The Akkan is garbage and we need to stop pretending it isn't.

[Frostiken]

UPDATE: To summarize what we've concluded in this thread:

1) The Akkan is criminally undergunned. Its guns are distributed poorly, and those guns themselves are so weak as to be completely worthless. In terms of guns and defenses, the Akkan brings absolutely nothing to the fight. While the Akkan's firepower in SOASE 1 was not ideal, it DID put nearly all the guns on one side, which is why it had the entire 'broadside' thing going on. In SOASE 2 the guns are evenly distributed, and the guns are nearly the weakest in the game. It can only bring half its weapons to bear on a single target, and those weapons are literally equivalent to two Cobalts and ONE PD gun.

2) The Colonize ability is incredibly weak. By the time you hit midgame you don't really care about "saving" 5 supply and resources spent on a colony ship. However, because the Akkan gives you free Logistics slots, it's also worthless early-game, because you frankly don't have anything to use in those slots. As near I can tell, it was intended to just give you space to build a trade port, but in the early expansion, trade ports are gated behind research (that you probably won't make top priority) and trade ports are VERY expensive. SOASE 1 the Colonize ability gave you free orbital extractors with a big production bonus. Right now, the Vasari Expansion Minor Faction gives EVERY capital ship a colonize ability and you don't even have to pay money for it. AND IT GIVES YOU BOTH FREE LOGISTICS AND FREE MINING SLOTS. It is straight up superior to the Akkan, and it's available right from the beginning of the game with just the first level of Influence Points, and it can be put on anything. Congratulations, your Marza is now better than the Akkan at the only thing you'd pull an Akkan early to do.

3) Inspiring Broadcast only becomes useful when applied to sufficiently large deathballs. In the early game or even midgame if you haven't been able to pump up the Akkan levels, your fleets probably aren't big enough to really make this matter.

4) Some people will defend Armistice by saying "one time they did something". I'm sorry, Armistice is the stupidest ability I've ever heard of and I thought it was stupid in SOASE 1 too. You will find a use for it maybe one time in ten dozen games. It's mostly used for running away and losing. Who the hell wants an ability to help them lose? The only other real use is stalling an enemy fleet in a system with an inhibitor. How often does that happen? You have to not only have the Akkan in the right place and the right time, but you also need the ability, and you have to just plain have a reason to do it. The only other tactic I can imagine for it is skirting around a line of defenses to the opposite side of a planet. Again, this is ridiculously situational.

5) The Trade Port is... well, it exists. Yes, it can be a big economic boost. And yet, this is a capital ship feature that is gated behind the tech tree. Oh my god, really? It literally does nothing on its own, minor faction trade ports aside. And while it can be a good boost, it may or may not really be needed, and in my opinion, it's entirely up for debate if it's worth a capital ship slot and level investment for it. I don't think it is.

6) Ion Bolt. Oh right, literally the only reason to use the Akkan in SOASE 1 was removed and functionally given to the Marza, which basically was already good enough without it.

7) Akkan start will slow your early game so much that you'll die.

8) Akkan start for the AI is so difficult to hard to use that they'll die.

9) It's the only ship that requires incessant micromanagement to get it to use its weapons to their fullest.

10) Although the Insipiring Broadcast suggests the Akkan should be in the middle of the fleet, it literally brings nothing else to the fight. It has fewer point defenses than even a single Garda. This is just baffling.

The Akkan is just four Cobalts glued to half a Garda. And it can only bring half of its firepower to bear on any single target at once.

While there's always smartasses who will pretend everything is always the best and 'git gud', realistically the Akkan is by far the most worthless capital. You *can* live without it. The other TEC capitals all synergize with each other very well, while the Akkan would be missed the least if you were to skip it.

The Kol soaks damage and can dish out a ton to a single target. The Marza wipes fleets, and excels at taking down capital ships with its stun ability and missile damage. The Dunov brings a whole big mix of abilities including fighters and most importantly keeps the other ships healthy. The Sova protects everyone and brings a lot of fighters augmented with missile batteries. And the Akkan... gives them all a bit of buff that really could just be accomplished with items.

The Akkan just brings very little to the fight. It has exactly only one ability that's any use in battle. Two of them are accomplished by other ships and structures, and its special ability is the opposite of useful in battle. Yes, it has a use, but it's the most situational ability in the entire game.

In SOASE 1, the Akkan had the ion bolt, which actually made it very clutch in combat. But now the Marza has it, which makes the Marza even better than it was in SOASE 1 and it was pretty damn good then. And the Marza lost the radiation bomb because it was now given to everybody.

