The Defensor problem

[BloB]

So, as the title states.....we have a Defensor problem.

Defensors are supposed to be the Vasari solution to missiles and strike craft which they do a very good job of countering.

However, at the moment they are anti everything. They are cheap, fast to build and only have a 4 fleet supply. Why would a Vasari player build anything else when they can spam 500+ defensors and crush everything, at very little cost to themselves.

I don't want to see these corvettes nerfed to a useless level because they are essential to the Vasari fleet but something has to be done to give balance.

At the moment they have Light Pulse Gun x2 and PD Pulse Gun x2 with a 330 shield.

I think reducing the Light Pulse Gun to 1 would go along way to emphasizing their anti missile/strike craft role. I might even consider removing the shield.


Is there a better solution to this problem at the moment?

[Vandom]

They actually lose out to strike craft, and are terrible PD for cost. They really have 1 good role and that is early game spam rush.

I'd rather they replace both pulse guns with PD, and play a pure support role. Or just remove a dumb unit entirely.

[BloB]

Defensors melt stikecraft with ease if told to do so. This wasn't always the case but since the last patch and the fix to PD, it is.

Can't remove the unit or the Vasari has basically no PD whatsoever.

Am I the only one that thinks they're unbalanced in the current patch? Do you guys not see Vasari players with 300-500 Defensors every game, why do you think that is?

[RaozSpaz]

Originally posted by BloB:

Defensors melt stikecraft with ease if told to do so. This wasn't always the case but since the last patch and the fix to PD, it is.

Can't remove the unit or the Vasari has basically no PD whatsoever.

Am I the only one that thinks they're unbalanced in the current patch? Do you guys not see Vasari players with 300-500 Defensors every game, why do you think that is?

Nah. They melt basic contribution to Strikecraffts. Like the passive few that are summoned by a random capital ship or something like that. But if you're facing an AI for instance that has gone true strike craft spam, the Defensors dont kill strikecraft nearly fast enough. And unlike the Defensors, if the strike craft die they get rebuilt for free. They will win the attrition game.

[BloB]

OK I hear you guys, remove a Light Pulse Gun and replace it with an additional PD Pulse Gun? I think that's certainly worth a try on the next test branch.

I would say that I play advent in multiplayer mostly and tend to witness my strike craft disappear when fighting against Defensors fairly quickly.

[Fendelphi]

Their two light pulse guns have low DPS(I believe it starts at 3 DPS per gun) and low pierce(50). Essentially the same damage as 2 fighters(not squadrons, just 2 fighters). You get roughly the same amount of DPS from a Garda Mk2(which are also 4 Supplies per ship).
What is usually dealing damage, is the Tosurak Raiders that are mixed in(their Medium Pulse Gun has 600 Pierce as well as bonus damage vs buildings, and their phase missiles have a decent Pierce of 300).

Asuming that the Vasari bring almost nothing but Defensors, the standard defense platforms are fairly effective against them, due to the high Durability and good DPS, if you remember to focus fire.
Of course, you need a lot of them to make a dent in a swarm, but they definitely help.

Another thing that helps, is the Harcka, the Oppressor and either the Tempest or the Vigilis(or mix), and the Advent can also fairly reliably just focus on a lot of fighter wings to take them out.
I know some of the ships only become available fairly late, but if you are dealing with "500+" of them, you are at tier 4 research anyway.

And of course, various AoE abilities also help against swarms, either direct damage, damage over time or just debuffing them to minimize their damage output.
TEC and Advent have cheap ship items that deals AoE damage over time, which is fairly effective at draining the health of swarms of corvettes, while the Vasari starts with the Evacuator, which has a fairly effective AoE combo of its own.

[Vandom]

Originally posted by BloB:

Defensors melt stikecraft with ease if told to do so. This wasn't always the case but since the last patch and the fix to PD, it is.

Can't remove the unit or the Vasari has basically no PD whatsoever.

Am I the only one that thinks they're unbalanced in the current patch? Do you guys not see Vasari players with 300-500 Defensors every game, why do you think that is?

PD change was a buff to targeting against missile swarms, but their damage is so low that they don't really kill strike craft. The only PD now that does kill strike craft is capital ship carriers, since their PD damage per shot is higher.

Remember that Corvettes don't actually have that much health, and have less durability than strike craft weapons so they are taking full damage from the highest DPS ships. Strike craft past a certain threshold counter Defensors.

Vasari have PD from other units. Their cruisers have PD each, so it's just better to stop Defensor once you get to T3.

As I said before, Defensor are only good at early game rushing. Their weapons do enough damage to frigates and Corvettes to be a threat, while being hard to kill. They are a cost effective screen for Vasari cap ships. They are made in absurd numbers because they are the best early game spam unit, but after that are useless.

[BloB]

Im sorry guys but I have to ask, is your experience coming from games vs Ai or in multiplayer vs players?

