Thoughts on Fleet Size 2000

[MassiveBallSack]

Played my first game of sins 2 yesterday. Had a blast and love the improvements to visuals for space battles!

One thing I noticed though was how limited the fleet size/supply is in sins 2. Feels like you can only realistically have one fleet operating at a time now and there's no settings option to increase it like in sins 1?

What's everyone thoughts on this.

[ExavierMacbeth]

I am of mixed thoughts on it & thats with playing a few mods that expand the number.

I think the real problem is that there are no controls to limit doomstacking. So expanding the fleet cap just tends to make the doomstack fleet that much harder of a nut to crack.

It would be better if there was a way to limit how much fleet capacity a player (AI or human) was allowed to put into a single fleet to force you to run multiple fleets. While yes this would still let the player or AI send both fleets to the same spot giving you the same effect, the changing phase lanes and moving planets would encourage a much more "watch your back" or "multiple attack points" style of play I think.

[UncleIstvan]

Well, you have to draw a line somewhere. Increasing max supply makes already questionable planet defenses and summons entirely useless in late game, also makes micro-intensive capitals less useful.

With zero-supply defenses being useless, now there's only one way to beat enemy fleet - to have a bigger blob, preferably with counters to his most numerous ship type. So you end with even less incentive to have a second fleet.

What could work is adding debuffs for having too much of the ship type in one gravity well, to encourage multiple fleets and combined arms tactics. But such mechanics are notoriously tough to implement properly.

[Queco Jones21]

I get it. Wished we had more. And better use of fleets by the AI.

I have used mods to increase the fleet cap to double or more. While I like it because I can create numerous fleets and expand faster, the AI still just tends to make a death blob forcing me to consolidate all my fleets (usually 2-3) into one to be able to fight them.

[FileNotFound]

Originally posted by UncleIstvan:

Well, you have to draw a line somewhere. Increasing max supply makes already questionable planet defenses and summons entirely useless in late game, also makes micro-intensive capitals less useful.

With zero-supply defenses being useless, now there's only one way to beat enemy fleet - to have a bigger blob, preferably with counters to his most numerous ship type. So you end with even less incentive to have a second fleet.

What could work is adding debuffs for having too much of the ship type in one gravity well, to encourage multiple fleets and combined arms tactics. But such mechanics are notoriously tough to implement properly.

A way to tackle this in HOI4 naval warfare was with a simple "positioning" penalty. If you have more ships than the enemy, you get a general debuff proportional (though not linear) to the rate of disparity. In a WW2 context this makes a lot of sense, since coordinating big fleets was indeeed a big issue. Here, idk if that would be that welcome, but it could give smaller fleets a chance of being competitive.

[アンジェル]

Originally posted by MassiveBallSack:

Thoughts on Fleet Size 2000
Played my first game of sins 2 yesterday. Had a blast and love the improvements to visuals for space battles!

One thing I noticed though was how limited the fleet size/supply is in sins 2. Feels like you can only realistically have one fleet operating at a time now and there's no settings option to increase it like in sins 1?

What's everyone thoughts on this.

Okay for quick games.

Bad for anything longer than 90 minutes.

Reveals issue with bad economy gameplay system as in lack of upkeep/penalty for maintaining large fleets/fortress worlds.

[КимГордон]

I think a system where the upkeep cost for each ship increases would be a good idea. It would also be beneficial to add more ways to spend the excess resources in the late game. Perhaps there could be no upkeep penalty for ships under the current supply limit, but allow players to produce ships beyond the supply limit with an increased upkeep cost.

[Bovril Brigadier]

Advent can get their fleet supply into the six digit numbers with smart farming of Deliverance Engines.

[Gauntlet]

Originally posted by ExavierMacbeth:

I am of mixed thoughts on it & thats with playing a few mods that expand the number.

I think the real problem is that there are no controls to limit doomstacking. So expanding the fleet cap just tends to make the doomstack fleet that much harder of a nut to crack.