Thematically, the Akkan is supposed to be undergunned, it's practically a cruise liner converted into a warship. That's fine. But at the very least, it needs a ton of point defense

The reason is, the Akkan is supposed to be in the MIDDLE of your fleet to use Inspiring Broadcast. And what's the best place for a point defense cruiser? In the middle of the fleet.

Which capship has the PDs? The Sova. The Sova also has no abilities that aid other ships, and except for the deployment range of the missile battery, has no reason to 'be' in the middle of the action. However, the Sova has a million PD cannons and the missile battery deploys even more.

Realistically, as a carrier, the Sova should be away from the action. There's also mixed opinions on how useful the Sova really is - the factory buff doesn't help at all on the offensive, and the Corvette bay just builds little ships that later in the game are just popped like balloons.

Right now it's just weird that I'm driving my aircraft carrier directly into combat full-steam like it's an Indian container ship in the Baltimore Harbor, while my ship with the ability best-served in the middle of battle has literally nothing else to do once its there.

So I say strip several PDs from the Sova. This wouldn't be as bad as you think, because if you think it needs those to protect itself, that's what the missile battery's PDs are for. Give the Sova a couple of medium missile racks instead, so it can chill at the back edge and do what an aircraft carrier is supposed to do.

Then, slap a lot more PDs on the Akkan. At the very least, put one on that fin over the engine, and two on the bottom ridge, bringing it up to 5. At LEAST.

Because right now the 2x PDs on the Akkan is criminal.

[Slava Ukraini]

Armistice is great and can save your whole fleet in a critical situation.

And the two PD are also very useful, they shoot down many incoming missiles saving my ships. I use this great supportship a lot and like it very much the way it is.

Including the Colonization ability in early game. I just love it. A wonderful versatile ship allowing different tactics.

The Trade skill of the Akkan also works well. Just don't forget to create free expansion slots (Research/ Trade Ports/ Items) in order to be able to use the 2/4/6 extra trade boxes.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

Your right I did miss that, I read your post then did testing, when I came back to comment I forgot you wernt using inspire.
Thats my bad.

But youdid do it to prove that 30% increase firerate is 30% increase in firepower...
when even assuming its 100% accurate its only 20% max sustained.

Thats still a difference of 6% dps between expected and realized.
Which is equal to the first weapon upgrades in the research tree.
Thats also only for the medium autocannon which is ~10% of its fire rate cant be improved and its dps is ~10% less then infocard claims.

there is a 30% difference for PD where 30% of its fire rate cant be improved.
20-30% or so between missile launchers.
Thats not minor no matter what you want to claim.

You are also being disingenuous
You constantly mention level 3 inspire in regards to the Akkan not being crap.
When everyone is talking about it being a starter ship.
From the very start you moved the goal posts to suit your argument.

Inspire is what you get last, you get colonzation and Trade before inspire.

I put a level 1 marza vs a Akkan with level 3 inspire and early fleet... and its STILL CRAP
This was the Marza at the disadvantage.
Tell me what someone can do to make it at even a larger disadvantage?
Marza no support
Akkan with a full early fleet

disingenuous to the extreme.

I gave both unupgraded and upgraded and then actual missile upgrade dps
No autoloader for the Akkan?
Why don't you state how much extra DPS the Akkan gets from 40% sustained DPS increase compared to total fleet DPS or the Marza total DPS...

Tell me what fraction of a single percent is that of the total Marza DPS.

Building an autoloader for the Akkan instead of extra ships is dumb.
You get more DPS building 2 extra cobalts...
So yes the autoloader is a DUMB investment for the Akkan...


I didn't even go into POP... which is relevant...
Because once you start limiting total ships to pop... Akkan loses yet again.
Akkan in terms of TOTAL DPS from all sources(its own or enhancing other ships) for its population
IS LESS then the Marza/Sova/Dunov/Kol with upgrades.
A single Dunov EMP is far more effective in terms of "DPS" then Inspire is on a fleet, its also upfront and so allows faster killing which is far more important then sustained DPS.
Burst DPS wins the game by taking out units faster which reduces the enemy total DPS.

I used the Marza as an example...
Could use the Sova... Sova rush with corvette can destroy a Akkan build too, Corvettes focus on destroying builders across the Akkan players worlds, Sova Focus on destroying factories or Akkan.
Tried it not just talking about it, it works on your chosen map.

You say I wasnt fair?
Show me the math where I wasnt fair...
Lets talk fair...
The cost difference between a Marza and a Akkan+Fleet to defeat the Marza early game lets the Marza player build up to 2 more capital ships... depending on exotic RNG.
Realisticly just 1 due to slightly reduced income due to slower colonization.



