbase itself. That's a mistake.

And you're mistaken. TEC is actually the best equipped to fight a fortified planet because of the kalev frigate. This is the only single ship outside of capital ships that can efficiently destroy structures.

You're right with one thing though : orbital defenses are not as economically efficient as ships. But you don't build orbital defenses because they're cheap.

One role that people are ignoring for orbital defenses is that a defended planet will force the enemy to commit its fleet to take it. If you have a rich planet somewhere far, it's a win-win for you to protect it, because either the enemy leave it alone because it's fortified and far away, or it commits its fleet to take it, and it means you have a lot of time to attack him with your fleet. Obviously you can also make a backup place or a spearhead for an invasion too.

I have 3 levels of fortifications : basic fortification is 2 hangars and a healing building to repel planet destroyers. Light fortification is a starbase with 3 or modules (usually those that don't cost exotic) and 10 to 20 orbital slots of defenses to repel small raids (NPC raids for example), I usually do this in mid game to save money, and in late game it's a first line that can be upgraded if the enemy is looking in this direction. And heavy fortification is the starbase fully equipped, and the orbital defenses maxed. During mid game my economy start overflowing anyway so unless I lose a fleet I have more than enough to invest in defenses.

100 tosuraks maybe have problems dealing with a fully upgraded starbase (I remember destroyng a starbase with no items by 40, losing only 4, but items do matter). But by the time they finish all the other defensive buildings, Vazari player is going to have a 2400 fleet and a ton of resourses, and all that fleet would easilly split in 2 halves: one is hunting down your main fleet, and other destroys the starbase, that's my point.
Tempests actually do damage starbases more effective than Kalevs. 6 Kalevs (42) do (6*7.5)*100/(100+1000-600) = 9 (0.21 per limit) damage. 7 Tempests (42) do (18.4*7)*100/(100+1000) = 11.7 damage (0.28 per limit). Not mentioning they have 2 upgrades till t3, which is, if I'm correct, +25% damage. Kalev gets 1 at t4 (or t3 maybe, don't quite remember) for only +10%. Well, with level 5 Akkan, Kalevs can get +30% AS, so it's mostly equal.
And I'm not talking about the endless swarm of drones that supports Tempests. Actually, I did some mathematics, and one Aeria full with bombers deals (3*6*5.1)*100/(100+1000-300)=11.5 damage (0.57 per limit), and if it is full with fighters (3*8*4)*100/(100+1000-50)=9.1 damage (0.46 per limit). So, I think, I'd better throw tempests out of my build and just continue to spam Aerias. 1300 limit of Aerias with bombers do 741 damage per second to a starbase. Okay, let's go down to 700, you have hangars, after all, that destroy strikecrafts almost as fast as I spawn them. A 28000hp starbase (hull+shields+armor + some repairs, it's around that) goes down in 40 seconds. By the way, when Advent's booming economy lets him build 1300 limit of Azrias, TEC can't afford a fully upgraded starbase.

Next, you say "people don't build orbital defences because they're cheap". Absolutely true, then why do they build orbital structures? Until now you've given me one example of a ridiculously rare situation when they can be as good as a fleet. Another example - defending a rich planet. When you spend resourses to defend a rich planet, enemy can just spam fleet and go destroy your capital. Oh, you have good defences here too? Too bad enemy is strong enough to break them and your fleet alike, because now you have spent twice as much, defending 2 planets, thus decreasing their resourse effectiveness in half. And it takes literally ages for a rich planet to give you back the resourses you've spent fortificating its orbit, it would be too late for your capital. If you spend resourses to fortify any planet other than the one leading to your capital, or your capital directly, you weaken your defences against enemy's straight invasion, and it's dangerous. And if you do spend resourses fortifying your capital, you lower defense of your other planets, because the defending fleet would be smaller, thus giving the enemy an opportunity to weaken your economics. And yet, I could take the risk in some cases, of defending my planets with structures, if defence structures were not so ridiculously expensive.

And again, I am not talking about the moment the "midgame economy starts overflowing". When economy overflows the structures basically start costing nothing at all. Do I need an enormous starbase that would buy me 40 seconds for free? Hell yes! Do I need it instead of 500 limit fleet? Definetely no.
What about basic fortification? It costs more than 2 carriers, which can do absolutely the same thing, being mobile, thus effectively evading enemy fire or even fleeing, saving your money in the face of overwhelming invading fleets.
Light to heavy fortification - everything I said before - too expensive to risk your capital defences.

[RaozSpaz]

Oh man if only Hangars could destroy strike craft that fast.
Edit: Beyond that fact I basically once more agree with everything DM says in that post XD

[Gorwe]

Gauss and Beam turrets are fine. Starbases mostly too. What about other forms of defense? Hangars are only good on Advent and "light turrets"(Autocannon / Laser / Plasma) don't actually do much. Support structures are fine.

So, how can light turrets be helped? Maybe give them limited AoE attacks? Maybe give them PD?

[Vandom]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gorwe:

Gauss and Beam turrets are fine. Starbases mostly too. What about other forms of defense? Hangars are only good on Advent and "light turrets"(Autocannon / Laser / Plasma) don't actually do much. Support structures are fine.

So, how can light turrets be helped? Maybe give them limited AoE attacks? Maybe give them PD?

It's funny I personally consider light turrets the only defence worth making for most of the game. But if you are going to buff them then adding PD is a good start. Adding a cripple state would add a lot of value without making them too strong.

The big issue that you need to consider is that the AI wont attack defences that will kill its fleet. Direct buffs will just make the AI to be even more passive, but wont change the outcome when it does decide to attack.