Sins of a Solar Empire II

Sins of a Solar Empire II

mr.bouh Sep 4, 2024 @ 7:12am
Lots of numbers : how an aeria drone host fleet fares against various other ships in theory, and a model to assess it
I wanted to make a theoretical analysis of how various ships would fare against the aeria drone host, because I've noticed that this ship is famous for being extremely powerful, and on paper it actually has an extremely high dps through its drones. Through discussions, it appears than analysing and comparing stats per supply point would be far easier and interesting, because this stat will make a ceiling on what you can field and how you can fight.

Here I do NOT consider the economic aspect. I compare ship to ship regardless of how expensive it is to build them, so this is a tactical assessment only. I also do NOT consider movements, and how ships will avoid projectiles through their movements, or how one will have the first strike or not, first because I'm not expert enough to make hypothesis on these factors, and second because it would be depending on player skill in placement, movement, and engagement of the enemy fleet.

So in essence this model is a dps race. We have ehp (equivalent hp, so hp factoring damage reduction from armor), dps, and effective dps (factoring pierce vs durability). I compute all these values versus their supply, so that I can compare 1 supply of a ship vs 1 supply of another ship. This makes the calculations easier, and it allows to scale however we like the results. It introduces a blindspot : thresholds will not be accounted for, that is when a large supply ship is destroy, suddenly a large portion of the fleet damage is also lost ; conversely, a small attrition of the a fleet will slowly decrease their damage capabilities, and this model doesn't account for this effect at all. Still, I think it can give a decent picture of how a very homogenous fleet can be countered. The final value used it the ttl, or time to live. It is the number of seconds it takes for X supply of the enemy ship to destroy X supply of the considered ship. I then present the ratio of equilibrium, that is the ratio of supply that would lead to a "stalemate", where both fleets would be mostly or completely destroyed.

Another thing to consider is very specific to studying a battle against a drone ship : a drone ship has no weapon by itself, but his drones can be destroyed. This means that you can completely defang a drone fleet by destroying the drones. After that, they won't rebuild them fast enough to prevent their destruction. The rebuild of drone squadrons can be considered as a form of healing/regen that I did not considered in these numbers, but other ships can be repaired, heal themselves, or can be rebuild even in the battle too.

First stats :
aeria drone host : 162hp/supply, 150 durability, 3 squadrons ; fighter : 4.8dps/supply, 50 pierce, 60hp/supply ; bombers : 4.59dps/supply, 300 pierce, 81hp/supply
garda mkII : 3.45dps/supply, 278ehp/supply, 100 durability
fighter vs garda : fighter effective dps/supply = 3.2dps/supply ; fighter ttl = 17s ; garda ttl = 87s ; => 5:1 in favour of garda mkII
this means if you have a ratio of 1:5 supply of garda to aeria drone host with fighters, it's about equal. But it means that if you get more garda supply, you will have supremacy. How much more you need is a tough question though. This number also gives the time it takes to destroy an equal number of supply equivalent of the enemy. This means 200 supply of garda will take 17s to destroy 200 supply of fighters, that is without accounting for movement and overkill.

TEC stats :
harcka heavy cruiser : 1.78dps/supply, 200 pierce, 187ehp/supply
javelis LRM cruiser : 2dps/supply, 450 pierce, 249ehp/supply, 200 durability
percheron carrier cruiser : 167ehp/supply, 150 durability ; fighter : 4.3dps/supply, 50 pierce, 62ehp/supply ; bombers : 4.6dps/supply, 300 pierce, 70ehp/supply
shriken gunship corvette : 3.46dps/supply, 50 pierce, 200ehp/supply, 0 durability

bomber vs garda : no missile, so no dps lost from PD ; bomber pierce makes garda durability irrelevant. bomber ttl = 24s ; garda ttl = 61s ; supply ratio of equilibrium : 2.5:1 in favour of garda.
harcka vs bomber (the harcka obviously attack the drone host, not the bombers) : bomber effective dps/supply = 2.3 ; aeria host ttl = 91s ; harcka ttl = 81s. Aeria drone host wins.
javelis vs bomber : aeria host ttl = 81s ; javelis ttl = 54s ; aria drone host wins again.
percheron fighter vs aeria bombers : bombers ttl = 19s ; percheron ttl = 36s ; => percheron wins 2:1
shriken vs aeria fighters : shriken ttl = 42s ; fighter ttl = 17s ; shriken wins 2.5:1
shriken vs aeria bombers : shriken ttl = 43s ; bomber ttl = 23s ; shriken wins 1.8:1

