Defense Improvements

[Gorwe]

Simply giving them more HP or making them cheaper isn't the way to go. With that said, we have to ask ourselves few questions:

1. What is the purpose of defense?
2. Does it give you that purpose?
3. What are the categories of defense?
4. Do defense structures do their job as intended?

So, let's go one by one.

1. The purpose of defense should be to slow the enemy down and give you more options as to how to respond, what to do, how to win etc. They shouldn't make you invincible(well, perhaps with the exception of TEC:E), but give a nice strategical layer and option.

2. Yes, the defense does give you that option and you don't need to go further than TEC:E to witness how that impacts the entire gameplay. You simply must find other venues of attack or you're hitting Angel's Gates. Yeah, not going through those. It even helps with slowing down of massive fleets.

3. Defence categories / layers are as such: Light Turret(Autocannon, Laser, Phase Gun), Heavy Turret(Gauss Cannon, Beam, Phase Missile), Hangar, Support(Retrofit, Renewal, Regeneration) and Starbase(Argonev, Trascenscia, Orkulus). Let's define what each category's job is.

LIGHT: It is here to help you combat smaller, massed units. It achieves this by having faster attack rate tuned so it could deter Corvettes, Frigates etc. It don't really serve any other purpose.

HEAVY: It is here to help you combat bigger units that aren't present in bigger numbers(well, up to a point). Its primary target is the Capital Ship, but it can also help vs (Heavy) Cruisers and such. It has higher range, higher penetration and higher damage than LT, but attacks slower.

HANGAR: It is obvious, it is here to provide strikecraft support.

SUPPORT: It here mostly to heal other buildings. If main turrets are your Tanks, these are your Supports / Healers. Pretty self evident.

STARBASE: The lynchpin, the keystone of your defense. It combines damage, damage apsorbtion, hangars, support and more into one building. Used properly, it is a rock that the enemy waves are gonna crash upon while giving you noncombat benefits(or even offensive ones, if Vasari).

4. This is where I am going to evaluate whether these buildings do their job and what could be done to make them better at their job.

LIGHT: They flatout do not do their job as needed and are mostly a waste of space and resources. In theory, they do their job, but in practice, there is always something that inteferes with that job. Be it capitals or strikecraft or missiles or support etc. They are also supposed to be your frontline. So, we could make them tougher, we could make them cheaper, we could increase their attack damage / speed, give them AoE or give them PD. Or even make them be built in pairs. Of these, I am the biggest fan of giving them PD while making them tougher. That's a good start and then, if needed, continue from there.

Giving them PD would make them more universal(make it useful vs strikecraft and missiles) and giving them more HP(etc) would make them a better frontline structure. Making them an anchor of your defense.

HEAVY: They mostly function just fine. One could even say they function more than fine, given that you don't build the Light category, so this one ends up doing overtime. There are few issues though: RANGE(in general) and Missile(in case of Vasari). I would really increase their Range, nothing else. In case of Vasari, man I do not know. These often do not their job at all(courtesy of missile mech). I would personally replace them with those Orange Beams.

HANGAR: They give both offensive and defensive support, help with most things and, overall, if not outgunned 10:1, do their job just fine.

SUPPORT: Retrofit and Renewal(combined with Light Factory) do their job more than fine. It's just Regen Bay which I am not a big fan of. I would simply increase the amount it heals.

STARBASES: Function more than fine. They just need BIGGER RANGE. Nothing else. Their current range is like lol, haha!

///

So, how does the current defensive line up look?

Heavy(main) + Support = FRONT ; + Hangar = LONG RANGE + STARBASE

How would it look like with these suggestions?

Light(main) + Support = FRONT ; Heavy + Hangar = LONG RANGE ; + STARBASE

///

What do you think?

[Mander]

Good thoughts.
Personally, after some soul searching, I think that a way to improve defensive slots is something that should be done with a scalpel, instead of a hammer: in short, massive buffs to one category or the other (starbases not included here) wouldn’t really improve on orbitals defenses, simply switching the “meta” around.
I believe, being orbital defenses a closed system (until a relief arrives in the form of titan/fleets), that they should work in a more synergistic and interlocked way, further augmented by research.
For example, PD capabilities: you’re proposing to put them on light defensive option. I would suggest putting them instead on Repair platforms/retrofit stations/antimatter stations: and not a score of PD, but a lot. This way, the supportive options become even more useful in keeping the rest of the orbital structure alive. And if you want to snipe them out before focusing fire on more DPS oriented option, you’ve to get closer, in range of cannons and missile batteries.

