My take on the RNG after 65+ hours and 10/16 trophies

[Naecabon]

I see a lot of people make posts complaining about the RNG in Blue Prince.

I read what they have to say, consider their arguments and realize that, most of the time, sadly, they simply do not understand what Blue Prince is or what it's trying to do.

The common complaint: RNG is too sharp, as the player you feel like you do not have much agency in "winning," too many things go wrong to prevent you from "the goal".

Why this complaint is a fallacy: The "Goal" you think you're chasing, isn't actually the goal at all.

RNG is mitigated in this game heavily by many many permanent upgrades. If you play it enough and solve enough secrets, you'll be starting every day with tons in your favor. I have 100+ coins to start every single day, for example. It's quite powerful. I have borderline infinite room rerolls if and when I want them. I can manipulate the map to give me the tile colors I want, when I want. At the point I am at now, I feel like a god of the estate. It's very rewarding to reach this point.

And even now, I still have so, so much to do.

The fallacy in thinking Blue Prince expects you to reach Room 46 is why so many people are struggling with understanding why the RNG is the way it is - if you knew just how many working pieces were operating around you, if you realized how many of the tiles you take for granted are part of a greater scheme in several multi-faceted meta puzzles, you'd understand that reaching Room 46 is just the first step of like a hundred. And instead of freaking out over the "RNG" of reaching Room 46, what you should INSTEAD be doing while playing Blue Prince is taking what the game gives you in each run and making the best of it - finding the secrets embedded in those tiles, and making effort to find permanent upgrades where able. Room 46 will happen naturally when it's ready to; there's honestly not much reason to rush it.

Endgame players barely care about 46, it's not even on the radar of importance for my last 30-40 hours of play. It's essentially the tutorial. You will be going down five different rabbit holes with ten open ended major puzzles each run and solving one will spawn two more - I don't even notice RNG any more because almost no matter what is going on around me, Im either making puzzle meta progress or actual permanent character progress one way or another.

It's sad, in that I think the heavy emphasis on reaching Room 46 has disillusioned new players in to thinking it is ultimately "the goal" and that anything hardlocking them out of reaching it in a run is "punishing RNG" that shouldn't exist. I realize you can't expect everyone to spend the time to reach a point where they truly understand what a gem of design this game really is, but I do urge anyone struggling with RNG blues to try and see a better perspective beyond just struggling with 46 as a finish line.

Reaching Room 46 is maybe 2% of the content in the game, genuinely.

[Naecabon]

Originalmente postado por Badgerlord:

I simply want a few more permeant upgrades (Maybe they exist and I haven't found them yet). The only one I have found that we can Infinitely increase is gold, I would love to be able to start with Dice. I think having even 6 of those to start with that I had to earn as I play would be a massive improvement in the RNG Department. At the very least it would stop early game "Too many dead ends" that I see a couple times more than I expect.

That's... about all I would want honestly. Just a couple extra dice!

Stars.

[jk guys]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Originalmente postado por NothanUmber:

It is nice that you have all these options now. But please be mindful with those who still don't have them. And might be unlucky enough to not get them for a long time.
On Steam there are currently 15% who got the "Inheritance Trophy" - so 85% are still struggling with this "2% milestone" you mention. And might never reach it before they are fed up with the game long before it.
As I read it, you, with these capabilities to control RNG unlocked enjoy the game much more now that you have them? Why not give some of the elemental ones to everybody from the start? Why these unnecessary roadblocks that neither require skill nor add any depth. The game would perfectly work without them, with all these riddles to unveil.

Unfortunately, there is a sad truth that applies to all roguelites, and that is... that skill plays in to the RNG heavily. People pretend like RNG is RNG without influence, but I can all but guarantee that if I was sitting next to someone playing this complaining about how RNG was the cause of all of their woes, that I would be able to correct their incorrect tile picks or bad decisions to better help them have a smoother run. Essentially, I'm merely suggesting there are a myriad of micro decisions in any given run and many people do not play them correctly. This isn't just a blind assertion, I watch streams. I see the mistakes.

There was never a time where I did not feel like I had more control than RNG. The scales were always tipped in my favor. A major turning point for me was realizing there is no real downside to resetting and becoming more comfortable with accepting rougelite principles like forced resets to get what I want. I spent about 10 hours only starting runs with a Schoolhouse shed, for example, and refused any other option. If the School wasn't available, I simply reset the day on the spot. School is super powerful and at the time, allowed me to get very specific tilesets for certain puzzle solutions I wanted to experiment with. This is not exactly a late game revelation, most discover the outdoor room pretty early and you'd be surprised how many people don't even bother starting at a fundamental step of brute forcing it to be "the good ones" to start your run.

I enjoyed the game the entire time, always felt in control and am just saying that at my point **NOW**, RNG no longer really exists. Its a gradual scale, and on the spectrum it all but vanishes. It just takes time.