This means that TEC cannot wins against an aeria drone host fleet without combined arms. You need a healthy number of support ships to shield your heavier ships against the drones. It also means that you need much MUCH more protective ships than you think. You need *at least* half the supply of aeria drone host in garda or shriken for TEC. That means 3 garda or 4 shriken for EACH aeria drone host. That means if there are 40 aeria drone hosts, you need at least 120 garda or 160 shriken to win the engagement against the drones, but you'll still need to destroy the hosts after that, and you'll suffer losses before you clean the drones. In this situation, garda will take 24s to destroy half the bombers, and another 24s, if they don't suffer losses, to destroy the rest. In 24s, the bombers will inflict 66k damage, so do not expect any capital ship or starbase to survive a focus fire.

That's still a hard counter though : 40 aeria drone host is 800 fleet supply that you completely negate with 480 supply. That leaves you with 320 supply for anything. Hoshiko are always good to have, and then whatever you fancy. LRM cruisers would probably be good to eat through anything the advent could be tempted to switch to, or kalev frigates to eat though those capital ships.

A note on capital ships : they varies greatly in ehp, from 6700ehp for the sova to 8400 for the kol. But the durability and the abilities greatly increases this. Against bombers it triples (x3) the ehp. The kol with its shield ability multiply the ehp by something like 6. But their size means the enemy will lose less damage switching target and overkilling, and as the numbers show, they can be killed in a few seconds still. On the other hand, some abilities are crazy good. As said, the kol can absorb a stupid amount of firepower to the point it's probably a mistake to focus it first. There is an item that can anihilate drones. Items can increase the resilience of capital ships further. I would imagine the sova to be the best to fight drones, because he can build corvette on field ; it is the most fragile though, and one of the lowest damage.

What about vasari ?
tosurak raider : 1.6dps/supply, 150/300 pierce, 190ehp/supply
Sulsurak defender : 2.5dps/supply, 234ehp/supply, 30 durability
ravastra skirmisher : 1.5dps/supply, 150 pierce, 253ehp/supply, 60 durability
kanrak assailant : 2dps/supply, 450 pierce, phase missile, 258ehp/supply, 120 durability
kortovas oppressor : 1.33dps/supply, 180 pierce, PD 0.4dps/supply, 191hp/supply, 400 durability
lasurak transporter : PD 0.44dps/supply, 189ehp/supply, 180 durability, 2 squadrons ? ; bomber : 3.2dps/supply, 300 pierce, phase missile, 57ehp/supply

tosurak vs fighter (striking the aeria) : tosurak ttl = 40s ; aeria ttl = 101s ; 2.5:1 in favour of aeria drone host
sulsurak vs fighter : sulsurak ttl = 49s ; fighter ttl = 24s ; 2:1 in favour of sulsurak
sulsurak vs bomber : sulsurak ttl = 51s ; bomber ttl = 32s ; 1.6:1 in favour of sulsurak
ravastra vs bomber (striking the host) : ravastra ttl = 55s ; aeria ttl = 108s ; 2:1 in favour of aeria host (fighters would be better)
kanrak vs bomber : kanrak ttl = 56s ; aeria ttl = 81s ; 1.5:1 in favour of aeria drone host (fighters are worse)
kortovas vs bomber : bomber effective dps/supply = 2.3 ; kortovas ttl = 83s ; aeria ttl = 122s ; bomber ttl (PD) = 202s ; 1.5:1 in favour of aeria drone host, but PD might affect the drone dps, so it's probably lower. Fighters would be completely ineffective.
lasurak vs aeria : lasurak ttl = 41s ; aeria ttl = 50s ; 1.2:1 in favour of aeria drone host. But there are PD that makes the true odds less favourable, and phase missiles improvement can probably reverse the odds ; you should reach a 1:1 ratio when phase missile reach 55% shield bypass. This is surprising. But if the aeria has any number of fighters, they will anihilate the vasari bombers.