3 times with a Sova I could colonize all worlds in under 20 mins
but it took you 23+
So yes
You didnt do it right.. you also went a build that makes no sense.
Pointing this out hurt your feelings, well too bad.
The Sova like all carriers can also bug out and not all squadrons can deploy and you need to manually tell it to launch after entering a gravity well to overcome this.
So sorry mentioning this bug to you got you salty.

Yes the Akkan trade ability is broken...
Or are you suggesting being able to have 3x the income of other players on some larger maps(rush trade/get derelicts to level Akkan rade to 3)
is fair?

Only another TEC player who can also go this build can call it fair, neither Vasari or Advent have a method to get such insane income levels 5-10 mins into game. While they can close the gap over time the massive income advantage is effectively an autowin for TEC.

If something is required META then its not balanced.
Other builds cant complete.


Lastly
The Akkan has gotten weaker as patches fixed PD and then capital ships had their missiles hp increased to make them stay effective.
Doubling the PD would actually bring it back to its effectively equal to its on release PD ability against capital ship missiles.



PS-I think this convo is over since it devolved into insults.

Publicado originalmente por Nightskies:

@Happy: I'm here to discern the truth. I read your points, found some merit in it, but doubted it (like so many things). I played around with it again. I tested it. I found your assessment incorrect. As such, I'm pushing back because the Akkan is good at what it does, and what it does is good, and is not limited to a single playstyle. Its a unique capital ship that doesn't deserve to have its role nerfed into being more similar to the other capitals. Let it be; don't fix what isn't broken.

"You said the DPS in game is accurate, its NOT which is what I proved.
You compared already faulty DPS with further faulty DPS.
With the incorrect bonus...
Autocannon DPS on a ship is already actually ~20% less then listed."

The infocards are irrelevant to the data, though. I used no infocard numbers for the test or its conclusion, though noting that the infocard's increase in DPS is accurate... hmm, well, I didn't say that clearly, I suppose. So, to clarify: the increase in the infocard's DPS is correct, with rounding.

"Inspire is 30% btw at level 3 not 35%...
So your numbers are weirdly WRONG..."

You missed explained details: "With the Akkan, achieving a consistent reload bonus through the Rapid Autoloader and Savage Thrill." I didn't use Inspiring Broadcast at all for that, this was just to do a surefire test of Reload Rate.

I did this in order to get a large enough sample while using the in-game timer. A 5 minute sample is good enough- and the test has to be consistent, and I assured that this happened by using a static Reload Rate, which isn't possible with Inspiring Broadcast without a 40% cooldown reduction.

Mind you, this is an observed study. I assure that the Akkan specifically fired 100 times in 430 seconds with no Reload Rate and 100 times in 323 seconds with -35% Reload Rate, which is a +33% DPS increase. This is irrefutable, lest you can gather some actual data based on actual game performance that conflicts or can demonstrate that the data is erroneous, not by presenting more theory-crafting based on limited datamining.

I did not mention all details. The Akkan's level is 7. Based on the data, the level 7 Akkan's autocannons have an actual rate of fire of 0.23 volleys/sec, or 4.3 seconds per volley (gathered from actual performance in a controlled environment). As earlier stated, other TEC ships have similar ratios of reload time to fire time, including the Javelis (which is 12 reload time, 1 fire time, closer to the Akkan level 1's 5 second reload and 0.6 fire time). It did not level up through the test.

I also gathered a lot more data than that, which I can share if you're interested, that suggests how much fire time matters at various Reload Rates. However, because those sample sizes are limited to 30 to 60 seconds, the uncertainty value is too big to get a fine enough measure to clearly show the effect of fire time. Its moot though; the 100 sample size is conclusive.

To be clear: I have already admitted you were right about fire rate meaning that the infocard isn't displaying the correct DPS, but the effect is almost marginal- and Weapon Reload practically does mean an equivalent increase in DPS. Good enough for human perception, especially since all non-single shot weapons are similar in this regard. That's because all cooldowns are much larger than fire time.

At this point, I go beyond the scope of the thread. I've proven that the Weapon Reload is fairly representative of a direct and proportional increase in DPS. The following is thus irrelevant to the Akkan discussion, only pertaining to understanding the DPS and the infocard's small disparity.