There is a reason Vasari fleet composition these days comprise of 300+ defensors and a few cap ships and that is becasue they are effective against everything to some degree.....I'm sorry but that is the truth from multiplayer.

Your cap ships will not last long enough to fire 2 AoE ship items against these swarms and 1 is not gonna get the job done or will be evaded. Ai will stand there in the area, a player will not.

I'll give you an example of a game today.

6man FFA....I'm advent and I have Vasari to my left and right......OK I think to myself, I'm going to be facing defensors from one or both sides so I produce Tempests....aka the anti corvette frigate. My opposition to my right sees my fleet composition and decides to counter my anti covette frigates with...............corvettes.........effectively. Now why didn't he build oppressors or something else to kill me?........because he doesn't have to, its as simple as that. He can out spam everyone with defensors because the effectiveness, cost and build time of this corvette in its current state makes it an easy choice.

In isolated engagements without reinforcements, tempests will win against defensors, maybe even 1.5x supplies worth but this isn't effectively true in game.

This is what I mean by unbalanced

[Heartbreak One]

Originally posted by BloB:

6man FFA....I'm advent and I have Vasari to my left and right......OK I think to myself, I'm going to be facing defensors from one or both sides so I produce Tempests....aka the anti corvette frigate. My opposition to my right sees my fleet composition and decides to counter my anti covette frigates with...............corvettes.........effectively. Now why didn't he build oppressors or something else to kill me?........because he doesn't have to, its as simple as that. He can out spam everyone with defensors because the effectiveness, cost and build time of this corvette in its current state makes it an easy choice.

In isolated engagements without reinforcements, tempests will win against defensors, maybe even 1.5x supplies worth but this isn't effectively true in game.

This is what I mean by unbalanced

Tempest is NOT the anti-corvette platform for Advent, that would be Aeria/Halcyon spam with fighters.

[Wuorg]

Originally posted by Heartbreak One:

Originally posted by BloB:

6man FFA....I'm advent and I have Vasari to my left and right......OK I think to myself, I'm going to be facing defensors from one or both sides so I produce Tempests....aka the anti corvette frigate. My opposition to my right sees my fleet composition and decides to counter my anti covette frigates with...............corvettes.........effectively. Now why didn't he build oppressors or something else to kill me?........because he doesn't have to, its as simple as that. He can out spam everyone with defensors because the effectiveness, cost and build time of this corvette in its current state makes it an easy choice.

In isolated engagements without reinforcements, tempests will win against defensors, maybe even 1.5x supplies worth but this isn't effectively true in game.

This is what I mean by unbalanced

Tempest is NOT the anti-corvette platform for Advent, that would be Aeria/Halcyon spam with fighters.

At least, Tempest isn't the counter to Defensors specifically, but they do very well against other corvettes that don't have PD.

Admittedly, I don't really play multiplayer except with people I know personally, so my experience on this front is limited. That said, I can tell you that from fighting Impossible Advent AI that loves to spam tempests...Defensors counter them, not the other way around. It isn't really even close.

Edit: That said, I'm not entirely sure what an Advent player would do against an early Defensor rush, except build turrets, which is hardly ideal.

[BloB]

Tempest are anti corvettes guys, I'm sorry but that is the case. They literally have no other purpose but to overwhelm PD and kill corvettes.

The Ai does not spam anything in numbers close to multiplayer, they favour a more balanced fleet with slight emphasis on strikecraft.


Defensors are not meant to counter tempest and will 100% lose on an equal supply fight without reinforcements.....but in their current form they overwhelm everything and thats the point/problem

For reference i have 170hrs in multiplayer, that doesnt make me good or right by default but just for context, im not new to the game.

[Wuorg]

Originally posted by BloB:

Tempest are anti corvettes guys, I'm sorry but that is the case. They literally have no other purpose but to overwhelm PD and kill corvettes.

The Ai does not spam anything in numbers close to multiplayer, they favour a more balanced fleet with slight emphasis on strikecraft.


Defensors are not meant to counter tempest and will 100% lose on an equal supply fight without reinforcements.....but in their current form they overwhelm everything and thats the point/problem

For reference i have 170hrs in multiplayer, that doesnt make me good or right by default but just for context, im not new to the game.

Who said anything about even supply or fair fights? From re-reading our comments, at the very least you and I both agree that Defensors currently "beat" (whatever that means) Tempests. Neither of us can speak to the devs intentions with regard to what is *meant* to counter what, of course.

Point is, as someone inexperienced in multiplayer and who doesn't know you, I don't know if this is a "I've tried one thing and I'm out of ideas" thing, or if Defensors are an actual problem.

[BloB]

Originally posted by Automaton 32:

And i dont get why, you would send a missle ship VS a PD ship.

Tempests have 0 pierce but shoot a lot of missiles that overwhelm PD. They do low damage per missile but inflict damage by sheer quantity. Their missiles have 100% track against fast evasive ships and their missile will retrack to a new target after the first target dies......thats why they are anti corvette. The counter to tempests is literally anything with armour....think skirmishers or oppressors etc as they can tank the 0 pierce missiles and kill the source.