Like the lasurak, the kanrak should revert the odds with phase missile improvements, and it should happen once it reaches 60% shield bypass.

I should be noted that the severun overseer will decrease the damage of any ships. This can radically change a number of "matchup". The regen of vasari ships is also not considered ; it wouldn't be much vs focus fire, be it would be very significant if damage is spread out. Many vasari ships also have PD, so a mixed fleet should give quite good results. Still, a healthy number of sulsurak defenders seems advised : 2 at the very minimum, 3 more comfortably, for each aeria drone host. That is 120 corvettes in a 1000 supply fleet (against 40 aeria hosts).
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Showing 1-15 of 33 comments
Vandom Sep 4, 2024 @ 8:33am 
A tiny slice of combat, but still really useful to consider the implications.

I'm actually surprised ships are losing to aeria when directly targeting them. Strike craft have a huge advantage in range, but also their ability to quickly retarget and focus fire, just like missile ships. This utility should have been balanced with lower stats.

I did a similar simulation attempt with phase missiles a while back, so I appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into this sort of analysis.

One thing to consider is that fleets and damage sources can be mixed. So expecting phase damage to be above 50% is unrealistic for the stage of the game where that tech is unlocked. I would have liked to see how PD affected Aeria DPS over time, to get an idea of how PD works to mitigate, rather than just versus.

If you want to test some of these numbers in game I'd be willing to help. Theory is great when you put in the effort to get actual numbers, but no way to be sure your results without testing.
This PC Sep 4, 2024 @ 8:56am 
sova also has missile batteries, each are basically half a jav, half a garda, each can drop several over the course of a fight, and it's entirely free ^^
Last edited by This PC; Sep 4, 2024 @ 8:57am
アンジェル Sep 4, 2024 @ 9:13am 
At first it went well and I thought they are even overpowered. Then I had seen them wiped out almost instantly against certain Vasari vessel, leaving me with zero fleet power within seconds into combat.
Temp3st Sep 4, 2024 @ 9:18am 
When considering TEC do note that making a Sova is better supply wise than building equivalent number of percheron / guarda. Sova spam is surprisingly effective against many strikecraft type of strats.
Last edited by Temp3st; Sep 4, 2024 @ 9:26am
mr.bouh Sep 4, 2024 @ 11:18am 
Originally posted by Vandom:
A tiny slice of combat, but still really useful to consider the implications.

I'm actually surprised ships are losing to aeria when directly targeting them. Strike craft have a huge advantage in range, but also their ability to quickly retarget and focus fire, just like missile ships. This utility should have been balanced with lower stats.

I did a similar simulation attempt with phase missiles a while back, so I appreciate the amount of time and effort that goes into this sort of analysis.

One thing to consider is that fleets and damage sources can be mixed. So expecting phase damage to be above 50% is unrealistic for the stage of the game where that tech is unlocked. I would have liked to see how PD affected Aeria DPS over time, to get an idea of how PD works to mitigate, rather than just versus.

If you want to test some of these numbers in game I'd be willing to help. Theory is great when you put in the effort to get actual numbers, but no way to be sure your results without testing.
When you look at numbers, drones and missiles are all way above the usual dps for a weapon with such pierce value. Pierce value is an important balancing factor, and missiles seem balanced around the idea that PD will shoot some of them.

The numbers for damage mitigation are very stark : if you don't pierce, the damage falls extremely quickly. Missing 100 pierce against durability is already halving your damage. A starbase with its 1000 durability will divide damage from low pierce weapon by almost 10.

Another factor is that the bomber movement, even with beams, may not allow them to shoot well against some enemies. I'm not sure they would be able to shoot at corvettes for example.

