TEC Economy Garbage?

[Hot Fuzzy Pizza]

I have heard a number of people say that the TEC has the best economy, but does it really? When I first started learning the game, sure, it seemed fine. I can now routinely beat Nightmare on 1v1, so I'd like to think my build is at least somewhat competent. I find that the TEC have by far the WORST economy of all races. Once you get about a dozen or so trade hubs up, there seems to be nothing you can do to enter that truly late game economy the other races achieve where you have already bought everything you could ever want, queued every tech in the game, and still have 10K+ of everything. Going to more trade hub seems to trigger empire tax in such a big way that each new hub barely offsets the added tax. Wondering if others have run into the same experience.

[RaozSpaz]

TEC economy is far more flexible. Its not that its the strongest in the game, it can just adapt to any situation. Running short on metal, shift over to metal supply. Crystal, shift to crystal. Etc.

I think what you're experiencing is that [at least IMHO] TEC economy has the weirdest growth curve. Each Export is +1 income of its associated type [increasing up to 1.5 with tech]. But for the most part thats all it is. And without tradeports on various planets you are either very limited in what you can export, or are forced to use planetary slots for additional options.

If you really want to see TEC economy go nuts, build starbases in your back line and give them the trade upgrade to pad out your empty exports.

[VoiD]

as Raoz said, it's pretty good late game, I don't ever have to buy/sell materials in the market with horrible conversion rates.

BUT that's only if you can survive the early game, which maters the most, and that's when tec's economy is trash.

Later on they are perfectly fine though.

Oh, and never pick the colony capital ship, that means losing to anyone else in an early engagement.

[RaozSpaz]

Yeah. I typically start with the Kol, though the Sova's early clear is insanely good. Marza is another okay choice, especially if you want some CC for dealing with enemy caps, but it can struggle against some ships. Its better late game.

[This PC]

if you intend to go for a short game, probably best to start with kol, your ending cap makeup will likely fit that more, if you're intending for a longer game, it becomes possible to lean heavy into carriers, and I'd recommend starting with sova in that case. Afaik, they have about the same clear speed, sova is a little bit slower because it's affected pretty heavy by gardas.

Like, have to think about later in the game because if you protect it, it's gonna be your highest level cap and probably the most impactful you have. This is why akkan is super meh to start with, it's much slower early game (you'll probably end up with more resources using a sova and clearing more planets than you'd save using cap colonize) and loses much of its usefulness midgame (armistice tho).

It's not true that economy early game matters in the sense that Tec are crippled there, on bigger maps where they have room to grow, they quickly outpace everyone else in terms of economy, and like was mentioned, they don't depend on getting specific planets, their eco output is always good moving forward from there.

I don't think considering the value of a faction purely based on one specific way to play is how you balance things in a video game. Am glad we have options, and I would love to see people realize that not everyone plays in their context.

Not that TEC can't defend itself at all early game, and that it takes that much longer to build up. I generally play with two friends, one vasari exodus, one advent reborn, and I snowball pretty quickly and am usually the one handling the first few harder battles.

This is against unfair AI, but again, not everyone plays competitively online vs players on small maps, or are satisfied to play 1v1 impossible AI on 15 planets maps. I feel like the majority of the playerbase plays this to play longer maps against AI, most also add mods on top of this, so I don't feel balancing for a 1v1 starcraft style of gameplay is really appropriate for sins, it's not their playerbase lol.

[RaozSpaz]

Originally posted by This PC:

if you intend to go for a short game, probably best to start with kol, your ending cap makeup will likely fit that more, if you're intending for a longer game, it becomes possible to lean heavy into carriers, and I'd recommend starting with sova in that case. Afaik, they have about the same clear speed, sova is a little bit slower because it's affected pretty heavy by gardas.

Like, have to think about later in the game because if you protect it, it's gonna be your highest level cap and probably the most impactful you have. This is why akkan is super meh to start with, it's much slower early game (you'll probably end up with more resources using a sova and clearing more planets than you'd save using cap colonize) and loses much of its usefulness midgame (armistice tho).

