Okay, the RNG is an issue, but only once you get way beyond the credits

[Kaizze]

I never had an issue with the RNG, I think the vast majority of complaints about the RNG come from people having no idea how little the RNG actually hinders you from progressing, particularly towards getting the credits screen. Not just the credits screen though, there are numerous postgame puzzles that the RNG doesn't bother much.

But I'm now discovering the depth the game goes to, I'm discovering why I've heard things like "I've played for 200+ hours and still find new things" and "I can't believe this only took 8 years to make".

I spoiled myself by looking up a walkthrough to solve a particularly complex endgame puzzle, and the amount of RNG elements you have to lineup to complete it across numerous runs (the puzzle itself REQUIRES numerous runs, even with perfect RNG). To be very clear, this is a very deep into postgame riddle, combining clues from all over the place, I looked it up because I knew I wasn't gonna solve translating a fake language and using a cipher (both things I hate doing). Fun fact, the reward for solving this is a piece to another puzzle, and nothing more, which the depth is WILD and AWESOME.

The problem: The depth requires traversing so much RNG, so many runs. It's based off like Binding of Issac, where you are gonna find secrets and interactions even after many hundreds of hours of playing the game. BUT, the gameplay itself is not fun enough to justify hundreds of hours of repetitive gameplay to stumble upon these things.

My whole point in making this post, I think the depth and breadth of this game's riddle and puzzles are amazing, staggeringly so. I also think the roguelike nature of the game, the RNG-beast does not detract from enjoying the game TO A POINT. I think the developer made a fun game, with a good premise, but went too far. The developer built a universe and web of story, riddle, puzzle - But so much of it is built in a model of gameplay that I think the vast majority of fans will not enjoy enough to experience far too much of it.

Beating a dead horse: I loved my 20 something hours with Blue Prince, it's my favorite puzzle game I've ever played. I WANT to keep playing, I want to try to solve every puzzle and every riddle, but I will not play a fraction of the time required to do so because I do not think the gameplay loop lends itself to chasing that level of depth, I will waste far too much of my time. I WISH the puzzles and riddles and story the developer had created, was in a game like Witness, or Myst, or La-Mulana. So I could attempt to discover it all, without knowing that RNG is constantly eating my progress and time, particularly without the gameplay loop itself being fun and interesting enough to justify.

[NothanUmber]

I think it might be worth to just wait until either the developer shows some mercy and adds the options for determinism that the game is currently lacking. Or if they insist on the current approach being the only way how the game is supposed to be played / suffered through then I guess there will be trainers at some point. Where you can change some of the elements that you consider essential to make the game fun (again).

E.g. I would instantly give me infinite reroll dice for rooms. And in case I get an undesired item in a room where I know the sought-after item could also have been spawned I would unspawn the undesired and spawn the desired item.

Then you aren't spoiling yourself any of the fun parts (one still has to find out everything and find a way to get things done within the steps limit). One just has the necessary tools to turn a bad run into a good run - that it could have been from the start when RNG wouldn't have messed it up.

[Kaizze]

NothanUmber lähetti viestin:

I think it might be worth to just wait until either the developer shows some mercy and adds the options for determinism that the game is currently lacking. Or if they insist on the current approach being the only way how the game is supposed to be played / suffered through then I guess there will be trainers at some point. Where you can change some of the elements that you consider essential to make the game fun (again).

E.g. I would instantly give me infinite reroll dice for rooms. And in case I get an undesired item in a room where I know the sought-after item could also have been spawned I would unspawn the undesired and spawn the desired item.

Then you aren't spoiling yourself any of the fun parts (one still has to find out everything and find a way to get things done within the steps limit). One just has the necessary tools to turn a bad run into a good run - that it could have been from the start when RNG wouldn't have messed it up.

Oh man, I was really sad about the fact I was personally likely done with the game and that means I was never gonna finish solving all the puzzles and riddles I've started going down (I have more screenshots and notes than most other games I've played combined.)

I hadn't considered a trainer! Getting infinite resources (including ivory dice ofc) would definitely hype me to continue playing the game. Thanks for the reply!