The distinction between heavy/light defensive structure is, I fear, irrelevant for now, when they are so easily removed from the game: I would like to see for example something like the “Aura” option from SOASE I for the ADVENT. In short, the closer they are together, the better they perform (i.e. fire rate for TEC, shield regen for ADVENT, further hull regen granted for Vasari and so on: to each their flavor). I agree utterly tho, that they need more range and higher ROF to be of any use. Also, they could benefit from stronger hulls OR repair platforms could improve how much they repair per second.
The same can be said for hangars: switching off enemy bombers in one way or the other (or greatly impede them) would be a massive boon to their use, while also “forcing” players to give a thought on how their defenses are laid out.

TL;DR: Each defensive option, I believe, should be working together for better shielding the whole gravity well and each other defensive structures.

Finally, Starbases: I believe they should have faster modules construction for starter, also because of the need of exotics that add on waiting time before their completion. OR, especially for TECE, the ability to build multiple modules at the same time (unlocked from research maybe?).
Should stronger and more synergistic options for orbital defenses be implemented, I would agree that Starbases don’t need much else (maybe just a little fine tuning on global DPS). Otherwise, massive buffs to them are I believe mandatory to make them perform properly as “fleets stallers”.

[Vandom]

I've put a lot more focus into defences with the test patch, so I'll share my thoughts.
The notes say they did something to structure durability, but don't say what it was.

Hangars: Advent hangars are in a good place. They can make enough fighters to contest Strike Craft with a bit of help from Starbase PD. TEC hangars fall a bit short, not quite able to provide enough PD and fighters to fill that role.
Vasari have none, and are in need for some PD to counter strike craft.

Support: Regen Bay trades healing power for efficiency because Vasari don't have a way to give antimatter. I think the structure is good, but another source of regeneration should be available short of a Skirantra. If the Overseer got a healing or armor buff ability back, this role could be filled with an underperforming unit. A planet item that gives structures armor regeneration could do the same.

Light/heavy turrets: This is where opinions differ. I think light turrets are in a great spot, giving excellent value for the stats and cost. Heavy turrets really suffer from taking two slots, and I think is too similar and competes with light turrets.

Both turrets have a range issue, heavy turrets less so.

I agree that the roles should be a bit better defined, so my own changes would be:
Increase both turrets range a bit.
Slight increase in heavy turret damage and cost to make them worth 2 slots.
Reduce heavy turret tracking.
I agree Vasari missiles need to be a beam.

PD: I agree that PD is lacking. A small amount of light PD on light turrets would take the sting out of missiles, and encourage overlapping defences. Vasari especially need this, and could use some heavier PD on their other structures as well.

Starbases: I personally think they are in a good spot in the test patch. I would be hesitant to make their range any longer than light and heavy turrets.

I think that Mander is right that any changes should be small and careful. Despite what many believe, defences are nearly in a good spot, and it is better they underperform a bit to discourage turtling.

[Mander]

Originally posted by Vandom:

I think that Mander is right that any changes should be small and careful. Despite what many believe, defences are nearly in a good spot, and it is better they underperform a bit to discourage turtling.

"Problem" is, at least one faction is turtling oriented (TECE and maybe Reborn). Imo, until competitive defensive tools aren’t given to all factions across the board, ships spam will continue to win the day. And will continue to weight down your games in medium sized/ huge maps where you have multiple fronts open, and where you would like/need starbases to be able to hold a gravity well.
In short, a more boring and less skillful approach to what we had in SOASE I.

[Jambie Lionheart]

It's because we need a defensive turret or weapons platform structure that can stand upto multiple cap ships. Currently there are none. 4 human controlled capital ships of any kind can obliterate a full military slots (20-30 slots) worth of static turret defences alone and that's with a repair orbital or two as well.

Starbases do ok until there's a handful of mid-range capital ships. Starbases can't stand upto the abilities of capital ships very well. I think a big problem is that AI doesn't seem to like upgrading their own starbases. The main issue with them is that while they do very well with early to mid game attacks, in late game they get folded.

I think either we need a researchable cap ship killer turret or all turrets need added, researchable abilities and items that can counter that of capital ships and or maybe a mid-game researchable type of duel turret that has slightly more range, takes up 3 M-slots and combines a heavy turret with a light turret plus two pd turrets so that old turrets can then be replaced by newer models that can stand upto the late game stages and properly support a starbase (which, lets be clear, they do not do at all right now.