You had to brute force the schoolhouse tiles you wanted and you think that's a defense of the game? I thought you were supposed to "go with the flow"?

I resorted to brute forcing at times too, but even feeling the need to do so is a mark against the game in my book.

[Bro&]

They didn't "have" to. it's easier to manipulate the RNG of the outbuilding later. Hell even one dice will give you 6/8 chance of pulling the schoolhouse.

I said it elsewhere but I think the trick is not to worry about actively trying to solve the puzzles that you know how to solve. Heck when I made it to room 46 I wasn't even trying to, I simply looked over my house at some point and realised that I could probably make it.

[Naecabon]

Originalmente postado por Cloudy Rosefield:

Everyone that says "there are great RNG mitigating tools" simply got luckier than others. So you found those tools because you got lucky. Good for you.

None of them are luck at all, actually.

[Naecabon]

Originalmente postado por jk guys:

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Unfortunately, there is a sad truth that applies to all roguelites, and that is... that skill plays in to the RNG heavily. People pretend like RNG is RNG without influence, but I can all but guarantee that if I was sitting next to someone playing this complaining about how RNG was the cause of all of their woes, that I would be able to correct their incorrect tile picks or bad decisions to better help them have a smoother run. Essentially, I'm merely suggesting there are a myriad of micro decisions in any given run and many people do not play them correctly. This isn't just a blind assertion, I watch streams. I see the mistakes.

There was never a time where I did not feel like I had more control than RNG. The scales were always tipped in my favor. A major turning point for me was realizing there is no real downside to resetting and becoming more comfortable with accepting rougelite principles like forced resets to get what I want. I spent about 10 hours only starting runs with a Schoolhouse shed, for example, and refused any other option. If the School wasn't available, I simply reset the day on the spot. School is super powerful and at the time, allowed me to get very specific tilesets for certain puzzle solutions I wanted to experiment with. This is not exactly a late game revelation, most discover the outdoor room pretty early and you'd be surprised how many people don't even bother starting at a fundamental step of brute forcing it to be "the good ones" to start your run.

I enjoyed the game the entire time, always felt in control and am just saying that at my point **NOW**, RNG no longer really exists. Its a gradual scale, and on the spectrum it all but vanishes. It just takes time.

You had to brute force the schoolhouse tiles you wanted and you think that's a defense of the game? I thought you were supposed to "go with the flow"?

I resorted to brute forcing at times too, but even feeling the need to do so is a mark against the game in my book.

I think you may be misunderstanding the "brute force" a bit, you maybe just aren't at that point in the game yet.

[pressea]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

I think you may be misunderstanding the "brute force" a bit, you maybe just aren't at that point in the game yet.

You said you reset the day if it isn't available. I get wanting to avoid spoilers if you meant brute forcing in another way but you can understand how this would cause confusion.

[jk guys]

Originalmente postado por PersonalC0ffee:

Originalmente postado por Oyajuu:

Outer Wilds is entirely deterministic and that’s why it’s immune to the specific criticism discussed here.

Yes you can mitigate RNG, and you can strategize, and switch to secondary goals (provided that you have any left that the game let you identify), and it does get better as you go. But luck of the draw absolutely can make it so that 2 equally capable players may need a vastly different amount of time to reach the first credits.

That is not a thing with Outer Wilds, even accounting for picking different planets/destinations at the start, it will even out eventually, because the player is much more in control.

Outer Wilds doesn't even need to be brought into the discussion because it is not a roguelite. That is an apples to oranges comparison.

The only reason people compare Blue Prince to Outer Wilds is because you gain knowledge the more you play and then you apply it. The comparison stops there.

So players coming here expecting the exact same experience as Outer Wilds, are off to a bad start and clearly do not understand the product. Blue Prince is a puzzle roguelite game, not a outer wilds type game.

"The rooms you draft today, may not be the rooms you draft tomorrow" literally screams RNG to me. If you read the storepage you can see it has a roguelite tag.

Strange, you agree with our fundamental problem then. This game isn't like Outer Wilds, and I wouldn't be here if I knew that first. It would be nice if the critics didn't only compare the game to Outer Wilds and Obra Dinn then. It would also be nice if the next words out of their mouths were not to play it knowing as little as possible.

I noticed the store page doesn't actually help matters much. In the top blurb, the game is described as a "strategy puzzle game" with no mention of roguelike elements, and the top tags do not mention roguelike either. In other words, it being a roguelike is not going to be information given to everyone who was told to buy it blindly. Secondly, the rooms being drafted differently do not have to mean that it is a roguelike, or that the RNG is as strong a factor as it is, but it is certainly a red flag.

This game is a raisin oatmeal cookie being sold as chocolate chip. You are not gonna convince people who hate raisins to like it.