Nah. Sova's clear is by far the fastest. If you full switch to bombers and have the bombers focus the gardas first the Sova will tear through garrisons extremely fast. Ive had a single level 3 Sova take on some of the harder garrisons [even up to Terrans sometimes] and with a little micro itll win. Kols and the others struggle.

Also IMHO the Akkan is never bad to have. Legitimately never.
Colonize is useful so you dont have to drag a colony ship around all the time.
Broadcast is extremely powerful buff [Kol + AutoLoader + Broadcast does insane dmg]
Trade is less useful of its abilities, but you can just ignore it. Or put points into it instead of leveling colonize
Armistice is bonkers busted. Especially if paired with a level 6 anky.
Also the Akkan can easily be used to carry your aura items for the fleet.

[This PC]

I mean, I take planets with lone sovas too :P I know they're extremely strong.
Someone timed it a few weeks ago tho and kol seemed to come on top, enough for me to believe that it's a real contender (not enough to believe it's better than a sova for me tho, just that it's a contender), altho I always roll sova.

I usually colonize with influence items, but I understand this is not always available. Rather keep that supply for another sova, though akkans have a pretty good aura and armistice is great, like I said. Said that more in the context of choosing your first cap. ^^

The problem with armistice though is that like... I think I only needed it once in 75h of sins2. :D It's great!... but very situational, and you can like... Achieve its effect with other means, like lvl 6 ank :D

[Hot Fuzzy Pizza]

I've actually had good success opening Akkan. I do rush out a Kol pretty fast, even before I research exotics (by double surveying the home world), that plus about 15 light frigate can typically hold off any early fights...but it is fair to say that if I run into the AI in the very early game, I just have to concede that system due to the Akkan.

[This PC]

Opening akkan works, but it's slower.
It's immediately obvious the next game when you choose a sova when you're used to akkan. ^^''

[RaozSpaz]

Originally posted by This PC:

I mean, I take planets with lone sovas too :P I know they're extremely strong.
Someone timed it a few weeks ago tho and kol seemed to come on top, enough for me to believe that it's a real contender (not enough to believe it's better than a sova for me tho, just that it's a contender), altho I always roll sova.

I usually colonize with influence items, but I understand this is not always available. Rather keep that supply for another sova, though akkans have a pretty good aura and armistice is great, like I said. Said that more in the context of choosing your first cap. ^^

100% agree. With basically all this XD Even the influence item aspect XD I typically try to push my Akkan back as long as possible, but the amount of damage it brings to Kols and Marzas [and fleet in general] can't be underestimated. Especially if you turn it into an aura boat.

But yeah. Choosing first cap. 100% agree. Sova and Kol are both really good choices.

Originally posted by Hot Fuzzy Pizza:

I've actually had good success opening Akkan. I do rush out a Kol pretty fast, even before I research exotics (by double surveying the home world), that plus about 15 light frigate can typically hold off any early fights...but it is fair to say that if I run into the AI in the very early game, I just have to concede that system due to the Akkan.

The problem with opening Akkan is in order to maximize its clear power you have to micro its positioning. Which is annoying. Kol and Sova require little to no micro and just require you to build a Protev or get lucky with the influence colonizer.

By the time an Akkan has cleared 1 asteroid, a Kol or Sova has probably cleared 2 and well on to a third or their first planet.

[Hot Fuzzy Pizza]

Originally posted by This PC:

Opening akkan works, but it's slower.
It's immediately obvious the next game when you choose a sova when you're used to akkan. ^^''

I'll have to give it a try. I wasn't picking the Akkan for its speed in taking planets, but its speed in getting an early trade network going. Between the trade supply it adds and being able to start a new hub as soon as a planet in colonized seems like a pretty big benefit. Having said that...there is a solid chance that the base income rates of the planets will exceed anything early trade can do.

[Hot Fuzzy Pizza]

Originally posted by RaozSpaz:

The problem with opening Akkan is in order to maximize its clear power you have to micro its positioning. Which is annoying. Kol and Sova require little to no micro and just require you to build a Protev or get lucky with the influence colonizer.

