Starbases are... weak?

[Kaga]

I can't be the only one who feels that the current starbases compared to Sins 1 feel severely underpowered. I run TEC Enclave and build dual maxed out starbases... for what? For a 2-4 minute buffer? Most of the times I see my starbases only kill under 20 enemies. Like what's the point? I get that a large fleet will do damage but it's insane what a waste of resources any of the defensive structures are against mid to large fleets.

[Land]

I assume you upgraded them with the beams, missiles, the 3 tiers of defenses and whatever for the other 3 slots (maybe hangers or the big blowy up button)? that big blowy up button does tend to do significant damage to a fleet if it's close enough.

[ExavierMacbeth]

They seem to have three main issues...
1) The weapons range on the starbases isn't that good for a immobile battlestation. It can't actually shoot the enemy types that are a significant threat to it.
2) The targeting priorities on the station don't focus fire very well if the things that can kill it actually do get within range of it.
3) They are EXTREMELY vulnerable to currently long range missile doom stacks the AI like to build. So their health just sort of dissolve when 30+ (more commonly 60+) missile cruisers take aim at it...

EDIT: @Land... it doesn't matter. The missiles are the only thing that can match range with other missile ships and there just isn't enough of them (or targeted right) to help... and the defensive upgrades only buy you defense against 1 extra volley or so.

[Magus King]

I think one major problem is that Shield Mitigation is no longer a thing, so focus-firing down anything became MUCH easier to do in Sins 2 versus how it was in Rebellion.

[Naviss]

My only issue right now with them is range..... It's far too tiny to be a single placement structure.
It's tanky, holds its own until backup can come, But it needs more range to defend itself.

[Chaos]

Kinda, your best play for TEC Enclave now is the maxed garrison with twin tanky Starbase if you want to defense anything without your main fleet involve.

Since Tanking are all Starbase can do now...and it's not even that good at it.

[Kaga]

Originally posted by ExavierMacbeth:

They seem to have three main issues...
1) The weapons range on the starbases isn't that good for a immobile battlestation. It can't actually shoot the enemy types that are a significant threat to it.
2) The targeting priorities on the station don't focus fire very well if the things that can kill it actually do get within range of it.
3) They are EXTREMELY vulnerable to currently long range missile doom stacks the AI like to build. So their health just sort of dissolve when 30+ (more commonly 60+) missile cruisers take aim at it...

EDIT: @Land... it doesn't matter. The missiles are the only thing that can match range with other missile ships and there just isn't enough of them (or targeted right) to help... and the defensive upgrades only buy you defense against 1 extra volley or so.

This might be the case, yeah. I've noticed the AI on Hard and Unfair just missile spam them to death in no time flat. It also seems like the starbases just bug out? Whenever there's a lot of ships to target. Feels like not much damage actually gets done when they can shoot ships in their range.

I did read through that there's a problem with PD and Missiles interaction so that explains a lot why I'm getting demolished by missiles even with 150 flak frigates.

[Lywelyn]

Originally posted by Magus King:

I think one major problem is that Shield Mitigation is no longer a thing, so focus-firing down anything became MUCH easier to do in Sins 2 versus how it was in Rebellion.

i mean yeah i'm glad we got ride of that, Advent were way too powerfull with this.

but sins2 definitely need a balance rework overall on that matter since turrets now target whatever the hell they want, it work completely different than sins1
in the case of starbases, it indeed has no point to build them if they can't stand up to a fleet invading a system, doubly so for an enclave TEC player with a twin presence.

for what i've tested, you are much better stacking up reserve garrison than a starbase, better cost efficient, does not require to rotate, and do as much of a good job if not a better one.

as for the dismantle protocole to blow your own starbase for massive damage... yeah i've yet to see it having a chance to be effective. it make short work or tiny close range ships, but anyone with a higher fire range is pretty much safe to just drop in their fleet, auto cast everything and go manage something else

[birdzlittlehelper]

Modding the game is pretty straight forward. What sort of fix would you like to see on starbases? More Shields, Armor, Hull? Longer range weapons for the starbase? Just tell me a percentage for those and I'll see what I can do.

[DevilsKnock𝄡]

Originally posted by birdzlittlehelper:

Modding the game is pretty straight forward. What sort of fix would you like to see on starbases? More Shields, Armor, Hull? Longer range weapons for the starbase? Just tell me a percentage for those and I'll see what I can do.

Probably more range mostly and some type of missile nerf. I think the devs will probably address both but for sure missiles and PD should be looked at a bit. Starbases are actually pretty strong with their upgraded weapons against everything but missile ships as they get outranged hard, their PD is bad against swarms and missiles do a lot of damage to them (excluding tempests but they still bring it down through sheer swarming/attrition). I'm fine with starbases being kind of bad against the starbase killing cruisers but missiles just outclass even those.