[Naecabon]

Originalmente postado por pressea:

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

I think you may be misunderstanding the "brute force" a bit, you maybe just aren't at that point in the game yet.

You said you reset the day if it isn't available. I get wanting to avoid spoilers if you meant brute forcing in another way but you can understand how this would cause confusion.

Yeah but it's only because I want to do an entire run with a specific daily bonus because I'm targeting certain outcomes. This is, essentially, another permanent bonus at your command and resetting only takes like 30 seconds. The point I'm making is, thinking you can't take the 30 seconds to reset this or choosing not to is a fallacy. There's no harm in resetting it. Take advantage of the opportunities the game is providing you.

[jk guys]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Originalmente postado por jk guys:

You had to brute force the schoolhouse tiles you wanted and you think that's a defense of the game? I thought you were supposed to "go with the flow"?

I resorted to brute forcing at times too, but even feeling the need to do so is a mark against the game in my book.

I think you may be misunderstanding the "brute force" a bit, you maybe just aren't at that point in the game yet.

Okay. What is it that I don't understand? Spoil away as needed. I promise you, I will not be playing the game long enough to find out organically.

[WhiskeyNinja]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Originalmente postado por pressea:

You said you reset the day if it isn't available. I get wanting to avoid spoilers if you meant brute forcing in another way but you can understand how this would cause confusion.

Yeah but it's only because I want to do an entire run with a specific daily bonus because I'm targeting certain outcomes. This is, essentially, another permanent bonus at your command and resetting only takes like 30 seconds. The point I'm making is, thinking you can't take the 30 seconds to reset this or choosing not to is a fallacy. There's no harm in resetting it. Take advantage of the opportunities the game is providing you.

While there is no harm in resetting it, that does underline that you're just gaming the RNG at that point - you have a specific outcome in mind and you're trying to rush/brute force probability in your favor. If people approach this like a puzzle game, they are going to be methodical, and try to maximize each run on the assumption that reasoning and logic will pull more weight than repetition, they're going to have a bad time.

A friend said, "This doesn't feel like a puzzle game, it feels like gambling addiction", and I tend to agree.

[Naecabon]

Originalmente postado por WhiskeyNinja:

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Yeah but it's only because I want to do an entire run with a specific daily bonus because I'm targeting certain outcomes. This is, essentially, another permanent bonus at your command and resetting only takes like 30 seconds. The point I'm making is, thinking you can't take the 30 seconds to reset this or choosing not to is a fallacy. There's no harm in resetting it. Take advantage of the opportunities the game is providing you.

While there is no harm in resetting it, that does underline that you're just gaming the RNG at that point - you have a specific outcome in mind and you're trying to rush/brute force probability in your favor. If people approach this like a puzzle game, they are going to be methodical, and try to maximize each run on the assumption that reasoning and logic will pull more weight than repetition, they're going to have a bad time.

A friend said, "This doesn't feel like a puzzle game, it feels like gambling addiction", and I tend to agree.

This is a fallacy though.

This is a Puzzle game AND a Rougelite game. The point I'm making is - you cannot complain about RNG if you are not willing to fight back and harness that power for good. If you are not willing to play a Rougelite the way Rougelites are played, you are also never going to have a valid opinion on the design of the game or it's intended outcomes. Yes, I am gaming the RNG, because that is how these games are played. It isn't without drawback - resetting the shed means you'll lose out on mailroom packages at your doorstep, or daily reset bonuses form various rooms - it isn't without technical cost which, again, factors in to the equation of doing it or not.

[WhiskeyNinja]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Originalmente postado por WhiskeyNinja:

While there is no harm in resetting it, that does underline that you're just gaming the RNG at that point - you have a specific outcome in mind and you're trying to rush/brute force probability in your favor. If people approach this like a puzzle game, they are going to be methodical, and try to maximize each run on the assumption that reasoning and logic will pull more weight than repetition, they're going to have a bad time.

A friend said, "This doesn't feel like a puzzle game, it feels like gambling addiction", and I tend to agree.

This is a fallacy though.

This is a Puzzle game AND a Rougelite game. The point I'm making is - you cannot complain about RNG if you are not willing to fight back and harness that power for good. If you are not willing to play a Rougelite the way Rougelites are played, you are also never going to have a valid opinion on the design of the game or it's intended outcomes. Yes, I am gaming the RNG, because that is how these games are played. It isn't without drawback - resetting the shed means you'll lose out on mailroom packages at your doorstep, or daily reset bonuses form various rooms - it isn't without technical cost which, again, factors in to the equation of doing it or not.

It isn't a fallacy. Most Roguelikes offer meta-progression that allows you to easily game RNG in your favor - this is present here, but poorly tuned, and the game doesn't do a good job of indicating that you should be churning - in fact it gives the initial impression that you only have a limited time to complete this, so you SHOULD be maximizing your runs.