It would be better if there was a way to limit how much fleet capacity a player (AI or human) was allowed to put into a single fleet to force you to run multiple fleets. While yes this would still let the player or AI send both fleets to the same spot giving you the same effect, the changing phase lanes and moving planets would encourage a much more "watch your back" or "multiple attack points" style of play I think.

I too think this would be a good investment/feature/concept to employ.

But something that lightly/softly punishes doom-stacks would be great. Could even be non-combat stats, it could be speed and phase speed. Giving mobility advantages to the player who avoids stacks greater than say 1K of supply.

[HappyCamperBubbleBelow]

Damage mitigation from sins1 actually soft punished doom stacks and concentrating fire.

It was kinda a silly mechanic from a logical standpoint, but it did work extremely well from a balance stand point.

Originally posted by Gauntlet:

Originally posted by ExavierMacbeth:

I am of mixed thoughts on it & thats with playing a few mods that expand the number.

I think the real problem is that there are no controls to limit doomstacking. So expanding the fleet cap just tends to make the doomstack fleet that much harder of a nut to crack.

It would be better if there was a way to limit how much fleet capacity a player (AI or human) was allowed to put into a single fleet to force you to run multiple fleets. While yes this would still let the player or AI send both fleets to the same spot giving you the same effect, the changing phase lanes and moving planets would encourage a much more "watch your back" or "multiple attack points" style of play I think.

I too think this would be a good investment/feature/concept to employ.

But something that lightly/softly punishes doom-stacks would be great. Could even be non-combat stats, it could be speed and phase speed. Giving mobility advantages to the player who avoids stacks greater than say 1K of supply.

[Lord Rizzington of Mewingville]

Originally posted by Strayed:

Advent can get their fleet supply into the six digit numbers with smart farming of Deliverance Engines.

so that's what that is? i just learned the ropes and was having a ton of fun exchanging this planet (playing as TEC enclave btw) with the advent primacy. finally secured it, made a starbase and sat to make a fleet capable of a major offensive and what do i find? they vastly vastly exceed my fleet supply and im like wtf how. i can try and take planets where their forces arent concentrated but once they attack me or come to a planet's aid, it's just a matter of time. really frustrating.

[Medve]

I think stellaris has a good system for this, there is fleet size and fleet capacity. Also maybe game need better counters to some vessels? Or maybe there is and i have noticed it? Like massing just 1 or 2 types of ships should not pay off. Like giving the Garda Flak(and simillar ships) bonus like defenivse bonus to missiles and bombers/Fighters ( as the AI like to massa missile units and bombers alot.

[Gauntlet]

Originally posted by HappyCamperBubbleBelow:

Damage mitigation from sins1 actually soft punished doom stacks and concentrating fire.

It was kinda a silly mechanic from a logical standpoint, but it did work extremely well from a balance stand point.

Originally posted by Gauntlet:

I too think this would be a good investment/feature/concept to employ.

But something that lightly/softly punishes doom-stacks would be great. Could even be non-combat stats, it could be speed and phase speed. Giving mobility advantages to the player who avoids stacks greater than say 1K of supply.

That penalized the tactic of focus fire though, and ultimately failed to impact doom-stacking so much as "you ideally issue orders to attack 4 targets instead of 1".

We need something that doesn't necessarily impact damage or attack power (mostly because it will be very unpopular) but still benefits the player who diversifies beyond a single doom stack.

[Red Duke]

It feels small until 4 fleets with 1800-2000 size meet in the same well. Worse if it's 8 in a choke point.

[RCMidas]

Damage mitigation soft-punished non-Vasari doomstacks. Their phase missiles could simply ignore it outright.

[Tristar Union]

As long as they make any increase in fleet capacity/ships optional, with a slider or something, I'm OK with it. You want to eliminate all logistical considerations and make Star Bases/static defences irrelevant in your game....that's fine with me....just don't put that lameo, infinite resource Stellaris garbage, on me.