Publicado originalmente por More infocard bashing:

At level 7 with only +5% damage from research, the Akkan does 11.8 DPS per autocannon according to the infocard. It actually hits an Autocannon Defense Platform's armor for 5 damage per hit, and 10 with 2 hits (fractions are tracked but not shown). With 150 pierce against 600 durability and 100 Armor Strength, this is the expected damage with 45 base damage per hit (so the Akkan's damage does not scale with level). Deriving what the rate of fire is according to the infocard, the level 7 Akkan should have a 4 second RoF. But it is actually 4.3 second RoF. A +7% difference. For the Javelis, the disparity is closer to +8% with a 13 sec RoF instead of 12.

There is a curiosity in that. For the Javelis and other ships tested, difference is cleanly matching the 'burst_pattern'. The shown DPS is simply (damage / cooldown), when it should be (damge / (dooldown+"burst_pattern")). But the difference between actual performance and the infocard for the Akkan level 7 is only half the "burst_pattern", or the fire time. However, calculating the effect of Weapon Reload is nonetheless consistent by considering the fire time as 0.6, as shown in the previous post- the numbers add up.

Which is convincing enough for me to conclude that fire time does matter, even if its small. That doesn't explain why the Akkan's infocard doesn't match the behavior of other ships, though.

So, I set out to discover what's missing - I wanted to know why its suggesting the cooldown is 4 seconds instead of 3.6 seconds- because the truth might be that fire time is inconsistent, or there's something else at play that we haven't accounted for yet.

If the "trader_colony_capital_ship" file is to believed, a level 7 Akkan has a 0.06 "damage" modifier under "scalar_values". But that doesn't add up: a 6% damage increase, on top of the 5% from research, would do 6 damage to the Autocannon Defense Platform's armor- or at least 11 in 2 hits (the game displays rounded numbers, but tracks decimals). But it only does 5 damage. Even if had 6% more damage, that still yields a derived RoF of 4.04 seconds. So I don't think the Akkan's damage scales with level.

So, why, then, is the infocard's derived cooldown 4 seconds, when it should indicate 3.6? Might it be that capital ships have a faster fire time? It seems not, and the numbers don't add up for that. Might it be that we don't actually know the damage formula against armor, or that fractions against armor are simply negated and rounded down? Or is the infocard simply using outdated numbers or is using orphaned variables or dead code that didn't make it to actual capital ship levels? I don't know. Its beyond the scope, but I want to know.

"Lets compare a Level 1 Marza..."

...Nah. It isn't even relevant, IMO. I'm confident its not even capable of doing that except on the smallest maps with only 3 gravity wells between capitals (like Power Struggle), or if the player doesn't use counters (or does too little too late). Even if it could counter an Akkan by rushing, that would be irrelevant to the discussion of how effective the Akkan is.

Also, you're showing the Marza at its best against an Akkan without the support it should have. Show the numbers with the Akkan and its fleet at its best and the Marza at its worst, if you want to prove the Marza can do it. And ... you're relying on missiles...

At this point, I'd rather put the ships on the field instead of continuing on with this 'my daddy capital ship can beat up your daddy capital ship'.

"As for Akkans trade ablity, its too powerful on large maps where you can't get rushed...
The Akkan is extremely imbalanced and goes between SHOULDNT BUILD to MUST BUILD depending on map size."

So what you're saying is, on a map where its a good idea to eco, the eco ship's eco ability is really good? But you don't like that, because you don't like the Akkan?

Maybe... don't play eco?

*Oh.

Also, THANK YOU for editing in the OP:

"While there's always smartasses who will pretend everything is always the best and 'git gud'"

and also being the one to say 'you're not playing the Sova right'. Double standard much?

[DM|Hachbubuch]

Publicado originalmente por HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

As for Akkans trade ablity, its too powerful on large maps where you can't get rushed...
The Akkan is extremely imbalanced and goes between SHOULDNT BUILD to MUST BUILD depending on map size.

So, the problem is the choice between Akkan and the other CPs is too obvious then? On large maps take Akkan, on others take Kol/Marza/Sova? Well, yeah, but I don't think this is much of a problem.

[Slava Ukraini]

Oh oh you guys do so many numbers and math, this gives me a headache. I am not that good in numbers and calculating. I am just enjoying the game, the aestetics relaxing my mind. Well humans are different. This is ok.

For me personally, DPS is not everything. Also the variaty of situations how I can use a ship. I use my imagination and creativity instead of only placing two ships or fleets to fight each other and let the higher DPS win.

My own experience with my Akkan is just nice. I always use the Akkan as my first ship together with nine cobalt and do very well.

[DM|Hachbubuch]

Publicado originalmente por HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

Yes the Akkan trade ability is broken...
Or are you suggesting being able to have 3x the income of other players on some larger maps(rush trade/get derelicts to level Akkan rade to 3)
is fair?