Originally I thought it was overtuned, but after seeing the numbers against the vasari, I'm not sure. Many vasari dps ships are very close from those aeria drone ship, and because they don't have drones, they are not as easy to negate their damage. I am convinced the exoria illuminator is a lot better in practice later in the game, because it has long range still, beams cannot be mitigated, and they have more pierce : exoria illuminator : 2.66dps/supply, 400 pierce, 237hp/supply, 150 durability. Against heavy cruisers it's better than drones. Against capital ships as well.

Technologies might have a big impact too depending on the situation. Here I only include the garda MkII, but all TEC ships can get a shield on top. I showed how phase missiles research can tilt a matchup in favour of the vasari. I suspect advent drones will not improve much, or at least not as much as most other ships when it comes to research. Economy also has a role I suspect : vasari have their fabricator cruisers, TEC have production on starbases and a powerful economy, advent have conversion or resurrection, but those are harder to use to win a battle.
Vandom Sep 4, 2024 @ 3:33pm 
Originally posted by mr.bouh:
The numbers for damage mitigation are very stark : if you don't pierce, the damage falls extremely quickly. Missing 100 pierce against durability is already halving your damage. A starbase with its 1000 durability will divide damage from low pierce weapon by almost 10.
The mitigation effect of durability quickly falls off 100 above pierce. Ex, The difference between 100 and 200 durability is .5 and .33. This counter intuitively benefits high dps low pierce weapons, making them less worse the stronger the durability.

Originally posted by mr.bouh:
Originally I thought it was overtuned, but after seeing the numbers against the vasari, I'm not sure. Many vasari dps ships are very close from those aeria drone ship, and because they don't have drones, they are not as easy to negate their damage. I am convinced the exoria illuminator is a lot better in practice later in the game, because it has long range still, beams cannot be mitigated, and they have more pierce : exoria illuminator : 2.66dps/supply, 400 pierce, 237hp/supply, 150 durability. Against heavy cruisers it's better than drones. Against capital ships as well.
Well you can try that, but strike craft have a lot of utility advantage so I think in practise there is a reason everyone spams them. Actually after doing the math myself I came to a different result vs caps, Aeria bombers did 1.7 vs 1.5 with 500 durability.

Originally posted by mr.bouh:
Technologies might have a big impact too depending on the situation. Here I only include the garda MkII, but all TEC ships can get a shield on top. I showed how phase missiles research can tilt a matchup in favour of the vasari. I suspect advent drones will not improve much, or at least not as much as most other ships when it comes to research. Economy also has a role I suspect : vasari have their fabricator cruisers, TEC have production on starbases and a powerful economy, advent have conversion or resurrection, but those are harder to use to win a battle.
I agree that it's important to consider how different factors will work in a battle, or the wider context. I still believe phase missiles will only rarely ever be useful due to damage mixing.

Going back to Aeria vs Illuminator again. The Advent suffer from credit shortage, which is why the Tempest is so good costing only metal and crystal. Aeria is the same, using only metal and crystal, while Illuminator is mostly credits. This makes Aeria incredibly affordable in context of Advent economy.

Originally posted by mr.bouh:
Another factor is that the bomber movement, even with beams, may not allow them to shoot well against some enemies. I'm not sure they would be able to shoot at corvettes for example.
I haven't seen any issues with targeting, in fact I think the additional factors play into bomber strength more than corvettes in that matchup. I know you said you didn't take this stuff into consideration, but definitive sweeping conclusions can't be made while still ignoring them.

One of the larger, and easier to calculate would be Aeria bomber alpha strike. It is powerful, better than other bombers due to beams. There is no travel time for missiles, so when a target dies, the other bombers retarget more quickly and waste less dps. That's the advantage of having lots of fast little instant attacks, however the alpha strike on bombers is particularity good if you see how long it takes between shots. All that damage is done upfront, so they are always able to do (reload time)seconds of dps in the first second. That alone is going to make all your ttl shift by like 5s in favour of Aeria. This could wildly change certain matchups in large numbers if right at the start Defensors lose 1/6 of their number in the first second.