[Enkiduo]

Turrets feel well tuned for early game fights, but even by mid-game they are pretty useless, they do good DPS, esp heavy against solo capitals, but TTK against them is fast and you just can't build that many. Like a 20 defense asteroid setup, however you structure it against a 500 supply fleet, isgoing to get destroyed rapidly without doing much of anything, why both?

You put in a starbase (which is generally well tuned) and defense becomes viable again but the turrets don't synergize with the starbase well as stated above, lack of range and PD is major issue, and they just tend to die rapidly without doing much.

I don't find myself considering or worrying about enemy defenses without a starbase by midgame, or even with a starbase late game. I never build super heavy's to counter them, even starbases.

I'd look at adding researches, maybe tier 3 military, that dramatically increase the lifespan of turrets (start with 2X) and gives them a synergizing element.

Healing each other would be very nice, sharing damage amongst each other, stacking range aura, something like the advent carrier pushback PD effect for vasari would be great. TEC could auto rebuild them if destroyed.

[Gorwe]

In short, I see that a lot of you want a structure / turret / defense oriented tech tree back. This is understandable. Don't kniw why it got removed.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

heavy turrets are actually fantastic against actual heavy ships... anything with durability 400+... problem is that is generally only capitals and anti starbase ship.
Leading to limited usefulness but 6 or so are enough to quickly take out a capital ship or force it to retreat.

But they are in a weird place because they only effective DPS wise against a few select ships.
I think special abilities should be brought back for platforms..

Platforms are generally good as they are(but too expensive) and quickly overrun.
Adding special ability to platforms would help but I think not be to over the top if they keep the current price.

Special ability.
Each race gets a version of platform ability:
Omega Protocol
Facing certain defeat, weapons are overcharged, greatly increasing output but causing systems to quickly overload.
+50% damage/range/firerate for 60 seconds, takes 2% of its shields/health/armor as damage per second(cant kill itself), goes offline for 180 seconds after ability ends or it reaches 10%hp.
Ability will only last ~45 seconds if the platform gets no healing and is at full health, if it takes damage the ability will end sooner.

3 minutes recovery is not minor, neither is needing to repair them.
You generally will only want to use it when you know they can't hold back the enemy fleet, but you want to inflict losses.

In the Betapatch, starbases do appear to be more tanky but I cant say they 100% are, they just appear to be performing better against lower pierce targets. Or maybe its that bombers got a 33% dps nerf.

Originally posted by Vandom:

I've put a lot more focus into defences with the test patch, so I'll share my thoughts.
The notes say they did something to structure durability, but don't say what it was.

Hangars: Advent hangars are in a good place. They can make enough fighters to contest Strike Craft with a bit of help from Starbase PD. TEC hangars fall a bit short, not quite able to provide enough PD and fighters to fill that role.
Vasari have none, and are in need for some PD to counter strike craft.

Support: Regen Bay trades healing power for efficiency because Vasari don't have a way to give antimatter. I think the structure is good, but another source of regeneration should be available short of a Skirantra. If the Overseer got a healing or armor buff ability back, this role could be filled with an underperforming unit. A planet item that gives structures armor regeneration could do the same.

Light/heavy turrets: This is where opinions differ. I think light turrets are in a great spot, giving excellent value for the stats and cost. Heavy turrets really suffer from taking two slots, and I think is too similar and competes with light turrets.

Both turrets have a range issue, heavy turrets less so.

I agree that the roles should be a bit better defined, so my own changes would be:
Increase both turrets range a bit.
Slight increase in heavy turret damage and cost to make them worth 2 slots.
Reduce heavy turret tracking.
I agree Vasari missiles need to be a beam.

PD: I agree that PD is lacking. A small amount of light PD on light turrets would take the sting out of missiles, and encourage overlapping defences. Vasari especially need this, and could use some heavier PD on their other structures as well.

Starbases: I personally think they are in a good spot in the test patch. I would be hesitant to make their range any longer than light and heavy turrets.

I think that Mander is right that any changes should be small and careful. Despite what many believe, defences are nearly in a good spot, and it is better they underperform a bit to discourage turtling.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

heavy turrets are actually fantastic against actual heavy ships... anything with durability 400+... problem is that is generally only capitals and anti starbase ship.
Leading to limited usefulness but 6 or so are enough to quickly take out a capital ship or force it to retreat.

But they are in a weird place because they only effective DPS wise against a few select ships.
I think special abilities should be brought back for platforms..

Platforms are generally good as they are(but too expensive) and quickly overrun.
Adding special ability to platforms would help but I think not be to over the top if they keep the current price.