[jk guys]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Originalmente postado por WhiskeyNinja:

While there is no harm in resetting it, that does underline that you're just gaming the RNG at that point - you have a specific outcome in mind and you're trying to rush/brute force probability in your favor. If people approach this like a puzzle game, they are going to be methodical, and try to maximize each run on the assumption that reasoning and logic will pull more weight than repetition, they're going to have a bad time.

A friend said, "This doesn't feel like a puzzle game, it feels like gambling addiction", and I tend to agree.

This is a fallacy though.

This is a Puzzle game AND a Rougelite game. The point I'm making is - you cannot complain about RNG if you are not willing to fight back and harness that power for good. If you are not willing to play a Rougelite the way Rougelites are played, you are also never going to have a valid opinion on the design of the game or it's intended outcomes. Yes, I am gaming the RNG, because that is how these games are played. It isn't without drawback - resetting the shed means you'll lose out on mailroom packages at your doorstep, or daily reset bonuses form various rooms - it isn't without technical cost which, again, factors in to the equation of doing it or not.

I typically dislike roguelikes, but that doesn't mean I literally dislike all of them. Hades, Slay the Spire, and Into the Breach have all captured my attention in the past.

This game leans into RNG pretty hard even for a roguelike, and unfathomably so for a puzzle game. I can also see several avenues on how the game could work without relying so heavily on RNG and better appeal to the puzzle half of its genre. I don't see some grand vision coming out of dealing with the RNG so much, I have a feeling that if the game was tuned differently, you guys would like it all the same. I very much COULD like it.

An example that comes to mind would be allowing you to freely rotate most rooms, which would actually only add to the strategy layer. Obviously there could still be fixed rooms as needed, but that could just be a trait of the room. If the tiles you get do not work for you, you can build them a different way that blocks you now but would benefit you later. You could build a series of rooms that will connect together at a later point. This actually sounds fun to me, unlike what we have.

A second idea, for the roguelikes I do like, they tend to really capitalize on the idea of a "build", which this game doesn't have much of. You can reduce the deck and look for a few happenstance synergies, but that's about it. If you could start your second round going forward with the ability to "pin" any one room you've drafted before, you could actually attempt to mitigate a lot of the RNG and more reliably create the synergies you are looking for. Do you want keys? Gems? A particular room to show up again? do you want a guaranteed four way option at some point? Again, obviously some rooms could be exempt as needed, but this opens up other possibilities too, such as reducing the tedium of determining where a room can be placed vs. not.

Lastly, the game could guarantee that you will draw at least three new rooms over the course of several draws as available starting at rank 6, regardless of rarity. This assures that RNG doesn't continuously prevent you from working on new puzzles, or finding out way too late how certain things work.

If the game applied the above three notes, my opinion of it would flip immediately. If you think that makes the game too easy, this game could easily have done something like have a 10th rank, with you trying to reach the 51st room. This would only feed into the strategy layer as now conserving good rooms is even more important as the deck dwindles and more locked doors must be passed.

[Naecabon]

Originalmente postado por WhiskeyNinja:

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

This is a fallacy though.

This is a Puzzle game AND a Rougelite game. The point I'm making is - you cannot complain about RNG if you are not willing to fight back and harness that power for good. If you are not willing to play a Rougelite the way Rougelites are played, you are also never going to have a valid opinion on the design of the game or it's intended outcomes. Yes, I am gaming the RNG, because that is how these games are played. It isn't without drawback - resetting the shed means you'll lose out on mailroom packages at your doorstep, or daily reset bonuses form various rooms - it isn't without technical cost which, again, factors in to the equation of doing it or not.

It isn't a fallacy. Most Roguelikes offer meta-progression that allows you to easily game RNG in your favor - this is present here, but poorly tuned, and the game doesn't do a good job of indicating that you should be churning - in fact it gives the initial impression that you only have a limited time to complete this, so you SHOULD be maximizing your runs.

It isn't poorly tuned at all, it's incredibly powerful and eventually you're unstoppable.

[WhiskeyNinja]

Originalmente postado por Naecabon:

Originalmente postado por WhiskeyNinja:

It isn't a fallacy. Most Roguelikes offer meta-progression that allows you to easily game RNG in your favor - this is present here, but poorly tuned, and the game doesn't do a good job of indicating that you should be churning - in fact it gives the initial impression that you only have a limited time to complete this, so you SHOULD be maximizing your runs.

It isn't poorly tuned at all, it's incredibly powerful and eventually you're unstoppable.

I disagree for the reasons I've and others have presented - other roguelikes provide a more transparent method of tracking meta-progression, and preventing blocked runs (making rotating tiles less complicated, automatically allowing carry-over earlier, etc). You're entitled to enjoy it the way you do, but everyone else's feedback on how it felt isn't any less valid.