Originally posted by Wuorg:

Who said anything about even supply or fair fights? From re-reading our comments, at the very least you and I both agree that Defensors currently "beat" (whatever that means) Tempests. Neither of us can speak to the devs intentions with regard to what is *meant* to counter what, of course.

When comparing ships against each other you have to talk about equal supply fights otherwise everything beats everything if you have enough of them.


This game is rock paper scissors, but defensors in their current state are bucking this trend, hence the problem.

So i suggest again, remove 1 Light pulse gun to reduce their effectivness against things that are not strike craft or missiles.

If defensors are not meant to fufil the role of PD for the vasari, what is? Oppressors? Vasari literally have no fighters.

And if Defensors are supposed to occupy the role of being bigger fighters, something should be done to reduce (not eradicate) their effectiveness against everything else

[BloB]

Originally posted by Automaton 32:

How much do you play VS AIs? My AIs loves to spam Tempests, like there armys are 70-90% Tempests.

And i dont get why, you would send a missle ship VS a PD ship.

Sure late game, but early to mid, the AI just loves its Tempest spam.

I've played less then 10 games vs Impossible Ai so im fine with your appraisals of Ai fleet compositions.

For early game spam, people only have limited choices for spam so I'm not surprised that fleets have a lot of defensors or tempests or TEC Equivalent. there is no issue there.

What I'm talking about is mid to late game spam. I fought a different guy yesterday whose fleet comprised for 1 Vasari alliance titan and 550+ defensors.........rolled the entire flank in a 5v5. Of course he had help but so did we. I killed that fleet at my homeworld with a max starbase/meteor control, 50 turrets and 220+ tempests but still lost of course. You should see the replay, will melt your gpu :)

[Wuorg]

Alright, I get that you aren't really here to be convinced by anyone. I get why, as your (substantial at this point in the game's cycle) experience tells you something pretty emphatically, and some people that don't share that experience are telling you something different.

That said, please consider there's at least two possibilities for the apparent outsized power of the Defensor:

1) The devs made a mistake and it is too powerful. This happens all the time and would warrant some change of some kind (such as the one you suggested) to prevent the meta from revolving around the one ship too much.

2) The things you think are supposed to counter it, *aren't actually meant to* and you have been hitting your head against a brick wall. For instance, I see your complaints about making Tempests to defeat a Defensor spam, and I think "The first thing I do when I see a lot of Tempests is make a lot of Defensors." For a few different reasons, but tbh their supply-to-power ratio is pretty far in the back of my mind. Perhaps the Vasari players you are fighting are thinking similarly.

Do you play many other RTS? How much power a given unit gives you for its supply is not at all the only or even best metric by which to measure a unit. Real games do not happen in a supply-equal vacuum.

[BloB]

Originally posted by Wuorg:

Alright, I get that you aren't really here to be convinced by anyone. I get why, as your (substantial at this point in the game's cycle) experience tells you something pretty emphatically, and some people that don't share that experience are telling you something different.

That said, please consider there's at least two possibilities for the apparent outsized power of the Defensor:

1) The devs made a mistake and it is too powerful. This happens all the time and would warrant some change of some kind (such as the one you suggested) to prevent the meta from revolving around the one ship too much.

2) The things you think are supposed to counter it, *aren't actually meant to* and you have been hitting your head against a brick wall. For instance, I see your complaints about making Tempests to defeat a Defensor spam, and I think "The first thing I do when I see a lot of Tempests is make a lot of Defensors." For a few different reasons, but tbh their supply-to-power ratio is pretty far in the back of my mind. Perhaps the Vasari players you are fighting are thinking similarly.

Do you play many other RTS? How much power a given unit gives you for its supply is not at all the only or even best metric by which to measure a unit. Real games do not happen in a supply-equal vacuum.

Ultimately, as you have said before, we come from to 2 very different ways to play this game. Both are fine but lead to different experiences.

The Ai will not min max its fleets against your weaknesses but a player will. If you have superior air power, particularly bombers, against someone, you can be sure they will rebalance their airpower into all fighters to counter it. Ai simply wont do this.This is true across the board when talking about fleet composition.

Unfortunately, with the defensors in their current state, players don't have to change anything due to its effectivness.

The devs haven't made a mistake, these are just normal balance issues that come up with every new game. I would seriously doubt that the devs don't know about this issue and will be addressing it in the next patch.

In the previous patch, tempests were a huge issue due to PD not working as intended. Devs knew about it, it was fixed and now tempest are in a good place.

Regarding other RTS, I've played them all really but similar to this lots of sins1 and stellaris. Fleet composition should always in your mind imo, especially when dealing with a limited supply.

You should try dip your toes into multiplayer, if you're holding your own against nightmare/impossible Ai you'll be absolutely fine. Its a game changer and fun........until you come up against 500+ defensors