Special ability.
Each race gets a version of platform ability:
Omega Protocol
Facing certain defeat, weapons are overcharged, greatly increasing output but causing systems to quickly overload.
+50% damage/range/firerate for 60 seconds, takes 2% of its shields/health/armor as damage per second(cant kill itself), goes offline for 180 seconds after ability ends or it reaches 10%hp.
Ability will only last ~45 seconds if the platform gets no healing and is at full health, if it takes damage the ability will end sooner.

3 minutes recovery is not minor, neither is needing to repair them.
You generally will only want to use it when you know they can't hold back the enemy fleet, but you want to inflict losses.

In the Betapatch, starbases do appear to be more tanky but I cant say they 100% are, they just appear to be performing better against lower pierce targets. Or maybe its that bombers got a 33% dps nerf.

Originally posted by Vandom:

I've put a lot more focus into defences with the test patch, so I'll share my thoughts.
The notes say they did something to structure durability, but don't say what it was.

Hangars: Advent hangars are in a good place. They can make enough fighters to contest Strike Craft with a bit of help from Starbase PD. TEC hangars fall a bit short, not quite able to provide enough PD and fighters to fill that role.
Vasari have none, and are in need for some PD to counter strike craft.

Support: Regen Bay trades healing power for efficiency because Vasari don't have a way to give antimatter. I think the structure is good, but another source of regeneration should be available short of a Skirantra. If the Overseer got a healing or armor buff ability back, this role could be filled with an underperforming unit. A planet item that gives structures armor regeneration could do the same.

Light/heavy turrets: This is where opinions differ. I think light turrets are in a great spot, giving excellent value for the stats and cost. Heavy turrets really suffer from taking two slots, and I think is too similar and competes with light turrets.

Both turrets have a range issue, heavy turrets less so.

I agree that the roles should be a bit better defined, so my own changes would be:
Increase both turrets range a bit.
Slight increase in heavy turret damage and cost to make them worth 2 slots.
Reduce heavy turret tracking.
I agree Vasari missiles need to be a beam.

PD: I agree that PD is lacking. A small amount of light PD on light turrets would take the sting out of missiles, and encourage overlapping defences. Vasari especially need this, and could use some heavier PD on their other structures as well.

Starbases: I personally think they are in a good spot in the test patch. I would be hesitant to make their range any longer than light and heavy turrets.

I think that Mander is right that any changes should be small and careful. Despite what many believe, defences are nearly in a good spot, and it is better they underperform a bit to discourage turtling.

Heavy Turrets are actually quite fantastic because they handle the real problems. If they had extra range, you would 100% be aware of that fact.

The current biggest problems of defense is the lack of PD. Without that, all manner of things easily overwhelm them. Strikecraft, Missiles etc. Just the presence of PD(and several other small changes) would be enough for a start.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

Problem with PD on everything is it just punishes players that try to build a mixed fleet, it will render mixed fleet fighter/bombers null.

Maybe we need proper PD platforms.

4 PD and 2 light guns(for anti corvette 50 pierce since current light platforms dont deal with them to well either).
1 logistic slot.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

heavy turrets are actually fantastic against actual heavy ships... anything with durability 400+... problem is that is generally only capitals and anti starbase ship.
Leading to limited usefulness but 6 or so are enough to quickly take out a capital ship or force it to retreat.

But they are in a weird place because they only effective DPS wise against a few select ships.
I think special abilities should be brought back for platforms..

Platforms are generally good as they are(but too expensive) and quickly overrun.
Adding special ability to platforms would help but I think not be to over the top if they keep the current price.

Special ability.
Each race gets a version of platform ability:
Omega Protocol
Facing certain defeat, weapons are overcharged, greatly increasing output but causing systems to quickly overload.
+50% damage/range/firerate for 60 seconds, takes 2% of its shields/health/armor as damage per second(cant kill itself), goes offline for 180 seconds after ability ends or it reaches 10%hp.
Ability will only last ~45 seconds if the platform gets no healing and is at full health, if it takes damage the ability will end sooner.

3 minutes recovery is not minor, neither is needing to repair them.
You generally will only want to use it when you know they can't hold back the enemy fleet, but you want to inflict losses.

In the Betapatch, starbases do appear to be more tanky but I cant say they 100% are, they just appear to be performing better against lower pierce targets. Or maybe its that bombers got a 33% dps nerf.

Heavy Turrets are actually quite fantastic because they handle the real problems. If they had extra range, you would 100% be aware of that fact.

The current biggest problems of defense is the lack of PD. Without that, all manner of things easily overwhelm them. Strikecraft, Missiles etc. Just the presence of PD(and several other small changes) would be enough for a start.