There is a lot of other factors that tilt things in favour or against Aeria because strike craft. It really limits what you can do with simple calculations without seeing results.
mr.bouh Sep 4, 2024 @ 4:58pm 
Originally posted by Vandom:
The mitigation effect of durability quickly falls off 100 above pierce. Ex, The difference between 100 and 200 durability is .5 and .33. This counter intuitively benefits high dps low pierce weapons, making them less worse the stronger the durability.
That is very much wrong. It is an illusion made by considering only the damage reduction number. It is in fact a 1/x function. .5 is x=2 ; .33 is x=3. But ehp grow linearly with this : you multiply ehp by 2 for x=2, by 3 for x=3, etc. This means that for each 100 durability that you do not pierce, you add the base amount of ehp of the target. Against a 100 durability enemy, tempest sees twice the ehp. Against 200 durability, tempest sees 3 times the ehp. Against a capital ship with 500 durability, the ehp pool of the capital ship is virtually multiplied by 5.

Originally posted by Vandom:
Well you can try that, but strike craft have a lot of utility advantage so I think in practise there is a reason everyone spams them. Actually after doing the math myself I came to a different result vs caps, Aeria bombers did 1.7 vs 1.5 with 500 durability.
Your equation is wrong. Against a capital ship, aeria fighters will do 0.87dps/supply, which is terrible. Bombers will do 1.53dps/supply.

The damage formula is reduced damage = base damage x 100 / (100 + durability - pierce)

Originally posted by Vandom:
One of the larger, and easier to calculate would be Aeria bomber alpha strike. It is powerful, better than other bombers due to beams. There is no travel time for missiles, so when a target dies, the other bombers retarget more quickly and waste less dps. That's the advantage of having lots of fast little instant attacks, however the alpha strike on bombers is particularity good if you see how long it takes between shots. All that damage is done upfront, so they are always able to do (reload time)seconds of dps in the first second. That alone is going to make all your ttl shift by like 5s in favour of Aeria. This could wildly change certain matchups in large numbers if right at the start Defensors lose 1/6 of their number in the first second.
This comment is wild. You are not questioning how it works, you are telling a story and inventing numbers. The defensors will attack the bombers too. The most important factor will be range. I've noticed that vasari bombers will attack from quite far, almost out of PD range for example, which means they don't take much damage from PD (if they come from the right direction), but their missiles will be destroyedd by PD. Advent bombers have to come closer, and they don't have missiles, so the full dps of PD and light turrets will hit them. We also don't know if the dps given account for the bomber movement, or if the movement makes the true dps lower. We can suppose it accounts for it, but it'll be hard to measure. Also of note : the speed difference between defensors and advent bombers is not that big.

The alpha strike can be good on most ships. Kalev frigates will quickly have a critical mass that can eat through a capital ship. That's why exoria illuminator are so expensive for the advents : the piercing and the beams means they are much deadlier than bombers, and they don't die as easily as bombers.
VoiD Sep 4, 2024 @ 5:44pm 
Yeah, you always need to be careful around percentages, the closer they get to the extremes, the more impactful they become.

A 99% damage reduction is 2x stronger than a 98% reduction.
Vandom Sep 4, 2024 @ 6:03pm 
Originally posted by mr.bouh:
Your equation is wrong. Against a capital ship, aeria fighters will do 0.87dps/supply, which is terrible. Bombers will do 1.53dps/supply.
Fresh game, equal upgrades.

Aeria
20 supply
300 piercing = 100/(100+(500-300))= .3333333333
5.7x18= 102.6dps
102.6dps/20 supply
=5.13 per supply x .333 durability mitigation
=1.71 true dps

Illuminator
8 supply
400 piercing = 100/(100+(500-400))= .5
12.8+(5.7x2)= 24.2dps
24.2dps /8 supply
=3.025per supply x .5 durability mitigation
=1.5125 true dps

I don't trust any of your math now if you get this wrong, get told it was wrong, then just double down.
Originally posted by mr.bouh:
This comment is wild. You are not questioning how it works, you are telling a story and inventing numbers.
Then I'll leave you to it then since you clearly have it all figured out.
Korbo Sep 4, 2024 @ 6:59pm 
Vandom is correct.