I wouldn't mess with their health at all personally as they still take a long time to go down even when focused by a full fleet with titans. I think the main problem is they can't do anything against missile swarms and just get cheesed by those.

[ExavierMacbeth]

Originally posted by birdzlittlehelper:

Modding the game is pretty straight forward. What sort of fix would you like to see on starbases? More Shields, Armor, Hull? Longer range weapons for the starbase? Just tell me a percentage for those and I'll see what I can do.

Hmm that can be tricky since I don't think it really needs flat numbers increase. It needs mechanics adjustments.

For the range issue maybe try doubling the range, that would let it cover most small gravity wells & at least cover a good chunk of a bigger one.

For the targetting issues I don't think there is anything a mod could do for it unless you can figure out how to keep it from switching targets every shot it fires (thats why they don't seem to do alot of damage, it spread out too much).

For the death by incomming missiles the only thing I can think of as a stop gap (until PD issues can be fixed) would be to bake in a version of the Reactive Armor Item you can install on capital ships... that -35% missile damage is noticeable.

As an added bonus I would probably triple/quad the Health/Armor/Shield buffs given by the various defense plating items to make them more useful & tempting to spend a slot on.

[Malaficus Shaikan]

This was a problem in the first game too.
Once you reach crititical mass nothing will stop your death fleets.

To me star bases are just trade/culture ports that can defend themselves.

[birdzlittlehelper]

I'll test some things out, see what seems to work better. Looks like the PD weapons have a 1 second cooldown between shoots, so that is probably why they are pretty bad against swarms of missiles. I'm gonna try lowering that first to see if they are better at stopping most missiles. If someone knows the base targeting priorities in the game that could also be useful. It seems they are default set to target both missiles and strike craft with the priority given to whatever "best_target_in_range" means.

[birdzlittlehelper]

Originally posted by ExavierMacbeth:

Originally posted by birdzlittlehelper:

Modding the game is pretty straight forward. What sort of fix would you like to see on starbases? More Shields, Armor, Hull? Longer range weapons for the starbase? Just tell me a percentage for those and I'll see what I can do.

Hmm that can be tricky since I don't think it really needs flat numbers increase. It needs mechanics adjustments.

For the range issue maybe try doubling the range, that would let it cover most small gravity wells & at least cover a good chunk of a bigger one.

For the targetting issues I don't think there is anything a mod could do for it unless you can figure out how to keep it from switching targets every shot it fires (thats why they don't seem to do alot of damage, it spread out too much).

For the death by incomming missiles the only thing I can think of as a stop gap (until PD issues can be fixed) would be to bake in a version of the Reactive Armor Item you can install on capital ships... that -35% missile damage is noticeable.

As an added bonus I would probably triple/quad the Health/Armor/Shield buffs given by the various defense plating items to make them more useful & tempting to spend a slot on.

So I tried tripling the hull/armor/shields of the starbase and it mostly just broke the AI. Had 2 starbase in my home system, along with maxed defensive slots of hangars and turrets, and the unfair AI opponent just refused to come to my home system, even with all other systems conquered by them. I had to scuttle all other defenses before the AI would finally attack me.

Looks like this issue will be better solved by a nerf to missiles rather than a buff to anything else.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

Here is the rub... missiles based ships(including caps) are kinda weak vs point defences, its the sheer number of missiles that somehow render PD useless against them to the point a pure PD max cap doesn't do jack to the missile swarm.

Originally posted by birdzlittlehelper:

Originally posted by ExavierMacbeth:

Hmm that can be tricky since I don't think it really needs flat numbers increase. It needs mechanics adjustments.

For the range issue maybe try doubling the range, that would let it cover most small gravity wells & at least cover a good chunk of a bigger one.

For the targetting issues I don't think there is anything a mod could do for it unless you can figure out how to keep it from switching targets every shot it fires (thats why they don't seem to do alot of damage, it spread out too much).

For the death by incomming missiles the only thing I can think of as a stop gap (until PD issues can be fixed) would be to bake in a version of the Reactive Armor Item you can install on capital ships... that -35% missile damage is noticeable.

As an added bonus I would probably triple/quad the Health/Armor/Shield buffs given by the various defense plating items to make them more useful & tempting to spend a slot on.

So I tried tripling the hull/armor/shields of the starbase and it mostly just broke the AI. Had 2 starbase in my home system, along with maxed defensive slots of hangars and turrets, and the unfair AI opponent just refused to come to my home system, even with all other systems conquered by them. I had to scuttle all other defenses before the AI would finally attack me.

Looks like this issue will be better solved by a nerf to missiles rather than a buff to anything else.

[Madnuss]

starbases are not worth it, neither are any of the other defences