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

Problem with PD on everything is it just punishes players that try to build a mixed fleet, it will render mixed fleet fighter/bombers null.

Maybe we need proper PD platforms.

4 PD and 2 light guns(for anti corvette 50 pierce since current light platforms dont deal with them to well either).
1 logistic slot.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Heavy Turrets are actually quite fantastic because they handle the real problems. If they had extra range, you would 100% be aware of that fact.

The current biggest problems of defense is the lack of PD. Without that, all manner of things easily overwhelm them. Strikecraft, Missiles etc. Just the presence of PD(and several other small changes) would be enough for a start.

I wouldn't put it on everything, just on Light Turrets, to mske them more appealing.

But the idea of a PD Turret did cross my mind. Ofc it has. But I thought of it as too niche. What I am always trying to do is fixin things. Not "makin new things".

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

Light platforms are already the better option over heavy because of almost equal health but 1 vs 2 logistics slots=more health which=more damage before death.

It would be further making the light platforms the only real choice.


If added to platforms, it should be heavy.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

Problem with PD on everything is it just punishes players that try to build a mixed fleet, it will render mixed fleet fighter/bombers null.

Maybe we need proper PD platforms.

4 PD and 2 light guns(for anti corvette 50 pierce since current light platforms dont deal with them to well either).
1 logistic slot.

I wouldn't put it on everything, just on Light Turrets, to mske them more appealing.

But the idea of a PD Turret did cross my mind. Ofc it has. But I thought of it as too niche. What I am always trying to do is fixin things. Not "makin new things".

[Gorwe]

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

Light platforms are already the better option over heavy because of almost equal health but 1 vs 2 logistics slots=more health which=more damage before death.

It would be further making the light platforms the only real choice.


If added to platforms, it should be heavy.

Originally posted by Gorwe:

I wouldn't put it on everything, just on Light Turrets, to mske them more appealing.

But the idea of a PD Turret did cross my mind. Ofc it has. But I thought of it as too niche. What I am always trying to do is fixin things. Not "makin new things".

Yeah, sorry, idk about slot usage. I tried it in vanilla and, uh, I didn't like it. So, I found a mod(it's only the second most popular mod on mod.io so ... perhaps devs should pay attention). Am happy with it.

In the base game that changes things and makes the spam even worse.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

Problem with PD on everything is it just punishes players that try to build a mixed fleet, it will render mixed fleet fighter/bombers null.

Maybe we need proper PD platforms.

4 PD and 2 light guns(for anti corvette 50 pierce since current light platforms dont deal with them to well either).
1 logistic slot.

I wouldn't put it on everything, just on Light Turrets, to mske them more appealing.

But the idea of a PD Turret did cross my mind. Ofc it has. But I thought of it as too niche. What I am always trying to do is fixin things. Not "makin new things".

Putting PD on Light Turrets seems like a good "small change" that increases the overall power of defences without worrying about accidentally buffing them into the stratosphere. Even though I love tower defence in RTS's, its better for defences to be underpowered than overbuffed, so we don't end up in a Risk-style "turtle meta".

[Vandom]

Originally posted by Gorwe:

The current biggest problems of defense is the lack of PD. Without that, all manner of things easily overwhelm them. Strikecraft, Missiles etc. Just the presence of PD(and several other small changes) would be enough for a start.

I agree it is the biggest shortcoming of defences alongside range. It's hard to say how much PD to add, or how to do it. Putting them on the turrets makes sense for the defender, but for the attacker it invalidates low numbers of strike craft and missiles from their fleet.

I was thinking about this all day, and liked Manders idea to limit PD to support structures more than what I said earlier (pd on light turrets). Support structures give diminishing returns, so there is a good trade off for being able to negate more missiles/strike craft.

So for a recommended change to each faction.
TEC give the Hangar bay 4 PD turrets upgrade to their Repair structure as well.
Advent Temple of Renewal or Hangar get low damage PD, but not both.
Vasari get high damage PD to Regeneration bay.

[RaozSpaz]

PD is definitely the over arching problem of defenses. Though its definitely become less so at least versus AI. Players obviously can focus down healing platforms to neutralize their capability to extend defenses, but anyways. To topic.

Without some form of usable PD for each of the various factions, as stated by Vandom above me, defenses struggle hard against Missiles and Strike Craft. Hangar Bays for TEC have PD, but they are equipped like Gardas and are basically worthless. Giving them 360 fire would help tremendously. Furthermore giving PD to more things would also further help the various factions. Especially Vasari who presently have no counter versus strike craft.