To put it another way: Have a bunch of Shrikens and a bunch of Cobalts.
The Shriken deals 10 dps, pierce 50.
The Cobalt deals 7.3 DPS, pierce 150.

If they attack something with 0-50 durability, the Shriken obviously wins with 10dps to the Cobalts 7.3.
If they attack something with 150 durability, like a Krosov, the Cobalt wins - it's dealing its original 7.3 DPS, whereas the Shriken now deals 5 DPS.

You might assume this relation continues with the Cobalt doing better vs heavily armored units, or at least better by the same proportion, so lets test it against a Kol battleship with 500 durability. The Shriken deals 22% of its original DPS, so 2.2 dps. The cobalt deals 28% of its original DPS, or around 2.08dps. Suddenly, the Shriken is better again, despite doing worse against the 150 armor enemy. If you go against a starbase, the numbers are again in the Shirkens favor with 1000 durability, it deals 1.05dps to the Cobalts 0.85dps - a far more dramatic increase for the Shriken.

The extra 36% base damage the Shriken has becomes more important than the -100 piercing as durability values increase.

Also, regarding your numbers - Shriken don't have any PD tagged weapons. They cannot fight Strikecraft, only attack the drone carriers.. The Garda Mk2s Light Autocannon is also not a PD weapon. It can't target strikecraft either.
Last edited by Korbo; Sep 4, 2024 @ 7:01pm
Fendelphi Sep 5, 2024 @ 1:18am 
Originally posted by Korbo:
Vandom is correct.

To put it another way: Have a bunch of Shrikens and a bunch of Cobalts.
The Shriken deals 10 dps, pierce 50.
The Cobalt deals 7.3 DPS, pierce 150.

If they attack something with 0-50 durability, the Shriken obviously wins with 10dps to the Cobalts 7.3.
If they attack something with 150 durability, like a Krosov, the Cobalt wins - it's dealing its original 7.3 DPS, whereas the Shriken now deals 5 DPS.

You might assume this relation continues with the Cobalt doing better vs heavily armored units, or at least better by the same proportion, so lets test it against a Kol battleship with 500 durability. The Shriken deals 22% of its original DPS, so 2.2 dps. The cobalt deals 28% of its original DPS, or around 2.08dps. Suddenly, the Shriken is better again, despite doing worse against the 150 armor enemy. If you go against a starbase, the numbers are again in the Shirkens favor with 1000 durability, it deals 1.05dps to the Cobalts 0.85dps - a far more dramatic increase for the Shriken.

The extra 36% base damage the Shriken has becomes more important than the -100 piercing as durability values increase.

Also, regarding your numbers - Shriken don't have any PD tagged weapons. They cannot fight Strikecraft, only attack the drone carriers.. The Garda Mk2s Light Autocannon is also not a PD weapon. It can't target strikecraft either.
Your conclusion is correct, but you math is a bit off.
The damage reduction formular is 100/(100+True Durability), with True Durability being the value after pierce.
50 Pierce against a Capital Ship results in 0.18, meaning only 18% of the damage goes through, not 22%. So it becomes a DPS of 1.8, not 2.2.
150 Pierce against a Capital Ship results in 0.22, so 22% goes through, or 1.6 DPS.
The Shrike is a pretty decent damage dealer for its fleet cost. But the Cobalt has greater defenses(a lot of armour for its size) and excels in dealing with Frigates and Light Cruisers(200 Durability, you are still dealing 66% of your damage, or 4.9 base DPS, while the Shrike is down to 4 base DPS).

Just for fun. A PD gun(lets say 2 DPS) with 0 Pierce against a Capital Ship.
~17% of the damage goes through, or 0.33 damage. Meaning if you have 5 PD guns shooting at a capital ship, you are dealing about the same amount of damage as a single Cobalt.
Fendelphi Sep 5, 2024 @ 1:38am 
About strikecraft in general. They are quite powerful, but it is also the "weapon type" with the most obvious counters. You can either remove the carrier ship(high fleet pooint cost, but mediocre defenses for that cost), you can shoot down the strikecraft, reducing the number of attackers/overall dps, or you can shoot down the missiles themselves(vs TEC and Vasari).