Only another TEC player who can also go this build can call it fair, neither Vasari or Advent have a method to get such insane income levels 5-10 mins into game. While they can close the gap over time the massive income advantage is effectively an autowin for TEC.

If something is required META then its not balanced.
Other builds cant complete.

Vasari can close the gap by massing Tosuraks fast enough, and later by lvl6 Evacuator ability. Advent have tough times with their eco, but I think the Progenitor's resurrection ability makes constant fighting economically equal for Advent and TEC, as Advent does not take permanent losses. Also I've used to fast-colonise as Advent with the Rapture until devs nerfed Malice for the perfect combination of early eco and midgame combat efficiency.

So, I would not say Akkan makes TEC too economically superior on larger maps.

[Malloc]

Publicado originalmente por DM|Hachbubuch:

So, I would not say Akkan makes TEC too economically superior on larger maps.

Plus, it's superiority lasts only until your Trade lvl3 Akkan is dead, and you have to level up another one.
Or keep it out of harm's way, thus under utilizing spent supply. That's ecoboosting Akkan's risk\reward mechanic in a nutshell.

[Nightskies]

No insults from me, Happy. The only insult in my response was a quote of you that you edited into the OP. And you talk about disingenuous...

My only real point in the last response is that the test was accurate. Just because we disagree on the numbers doesn't mean I'm being disingenuous. I'm striving to be as accurate as possible and transparent.

I still have no further interest in discussing beating the Akkan in a rush.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

You quoted the OP insult to me...
Thinking you were smart
Since you still have not realized, please look at the name of the OP...
We are not the same person, further I disagree with them wanting the Akkan to be massively buffed.
I think squadrons at Dunlov level +few more PD is all it needs.

Publicado originalmente por Nightskies:

No insults from me, Happy. The only insult in my response was a quote of you that you edited into the OP. And you talk about disingenuous...

My only real point in the last response is that the test was accurate. Just because we disagree on the numbers doesn't mean I'm being disingenuous. I'm striving to be as accurate as possible and transparent.

I still have no further interest in discussing beating the Akkan in a rush.

[Nightskies]

My word! Apologies, you are indeed not the same person! Well.... oops! Guess we both didn't quite read right :3

[Kinowek]

I agree the Akkan can use a firepower buff in SoaSE 2, but don't ask them to nerf the Sova to... make the Akkan seem better, lol.

I don't have enough playtime in SoaSE2 to strongly suggest specific number changes, but it certainly feels underwhelming to go Akkan as your first capital ship, at the moment.

[Raistlin_Twin]

I used to go akkan to start but its so much slower to expand than if i go with most any other capital ship + colony ship to start. Its nice to have mid-late game just so you don't have to worry about losing a flimsy little colony ship constantly. The broadside attack AI is really annoying

[Lywelyn]

i agree with OP as old as the thread is, to this day Akkan is and will remain a blueprint.

i did deployed one when i tried out the first few game session i had and then realised literally any other ship has better use than it, hell, even Dunov is a more interesting choice... ok maybe not Dunov, but Marza, Sova and Kol are a straight up better option along with a coloniser, and as stated prior, inspiring broadcast has its limit and require to be leveled up in order to start making a difference, by the time it get worth you get your titan, and both Loyal/Rebel TEC have better use of their titan that broadcast

[APhoenixSoaring]

Yeah they savaged the Akkan...

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

Dunov is actually a powerful warship, its slightly better then a Kol but a little less DPS then the Sova... but thats discounting the EMP...

Get squadron upgrade+ missile gudiance and Flak(1 missile gudiance per 7 flak)+Targeting link.
Leaves you 1 upgrade of your choice ontop.

IT does have the issue its missiles can get intercepted rather easy, but once you get armored missile research, Pure Dunovs downright stupid.

Regen shields
Emp Shields
Slow(kite)

Only thing that can touch you is missile bomber barrages and you can use Flak to counter that.


Also... Akkan got nerffed by the changes...

Publicado originalmente por Lywelyn:

i agree with OP as old as the thread is, to this day Akkan is and will remain a blueprint.

i did deployed one when i tried out the first few game session i had and then realised literally any other ship has better use than it, hell, even Dunov is a more interesting choice... ok maybe not Dunov, but Marza, Sova and Kol are a straight up better option along with a coloniser, and as stated prior, inspiring broadcast has its limit and require to be leveled up in order to start making a difference, by the time it get worth you get your titan, and both Loyal/Rebel TEC have better use of their titan that broadcast

[Nightskies]

The nerfs are stronger than they might seem, especially with the aforementioned strategy.