By the time an Akkan has cleared 1 asteroid, a Kol or Sova has probably cleared 2 and well on to a third or their first planet.

This is 100% true, I do spend most of my early game APM microing units. Its not hard to use the Akkan + 9 frigs to take on just about any early encampments, but the harder ones can be work and it is slow going. I have done it enough times that I am able to do it without missing other important timings, but still, you are right that it is annoying.

[RaozSpaz]

Originally posted by Hot Fuzzy Pizza:

Originally posted by This PC:

Opening akkan works, but it's slower.
It's immediately obvious the next game when you choose a sova when you're used to akkan. ^^''

I'll have to give it a try. I wasn't picking the Akkan for its speed in taking planets, but its speed in getting an early trade network going. Between the trade supply it adds and being able to start a new hub as soon as a planet in colonized seems like a pretty big benefit. Having said that...there is a solid chance that the base income rates of the planets will exceed anything early trade can do.

I saw someone earlier talk about ignoring mining facilities and just focusing hubs on every planet. As much as I want to agree with them I actually think they are wrong. Unless you are able to fully fill the export an asteroid's trade port with something else [like an Akkan/Starbase/Planetary item] the only advantage of going a Trade Port over 2 mining nodes is .1 income [increasing at higher tech] and the flexibility to choose between metal or crystal [instead of whats available]. But it costs way more.

Whilst a good benefit and a way to possibly push your Eco, im not sure the speed drop is worth it in regards to everything else you sacrifice to do it.

Originally posted by Hot Fuzzy Pizza:

This is 100% true, I do spend most of my early game APM microing units. Its not hard to use the Akkan + 9 frigs to take on just about any early encampments, but the harder ones can be work and it is slow going. I have done it enough times that I am able to do it without missing other important timings, but still, you are right that it is annoying.

Mind you ive only really played PVE and Im 90% certain how i play would suffer in PVP but I rarely build frigates to help clear. I focus on getting those materials into tech/economy. Its part of why the Akkan has fallen out of favor for me. Its not self sufficient.

In PVP that might change a bit though. Not certain.

[Hot Fuzzy Pizza]

Originally posted by RaozSpaz:

Originally posted by Hot Fuzzy Pizza:

I'll have to give it a try. I wasn't picking the Akkan for its speed in taking planets, but its speed in getting an early trade network going. Between the trade supply it adds and being able to start a new hub as soon as a planet in colonized seems like a pretty big benefit. Having said that...there is a solid chance that the base income rates of the planets will exceed anything early trade can do.

I saw someone earlier talk about ignoring mining facilities and just focusing hubs on every planet. As much as I want to agree with them I actually think they are wrong. Unless you are able to fully fill the export an asteroid's trade port with something else [like an Akkan/Starbase/Planetary item] the only advantage of going a Trade Port over 2 mining nodes is .1 income [increasing at higher tech] and the flexibility to choose between metal or crystal [instead of whats available]. But it costs way more.

Whilst a good benefit and a way to possibly push your Eco, im not sure the speed drop is worth it in regards to everything else you sacrifice to do it.

That's basically been my strategy, try to focus on surface mining upgrades and trade. I typically don't even unlock orbitals unless I need to offset a bad starting position, like no volcanic or no arctic. I feel like it works for the early game. I saw you say that early game TEC economy sucks; I've actually not had that problem. My issues tends to be more mid to late game, where I feel like those early game choices have probably already been factored out; by then, I can easily add orbitals if needed.

[RaozSpaz]

Ive never had an issue with late game TEC economy. Very very occassionally I will run into a situation where I might randomly run out of metal or crystal, but a lot of the times I can just buy it with credits. And typically those moments are when im massing buying items for my capital ships.

[RCMidas]

I resolve taking an Akkan first by virtue of the fact that I only play the largest maps where I'm able to colonise in multiple directions at the same time. I leave the Akkan to go in one direction, and my Cobalts and Protev in the other, whilst I can supplement either direction with a second capital ship as necessary.