It is a similar balance with missile weaponry. Powerful, long reach, but can be shot down.

Advent has the most powerful bombers(high number per squadron, no missiles), but they are also the most fragile, as they have no armour, and their Carrier Cruiser takes up the most fleet cap of all Carrier Cruisers.
mr.bouh Sep 5, 2024 @ 3:24am 
Originally posted by Vandom:
Originally posted by mr.bouh:
Your equation is wrong. Against a capital ship, aeria fighters will do 0.87dps/supply, which is terrible. Bombers will do 1.53dps/supply.
Fresh game, equal upgrades.

Aeria
20 supply
300 piercing = 100/(100+(500-300))= .3333333333
5.7x18= 102.6dps
102.6dps/20 supply
=5.13 per supply x .333 durability mitigation
=1.71 true dps

Illuminator
8 supply
400 piercing = 100/(100+(500-400))= .5
12.8+(5.7x2)= 24.2dps
24.2dps /8 supply
=3.025per supply x .5 durability mitigation
=1.5125 true dps

I don't trust any of your math now if you get this wrong, get told it was wrong, then just double down.
Originally posted by mr.bouh:
This comment is wild. You are not questioning how it works, you are telling a story and inventing numbers.
Then I'll leave you to it then since you clearly have it all figured out.
Where do you get this 5.7 dps ? I merely took the wiki numbers, and there the advent bomber is noted 5.1 dps.
mr.bouh Sep 5, 2024 @ 3:28am 
Originally posted by Korbo:
Vandom is correct.

To put it another way: Have a bunch of Shrikens and a bunch of Cobalts.
The Shriken deals 10 dps, pierce 50.
The Cobalt deals 7.3 DPS, pierce 150.

If they attack something with 0-50 durability, the Shriken obviously wins with 10dps to the Cobalts 7.3.
If they attack something with 150 durability, like a Krosov, the Cobalt wins - it's dealing its original 7.3 DPS, whereas the Shriken now deals 5 DPS.

You might assume this relation continues with the Cobalt doing better vs heavily armored units, or at least better by the same proportion, so lets test it against a Kol battleship with 500 durability. The Shriken deals 22% of its original DPS, so 2.2 dps. The cobalt deals 28% of its original DPS, or around 2.08dps. Suddenly, the Shriken is better again, despite doing worse against the 150 armor enemy. If you go against a starbase, the numbers are again in the Shirkens favor with 1000 durability, it deals 1.05dps to the Cobalts 0.85dps - a far more dramatic increase for the Shriken.

The extra 36% base damage the Shriken has becomes more important than the -100 piercing as durability values increase.

Also, regarding your numbers - Shriken don't have any PD tagged weapons. They cannot fight Strikecraft, only attack the drone carriers.. The Garda Mk2s Light Autocannon is also not a PD weapon. It can't target strikecraft either.
Again, this is a 1/x formula. When durability becomes so important compared to pierce, pierce becomes irrelevant, and what's left is the base dps of the unit. My maths are not wrong, and I am not wrong, you merely don't understand the mathematical function at play.
Hurricane Sep 5, 2024 @ 4:27am 
All this is silly and doesn't make any sense in real terms at all.

1. The carriers are at the rim of the wells means any ship to attack the carriers will need go through their fleet first... means anything gunning for them will take massive damage.

The only way to fight mass awarms is pd and garda pd sucks overall. They are so squishy so just evaporate and and Advent fleet will focus your gardas as they know without them tec have bad pd...

Tec and vas need more pd... vas do have a spam worthy corvette which is miles better than the garda, much faster just better overall.

The only thing tec can do vrs mass spam is stack flak ship items on their capitals. They basically nuke corvs and strike craft. It's vital vrs carrier spam as gardas just suck. A swarm will nuke your capitals before gardas can do jack but flak spam will melt them all and make the carriers pointless which makes gardas be able to cope with the slow replenish drip
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Date Posted: Sep 4, 2024 @ 7:12am
Posts: 33