[iClan|AnGeL]

I just discovered something on the 70th day : If you drafted enough times the observatory up to 49 times (I know it's a lot), the 50th times gave me the inkshell. It allow to use stars to reroll rooms during the run, making it easier to get whatever room you need

[Kaizze]

iClan|AnGeL lähetti viestin:

I just discovered something on the 70th day : If you drafted enough times the observatory up to 49 times (I know it's a lot), the 50th times gave me the inkshell. It allow to use stars to reroll rooms during the run, making it easier to get whatever room you need

Oh that's actually huge.. I'm around 70 days in too, but I think I'm only at 30 something stars. But that's a very important upgrade in response to my concerns, perhaps the developer should change it to be rewarded sooner, or have a hint/clue (maybe there is one) that lets you know it exists at all.

[theshadowinside]

Kaizze lähetti viestin:

iClan|AnGeL lähetti viestin:

I just discovered something on the 70th day : If you drafted enough times the observatory up to 49 times (I know it's a lot), the 50th times gave me the inkshell. It allow to use stars to reroll rooms during the run, making it easier to get whatever room you need

Oh that's actually huge.. I'm around 70 days in too, but I think I'm only at 30 something stars. But that's a very important upgrade in response to my concerns, perhaps the developer should change it to be rewarded sooner, or have a hint/clue (maybe there is one) that lets you know it exists at all.

Yes, but after using it once you need to get the stars to 50 again to get that again. I only got one room upgrade that let you get more stars, it is still very rng based

[Kaizze]

theshadowinside lähetti viestin:

Kaizze lähetti viestin:

Oh that's actually huge.. I'm around 70 days in too, but I think I'm only at 30 something stars. But that's a very important upgrade in response to my concerns, perhaps the developer should change it to be rewarded sooner, or have a hint/clue (maybe there is one) that lets you know it exists at all.

Yes, but after using it once you need to get the stars to 50 again to get that again. I only got one room upgrade that let you get more stars, it is still very rng based

I was wondering if you got 50 rerolls every run, thanks for clarifying. Turns out that's not as kind a gift/solution as it probably SHOULD be. I guess truly the other response I got is correct, unless the developer patches in some concessions into the gameplay loop about the RNG I probably won't try diving deeper into the postgame until some sort of memory trainer to give myself infinite ivory tokens becomes available.

[iClan|AnGeL]

Tbh, I was happy to discover it since I needed a combination of room for the past 30 run or so.

[Dr. Dry]

I'm like 30 hours in and there's still a lot of stuff I haven't fully solved. I'm not totally sure what exactly your talking about cause I'm not trying to spoil myself, but also I'm okay with a few of the puzzles being incredibly hard or lucky as long as they aren't necessary. Like I doubt most of the people who play the game aren't going to finish all the letters etc. A lot of people will get to the credits and a couple letters and call it.

Some diehard fans will keep going until they get every last piece. But I'd say play until your satisfied then feel free to look it up.

[功夫kappa]

A single use buff after 50 uses of a randomly drawn room is the equivalent of the developers bullying little children by grabbing them by the arms and punching them saying "stop hitting yourself!" thinking it's the cleverst game ever.

[Kaizze]

Dr. Dry lähetti viestin:

I'm like 30 hours in and there's still a lot of stuff I haven't fully solved. I'm not totally sure what exactly your talking about cause I'm not trying to spoil myself, but also I'm okay with a few of the puzzles being incredibly hard or lucky as long as they aren't necessary. Like I doubt most of the people who play the game aren't going to finish all the letters etc. A lot of people will get to the credits and a couple letters and call it.

Some diehard fans will keep going until they get every last piece. But I'd say play until your satisfied then feel free to look it up.

Yeah for sure, the whole point of my post really is a lament that my frustration at trying to get "every last piece" is outweighing my satisfaction.

Getting the 46th room and getting all the letters does feel like the bare minimum. The next big step is doing all the sanctum doors (and what's behind them). But the depth continues WELL beyond that, I'm partially done with the sanctum doors and have started touching the depth beyond that. Hell the spoiler I looked up because of a puzzle I did not want to solve (it's a logicbase I'm not good at and don't enjoy) indicates it goes EVEN DEEPER. I won't see that depth because the gameplay loop no longer satisfies me. It makes me sad and frustrated more than anything. But maybe I will just cheat, and give myself infinite rerolls if and when someone releases a memory trainer for the game.

[Kaizze]

Kaizze lähetti viestin:

NothanUmber lähetti viestin:

I think it might be worth to just wait until either the developer shows some mercy and adds the options for determinism that the game is currently lacking. Or if they insist on the current approach being the only way how the game is supposed to be played / suffered through then I guess there will be trainers at some point. Where you can change some of the elements that you consider essential to make the game fun (again).

E.g. I would instantly give me infinite reroll dice for rooms. And in case I get an undesired item in a room where I know the sought-after item could also have been spawned I would unspawn the undesired and spawn the desired item.

Then you aren't spoiling yourself any of the fun parts (one still has to find out everything and find a way to get things done within the steps limit). One just has the necessary tools to turn a bad run into a good run - that it could have been from the start when RNG wouldn't have messed it up.

Oh man, I was really sad about the fact I was personally likely done with the game and that means I was never gonna finish solving all the puzzles and riddles I've started going down (I have more screenshots and notes than most other games I've played combined.)

I hadn't considered a trainer! Getting infinite resources (including ivory dice ofc) would definitely hype me to continue playing the game. Thanks for the reply!

For anyone reading this and interested, a trainer does exist.

[Rooky]

You summed it up perfectly, and its why I've had to jump off the game before fully finishing it (even tho I wanted to). When I spent 2 hours trying to draw the Boiler room, enough rooms connecting it and the lab was the moment I stopped having fun with the game. Its a shame because if you had slightly more control over the drawing of rooms this game would be near perfect, as it stands its great but ultimately disappointing and frustrating.

[Paracelse]

I finally reached room 46 after 20 hours in and at day 49 ( reached basement earlier but didnt check the movable objets that led to reservoir and to opening north antichamber door later )
I found only 1 letter ( boudoir ) and not any terminal access.
I know there is still a LOT to uncover indeed but I even struggle to get good items into workshop to break walls, all 8 classrooms, or garage + car key + garage door opened combo in the same run
I feel like getting to room 46 didn't change anything except the credits and I expected a little clue or a general direction into what to search for next. Even Rupus doesn't seem (for now) to be of some help but only seems to talk about lore (maybe I am wrong).
I may be bad at drafting because I'm too focused into one specific thing i want to check or do and not "go with the flow", and I'm afraid to be bored at one point, even though as you guys said this game is really good and enjoyable.

[CoLS Firestar]

I adore this game. My notebook is filled with mini goals of rooms that I need together. (Tomb and Lady Chambers, Garage and Breaker Box, Pump room and power etc.)

If you have concrete goals like "I must do X in this run", you're just going to have a bad time. Even on my worst runs where I didn't cross anything off, there was something new to read, unlock or fit into another puzzle. There was always something to upgrade or make the next run easier. I love learning and discovering. Yes the beginning of the game is rough, but there's SO MANY things that help you along the way. Multiple power sources , Allowance tokens that make gold trivial, Upgrades so the room that was a burden becomes a boon
However, I'm from an era where 60 hour games were considered good because it meant more time for your money so I'm used to longer stretches.

[NorionV]

CoLS Firestar lähetti viestin:

I adore this game. My notebook is filled with mini goals of rooms that I need together. (Tomb and Lady Chambers, Garage and Breaker Box, Pump room and power etc.)

If you have concrete goals like "I must do X in this run", you're just going to have a bad time. Even on my worst runs where I didn't cross anything off, there was something new to read, unlock or fit into another puzzle. There was always something to upgrade or make the next run easier. I love learning and discovering. Yes the beginning of the game is rough, but there's SO MANY things that help you along the way. Multiple power sources , Allowance tokens that make gold trivial, Upgrades so the room that was a burden becomes a boon
However, I'm from an era where 60 hour games were considered good because it meant more time for your money so I'm used to longer stretches.

We still get plenty of games with a lot of content.

The problem here is that the RNG is the content. It's just frustrating padding. It's not fun or interesting to deal with.

It's a pity because the game would be a serious hit for 2025 if RNG wasn't constantly getting in the way.